Invalid Default Notices

[Guest]

imo.

heftyhippo is correct in that, depending on the circumstances, an agreement can be rescinded. and unlawful termination is possible. unlawful term'n. is also known as 'rescission for breach' whereby an agreement is 'rescinded' to the point of the breach.

Edited September 28, 2010 by Ford

[Guest]

re cpr 38.7, (as discussed above), etc, see this thread below for an eg. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?235502

Edited September 28, 2010 by Ford
typo

[basa48]

I am sure that not many of you are still under the impression that there is any such thing as a rescission of agreement on a credit agreement, if you are I suggest you look up the term for yourself , rescission requires the agreement is taken back to before it was executed, hardly possible when there is n active contract which there will always be as long as a sum remains unpaid.

No I think you mean unlawful termination also impossible on a credit card or fixed sum come to that

Peter

 

As HH explained the removal of a credit facility following an invalid DN is 'repudiation' - in fact 'anticipatory repudiation' of the contract. But I'm sure you knew that I accepted all of my creditors repudiations as they arose - well except one who did it right !

[pumpytums]

At the end of the day if an average man receives a letter from a creditor stating, the account is now terminated and you owe us X. Will he suddenly thing well that's clearly against the Statute laid down by parliament s87 of the consumer credit act 1974.

 

Nope.

 

If you have sent me a recipe for Mr Kipling's fondant fancies headed very important would I have known the difference from an invalid default notice? Not 16 months ago but I know that I like fondant fancies.

 

Can a creditor terminate a Consumer credit agreement for a breach by the creditor without issuing a valid default notice. Well nope but If you have a letter stating the account is terminated and you must pay us £x otherwise we will send field agents to visit your home, bailiffs to knock on your door and may even sell your home what in heavens name are you supposed to think? That account is certainly not terminated in the correct manner, give me a break.

 

How about if a DCA sends you a letter after issuing a claim stating if you sign the following letter all the pain can stop:

 

"It is our intention to proceed to Judgment in this matter and hereby enclose a letter for your

consideration. By signing and returning this to us you will be admitting the debt in full and

consenting to Judgment being entered. Upon Judgment being obtained we will look to make an

application to the Court for a Charging Order as a means of securing the outstanding balance

against your property. We will then revert back to you so that an amicable payment

arrangement can be reached."

 

Or one saying:

 

"We write to inform you that we have decided to commence legal proceedings against you to

recover the following debt without further reference to you. We will issue a claim against you in

the County Court within 9 days.

As you are a homeowner once we have obtained a judgment we will commence action to

secure our claim by applying for a Charging Order. A Charging Order will give us a legal

interest in your property, which will require you to settle our claim before any sale or disposal

can take place.

You may be liable for the Costs of any action we take and for Statutory Interest on the balance.

We will also impose a maximum fee of £xx, which you will be liable for.

IF YOU WISH TO PREVENT THIS COURSE OF ACTION PAYMENT MUST BE RECEIVED IN

FULL WITHIN THE 9-DAY PERIOD."

 

or this

 

We have attempted to contact you on a number of occasions but despite our best efforts the outstanding

balance of xx remains unpaid. If this is an oversight on your part please telephone us on xx so that we can resolve this matter.

If you continue to choose not to contact us we will have no option but to make a decision on your account

without the benefit of your input.

Our decision will be to either refer this account to an external debt collection company who may use a

field agent to visit your home or pass the account to our own Liligation team for recovery via the County

Court system.

It is important that you understand that xx are fully entitled to commence Legal Action to

recover thiS sum. In addition thiS balance will further increase via statutory Interest and court costs and

fees, which you will be liable for.

Legal Action: This could result in a County Court claim being issued against you. Once a Judgment has

been obtained we can consider further enforcement action to recover these monies Enforcement Will

take one of the following forms:-

1. CHARGE ON YOUR PROPERTY - this could result in an order for the sale of the property.

2. ATTACHMENT OF EARNINGS - if you are in paid employment a Court order may be obtained

so that your employer pays to us directly the money that you owe.

