Halifax - getting serious now

[tortilla]

Hi all

I need some advice please

I asked for a copy of my agreement - they sent me T&C etc - I said not good enough account in dispute, asked again with a letter from site - they sent me this, I need to know how to respond please someone.

 

Cheers

 

Help I don't know how to attach a word doc.

[davey77]

Try using photobucket.com to attach to the thread. Once you have loaded the image to that site copy the link to this button here:

 

[tortilla]

Thanks davey i'll try that

cheers

[tortilla]

I'll try this:

 

Dear…..

Thank you for your letter of….. and firstly accept my apologies for the delay in replying.

According to our records, we supplied a signed statement of account, copies of the agreement in place at the time the account was opened and the one currently in place on ……

The regulations define what is required of a “copy”. Whilst regulation 3 provides “every copy” of an executed agreement…. shall be a true copy”. Regulation 3(2)(b) provides that a copy can omit any signature box, signature or date of signature.

We have therefore supplied a copy of the agreement complying with section 78 which contains all the prescribed terms, a description of how the credit limit will be calculated, states the names and address of the parties and all original terms and conditions. The copy agreement provided does not show the signatures of both parties as this element is specifically excluded from being required by regulation 3(2)(b) of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983.

You have stated that “Subject to section 127(3) of the Act the court has no discretion to make an enforcement order when there is a breach of this nature”, however your agreement was executed on …. 2003 and section 127(3) was repealed on 6th April 2007.

As stated in Wilson & Others V Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (2003), referred to in your letter, Lord Nicholls confirmed that even if an agreement to be unenforceable, then that fact “does not deprive a regulated agreement of all legal effect” and that the debtor may hold the creditor to the agreement.

Despite claiming to give the bank notice that the account is in dispute, you have given no valid reason to dispute the debt. Please note, you have no contractual or statutory right to withhold payment to your account. As such it seems clear there is no dispute over the fact that the funds borrowed are required to be repaid or the terms on which that repayment is due. Even if the agreement was not enforceable, which is not the case here, it is clear from case law, this only prevents one party from enforcing the agreement through the courts, it does not prevent Collections activity or the placing of information on the credit file.

Your account is currently in arrears and we will continue to ask to rectify this default and we reserve the right to notify credit reference agencies accordingly. For the avoidance of doubt the Consumer Credit Act does not prohibit collection activity when an account is in dispute.

I am declining your request to remove any detrimental information held on your credit file in relation to this credit card account. In signing the credit card agreement, you did give your agreement and consent to the processing of your information. It is clear that by signing the agreement, the customer agrees to their data being used as set out. This is also in compliance with the Data Protection Act. Unfortunately, as a credit file is a true reflection of the conduct of an account, I am unable to amend this information.

I hope this clarifies our position on the matter

Yours faithfully

 

Sorted

 

HELP PLEASE I urgently need to know what to reply

 

Thanks all

 

Cheers

[davey77]

Some of what they say is right, some of it junk. Standard fob off letter really. What year was this application?

 

What exactly did they send in response to the CCA? Can you post it up?

[tortilla]

Sorry been so long, hopefully here come all the stuff they sent me, hope someone can advice me please.

[GhostDebt]

Hi tortilla, you will need to repost the document with the personal data removed as photobucket have removed it.

 

We have had similar from them and sent responses which we can post up for you later if applicable after seeing the edited document.

[tortilla]

[tortilla]

Hi GhostDebt

 

The image has no personal info on it?

[tosh1]

Hi Tortilla

 

have you been sent any sort of cca, maybe it has application form on it?

 

Tosh1

[tortilla]

Hi all me again

still cant seem to post any docs, so have been having a good look round and it seems that they have sent me the same as they sent Fingers60 (i hope you dont mind me taking your name in vain, or indeed quoting your post) except a copy of the application. Still trying to find another way to post docs as photobucket wont let me, any suggestions.

 

Cheers and thanks all

[davey77]

I don't why photobucket isn't working for you. It doesn't like PDFs but is ok with jpegs. Have you checked the file format.

 

Try searching for image hosting on a search engine.

The only other one i have seen people use is ImageShack® - Image Hosting

[tortilla]

Thanks davey77 I'll try it.

[babydoll0141917]

subbing

[LB145]

I am new to this - so apologies for jumping on someones thread - not sure how to start a new one - I am trying to get info and my head is spinning round! Not sure if I am doing this right. Can anyone advise please?

 

Requested Credit Agreement from the Halifax and received an letter in response to my request - no signed agreement but they enclosed a typed document which they state is a copy of my executed agreement, a copy of my current terms and conditions and a signed statement of my account. Also this paragraph in the letter

 

" The copy of the agreement enclosed with this letter complies with the requirements of the Consumer Credit (Cancellatin Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (the "Regulations"). Regulation 3(2)(b) provides that a copy can omit any signature box, signature or date of signature. In summary we are not required to produce a copy with your clients signature on it. By providing a copy of this agreement complying witht he requirements of the Regulations the agreement remains enforceable.

 

By providing you with the documents attached to this letter, we have satisfield our obligation to provide a copy of the executed agreement under section78. As such, the agreement you have with us is fully enforceable and we shall continue to treat it as such. We will not be entering into any further correspondence with you regarding the requirements relating to the provision of copy agreements.

 

Finally, we must remind you that failure to make payments under this agreement will result in collection activities and any default may also be reported to credit reference agencies."

 

What should be my next response?

[London000]

I'll try this:

 

Dear…..

 

Thank you for your letter of….. and firstly accept my apologies for the delay in replying.

 

According to our records, we supplied a signed statement of account, copies of the agreement in place at the time the account was opened and the one currently in place on ……

 

The regulations define what is required of a “copy”. Whilst regulation 3 provides “every copy” of an executed agreement…. shall be a true copy”. Regulation 3(2)(b) provides that a copy can omit any signature box, signature or date of signature.

 

We have therefore supplied a copy of the agreement complying with section 78 which contains all the prescribed terms, a description of how the credit limit will be calculated, states the names and address of the parties and all original terms and conditions. The copy agreement provided does not show the signatures of both parties as this element is specifically excluded from being required by regulation 3(2)(b) of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983.

 

You have stated that “Subject to section 127(3) of the Act the court has no discretion to make an enforcement order when there is a breach of this nature”, however your agreement was executed on …. 2003 and section 127(3) was repealed on 6th April 2007.

 

As stated in Wilson & Others V Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (2003), referred to in your letter, Lord Nicholls confirmed that even if an agreement to be unenforceable, then that fact “does not deprive a regulated agreement of all legal effect” and that the debtor may hold the creditor to the agreement.

 

Despite claiming to give the bank notice that the account is in dispute, you have given no valid reason to dispute the debt. Please note, you have no contractual or statutory right to withhold payment to your account. As such it seems clear there is no dispute over the fact that the funds borrowed are required to be repaid or the terms on which that repayment is due. Even if the agreement was not enforceable, which is not the case here, it is clear from case law, this only prevents one party from enforcing the agreement through the courts, it does not prevent Collections activity or the placing of information on the credit file.

 

Your account is currently in arrears and we will continue to ask to rectify this default and we reserve the right to notify credit reference agencies accordingly. For the avoidance of doubt the Consumer Credit Act does not prohibit collection activity when an account is in dispute.

 

I am declining your request to remove any detrimental information held on your credit file in relation to this credit card account. In signing the credit card agreement, you did give your agreement and consent to the processing of your information. It is clear that by signing the agreement, the customer agrees to their data being used as set out. This is also in compliance with the Data Protection Act. Unfortunately, as a credit file is a true reflection of the conduct of an account, I am unable to amend this information.

 

I hope this clarifies our position on the matter

 

Yours faithfully

 

Sorted

 

HELP PLEASE I urgently need to know what to reply

 

Thanks all

 

Cheers

 

Hi tortilla,

I am in the same situation at the moment. They did send me exactly the same thing almost: an aplication signed by me back in 97, a statement of account(but it is a new one) and I was under the impression that it should have been provided by Halifax at the time you opened this account together with the Credit card agreement (which they have also enclosed and obviously a new one but not signed). It is what they have sent you as well??? Have a look at the link below which is mine: ...wait i have to go back to copy it

http:// href="Halifax3 picture by americaninparis - Photobucket" target="_blank">

 

They have given me till 14 MAY then they said they will divert me to the Collectors.

I have already typed one but I am going to use the CPR...at least I will show that I am trying to get the agreement.

I do not know if it is good as I did not have any reply yet but by tomorrow I have to give them an answer although they said that they will not correspond with me anymore.....very good...no more money from me, and that is for the last 2 months as well....