3. WARRANT OF EXECUTION - this could result in the seizure of goods from your property to the

value of the warrant by a County Court Bailiff or High Court Sheriff

Please contact an Account Officer on the number above to avoid unnecessary further action being taken

without us haVing the opportunity of diSCUSSing thiS account With you.

 

 

Now explain to me after getting such a barrage of threats most against the guidelines may I add how anyone can think well bugger me that account isn't terminated and they are not allowed demanding sums yet due. Most people including myself was scared stiff. At one point and I've never told anyone this I thought of ending it all. Luckily I'm a much stronger person now I made it to the other side. I can't afford therapy I can't afford a lawyer.

 

So please before spouting off gobbledygook please think of the impact you may have on others. The point is don't steal people twigs just make you feel better. Certain companies the one above for example has no interest in settling or payment plans.

 

No back on track.

 

If I was a Creditor and would roll over and allow the odd U/R because the alternative as mentioned above would prove chaotic.

 

Imagine the scenario

 

 

Have you paid a debt of in full after receiving a letter demanding the full amount?

 

Have you received a CCJ for the full amount of a debt?

 

Have you received a charging order on your property?

 

Have you had a vehicle repossessed?

 

Have bailiffs visited your home for a consumer debt and took away property?

 

If so call 0800- is my default is it valid

 

Get the picture

 

The recent episode where a group of hackers released certain information about satellite customers sharing adult films. Notice how the particular law firm targeted adult films? Why not Hollywood blockbusters, because of the embarrassment factor. Where did they get £500 fine from? I'm sorry but what that particular law firm did was paramount to blackmail. Pay us £500 or you may go to court and explain why you shared skimpy hot tub 10 with Labradors. I congratulate those hackers from the bottom of my heart because now the particular law firm is going to get nailed for £500,000 and potentially every single customer on that list could also nail them. Great.

 

Did anyone see Watchdog with Santander, they basically allowed an old lady to right off her loan because of her health. Next thing you know MR/MRS DCA are sending threats. I wonder if they even bothered to send a default notice?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/watchdog/2010/09/santander_service.html#more

 

Human error, yeah right.

 

People get into financial difficulties they attempt to come to an arrangement most times they are turned down. I'm sorry but when did anyone see a credit card application that stated if you don't keep up repayments your home may be at risk.

 

Pumpytums

[foolishgirl]

Excellent pumpytums!

And you've made me smile this morning.

[Bigdebtor]

I've been helping Bobogosing on her various threads. Can some of you please have a look at this link and see if you feel this is an unlawful termination?

 

I'm not sure if the DN actually gave enough time - 17 days - also no specific date quoted.

 

Thanks for any input you can give her. As I said before I am now totally confused as to what the real story now is with TN's (or no TN' s- just a demand from 1st credit for full balance to be repaid now) on the back of what I think is a marginally a dodgy DN(?).

 

BD

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?276506-Help-needed-for-f-amp-f-settlement-with-northern-rock-please!&p=3141538&viewfull=1#post3141538

[Gallahad]

Well said Pumps, you have certainly given my tum a pump to start the day:-D

G

[Guest HeftyHippo]

sorry pumpty, for once I am unable to understand your usually excellent and informed posts, and hence seem to be the odd one out.

however, you comment on people getting draconian letters threatening all sorts of legal action, eviction etc, and suggest (if I understand that part of the post) that people should know its false, maybe you say that people wont know the threats are false.

 

I'd just like to point out that plenty of newcomers and some not so new, come on here because they have spoken to a DCA and received exactly those threats of bailiffs being sent round if they dont pay up. so maybe after a bit of experience we know such threats are bunkum, but plenty of people don't. Lets face it, if the DCAs etc got the feed back from their victims that their threats weren't being taken seriously, they would come up with something new. Obviously, the DCAs feel those threats have some effect. I may be agreeing with you, or disagreeing with the gist of your post because I didnt quite follow it ( I think I'm agreeing)

Edited September 29, 2010 by HeftyHippo

[charlie*]

Hi guys, it's a while since I came sniffing around looking for some advice but I would like some now if that's possible...

 

We have a CCA that looks to me as though it does comply although there was only one Prescribed Term on the app form, the reverse side covered everything else - filled the darned page in fact with tiny print, very hard to read - if I can make the scanner work I'll try and put it up. In the beginning a year ago it was suggested that it did not comply, but now I've seen a few, I am not too sure.

 

In the meantime we did receive a DN that was not enforceable (the remedy time was 5 days short) and I did write to the OC accepting their repudiation (thanks to DD at that time) - but now, they've sold the debt to a very well known DCA who are asking for proposals.

 

In fact, in my family their are a 'few' at this stage - we're just waiting to hear from the various DCA's - one of the OC's actually terminated the day after the DN date.

 

I've spent hours searching, gradually getting more and more depressed but I just cannot find the kind of letter I would write to the DCA about the DN. If anyone has any templates or ideas, we'd be most grateful.

 

Many thanks,

 

charlie

[Bigdebtor]

Charlie

 

I think I saw a sample letter in this thread a few months ago - but can't narrow it down any further than that.

 

BD

[pumpytums]

sorry pumpty, for once I am unable to understand your usually excellent and informed posts, and hence seem to be the odd one out.

however, you comment on people getting draconian letters threatening all sorts of legal action, eviction etc, and suggest (if I understand that part of the post) that people should know its false, maybe you say that people wont know the threats are false.

 

I'd just like to point out that plenty of newcomers and some not so new, come on here because they have spoken to a DCA and received exactly those threats of bailiffs being sent round if they dont pay up. so maybe after a by of experience we know such threats are bunkum, but plenty of people don't. Lets face it, if the DCAs etc got the feed back from their victims that they're threats weren't being taken seriously, they would come up with something new. Obviously, the DCAs feel those threats have some effect. I may be agreeing with you, or diagreeing with the gist of your post because I didnt quite follow it ( I think I'm agreeing)

 

Sorry HH,

I went off on one slightly.

 

The threats in their letters in this case were actually real, so how a company can then turn round after I wrote to them in a registered letter informing them of my concern over a missing DN and refer to the whole sorry episode as an "oversight" is beyond me.

 

If there was ever a case of company not wanting to be bound by either the contract or the CCA that's what happened to me in my case.

 

Of course the fact that they have now issued a DN now makes everything OK in their eyes. I wonder if a judge would feel the same? One can hope not.

 

Pumpytums

[Dotty50]

It's healthy to release the anger Pumpytums and get it off your chest.

 

As you say, the letters these people send out are awful and cause so much grief for people who haven't got a clue. They really should be brought into line or closed down asap!

[Scrapper]

Bump

 

Can someone take a look at post #4810 asI'm not sure what to do next and after he received the call yesterday the storm is coming that's for sure.

 

Thanks as always

 

Scrapper Coco 8-)

[Guest HeftyHippo]

Quite understandable pupmty. I recently wrote to the chief exec of a bank whose staff were adamant that the reconstructed agreement met their CCA obligations and allowed them to proceed to take legal action that I would agree in advance, "that if a court did enforce the reconstruced document, not only would I pay the whole balance, but I would allow him or someone of his choosing to forceably insert the document up my a'r *', as long as he agreed in advance that if the court didn't agree it was enforceable, that he should submit himself to the same fate". Not surprisingly, there hasn't been a response.

 

These banks lie, mislead and cheat and the so called regulators do nothing about it, and sadly, many people are taken in by their lies.

 

(and yes, the crude vernacular was used in the letter, without any obscuration)

Edited September 29, 2010 by HeftyHippo

[basa48]

These banks lie, mislead and cheat and the so called regulators do nothing about it, and sadly, many people are taken in by their lies.