Good luck,

DD

Edited May 12, 2009 by London000

[tortilla]

Now i'm going to try image shack,

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/4623/halifax001.jpg

 

success I hope

[pendle]

hello

i am having a lot of problems with the halifax credit card company, i cant afford to repay the amount owned. I am not working at the moment, if the debt has been more than 6 years, does it get wiped?

your pendle

[tortilla]

Now i'm cookin, here come the rest i hope.

 

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[tortilla]

Hi to LB145, London000 and pendle,

 

i'm sorry you're asking me questions i don't have the expertise to answer, best advice i can give is start your own threads, post all the information you have and someone who does know will be along to help.

 

keep the faith

 

cheers

[davey77]

Pendle and Lb145.. As tortilla says, best to start your own threads that way you will get some folks helping.

 

The Halifax thread is here:

Halifax Bank and Bank of Scotland - The Consumer Forums

 

Near the top left of that page is the 'New Thread' button that should get you started.

 

Tortilla.. what date is the original application for this?

[tortilla]

I'm sorry, at work at the moment, can't check, best guess about 5-6 years.

[davey77]

No worries. Definitely pre april 2007 then.

 

Haven't been through your links with a fine tooth comb but can't see any signatures and that looks like it's dated 0608 from the number on the last page. So what they have sent is the varied unsigned(?) agreement.

 

Not enforceable without a signature and not the original but.. what they have supplied probably complies with their duty under Section 78.

 

Saying they have failed under Section 78 to supply you information isn't going to wash so you need to move away from S 78 and request the Original Properly Executed Credit Card Agreement. Something along the lines of:

 

After reviewing the documentation sent in response to my Section 78 request for information relating to the above account and after Legal Advice i note what you have supplied may, or may not, comply with Section 78 of the CCA1974 but in what you have supplied you have failed to produce a document signed myself that contains the prescribed terms as per section 61(a) and section 127(3) of the CCA 1974.

 

I am also aware that there are certain terms that are required to be within the “Agreement” and should these terms be mis-stated or not present within the Original documentation then agreement can be rendered irredeemably unenforceable in law and i therefore refer you to the following of which, as a large financial organisation, i am sure you are fully aware of:

 

s61(a) CCA - Signing of agreement:

(1) A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and

© the document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible.

s127(3) CCA:

(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

I understand that section 78(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 sets out clearly what is required to comply with my request and quote “shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it” For clarification I require a copy of the agreement, any terms and conditions from the time when the agreement was executed together with a copy of current terms and conditions and a copy of the cancellation notice if the agreement refers to “Your Right to Cancel” within it. I also require a statement of account as laid out also within Section 78(1). If there weren’t any terms and conditions then please confirm this in your response

 

I am aware that the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557) at Regulation 3 allows the Signature box and signature to be omitted in a copy document but the copy document must contain all the terms off the agreement contained within the signed executed original document

 

I should also like to draw your attention to the decision in Wilson v Hurstanger (2007) EWCA Civ 299:

 

"...Schedule 6 is to ensure that, as an inflexible condition of enforceability, certain basic minimum terms are included which the parties (with the benefit of legal advice if necessary) and/or the court can identify within the four corners of the agreement. Those minimum provisions combined with the requirement under section 61 that all the terms should be in a single document, and backed up by the provisions of section 127 (3), ensure that these core terms are expressly set out in the agreement itself:

they cannot be orally agreed; they cannot be found in another document; they cannot be implied; and above all they cannot be in the slightest mis-stated. As a matter of policy, the lender is denied any room for manoeuvre in respect of them."

 

In light of the above I respectfully request that you provide a copy of the original agreement signed by myself that you hold on file and while I accept that you can omit the signature box for the purposes of compliance with my request, you will be aware that any challenge to the agreement in court would require the signed copy of the original agreement. If you still reject this, please provide clarification on the status of the Original Credit Agreement and confirm either that you hold the original signed agreement on file or a copy of it on microfliche or that you no longer hold the file.

 

I look forward to receiving the documentation requested and within the spirit of the Civil Procedure Rules shall allow 21 days for your reply.

[tortilla]

Thank you so much davey77, i shall sort something along those lines ASAP.

 

cheers

[tortilla]

Thanks i sent your letter Davey, getting some phone calls now, i'm polite but tell them to respond to my letters and hang up. i thought i'd post the rest of the stuff from halifax, thought it might help someone help me.

Cheers all

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