 

The greatest problem many of us experience is inexperience. We all have to learn this trade from scratch, it can be very complex and the goal posts are constantly moving.

 

First off any potential disputing a liability for a debt HAS to be based on sound argument. It is no good disputing an agreement just because a 'T' wasn't crossed or an 'i' dotted. Or disputing a DN because the arrears was 15 pence out and the remedy date a day out! You quite rightly would get royally screwed!

 

You should also be firm and CORRECT in everything you write in disputing a debt. Some DCAs will spot a 'newbie' a mile off and go for the throat.

 

I recall with great discomfort some of the letters I wrote a year ago, spouting some crap that the agreement was unenforceable and whilst in dispute you can't do this and you can't do that, yada, yada, yada!!! Well yes they could and yes they did!

 

Still grasshopper has learned fast. Whether it will save me from the court shredder remains to be seen!!

 

(and yes, the crude vernacular was used in the letter, without any obscuration)

 

Cheeky!!!

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Crockie,

 

(and this is for everyone else too who may be new to this site): NEVER, NEVER, NEVER return the credit card.

 

There have been cases where the solicitors acting for the card company/bank have produced in court the cut up card showing the debtor's signature and have persuaded judges to rule in their favour regardless of any other issues.

 

Keep it, chuck it, but never send it back to them.

 

DDxx

[foreveraloe]

An OC can legally sell an account without issuing a DN, legally the DCA can ask you to make payments however they cannot demand monies not yet due without a valid DN. If they issue a claim and the DN is fatally flawed or doesn't exist then they cannot gain judgement. What happens as a result after they discontinue is anyone's guess however.

 

A DCA can only take you to court if is an absolute assignment unless the OC joins them in the action.

 

Pumpytums

 

 

Well, sadly in my case, the OC has passed the account to a DCA. No DN was ever received and the DCA has even admitted that they have no CCA and "equitable assignment", yet still they take court action!!

 

Go down all the usual routes, requesting documents etc, hoping they will discontinue due to lack of documentary proof, but no - still they continue. Upshot is court case carries on, hearing fixed!!!

 

How do you get out of that one???

[Gallahad]

Which Dca is that?

G

[foreveraloe]

Which Dca is that?

G

 

I'd rather not say on a open forum as they monitor this site!!!

[Gallahad]

Ok fair does

G

[basa48]

Well, sadly in my case, the OC has passed the account to a DCA. No DN was ever received and the DCA has even admitted that they have no CCA and "equitable assignment", yet still they take court action!!

 

Go down all the usual routes, requesting documents etc, hoping they will discontinue due to lack of documentary proof, but no - still they continue. Upshot is court case carries on, hearing fixed!!!

 

How do you get out of that one???

 

If it is correct they have no DN, no agreement and only equitable assignment, they cannot possibly make a case.

[foreveraloe]

If it is correct they have no DN, no agreement and only equitable assignment, they cannot possibly make a case.

 

 

Yeah that's exactly what I thought, but we still find ourselves in Court!!! Together with the Judge lottery, who knows what will happen!!!! They think a "reconstituted" T&C's document is a credit agreement!!

[Bigdebtor]

Can you start a new thread and put a link on here - so you can get specific advice?

 

At first sight it would seem that this case can be killed at birth - but a lot more info needed to get the ammo prepared for you.

 

BD

[foreveraloe]

Can you start a new thread and put a link on here - so you can get specific advice?

 

At first sight it would seem that this case can be killed at birth - but a lot more info needed to get the ammo prepared for you.

 

 

BD

 

I already have a thread, but it's gone so far now and the hearing is very very close, I doubt that much can be done!! I followed all the advice, read pages and pages of info, got my head spinning, blood boiling and at the end of the day, it's down to the Judge and what he thinks applies. After reading several threads on here with very similar cases where they lost, I don't hold out much hope sadly!!

[Bigdebtor]

Put a link in here ASAP - and alert the site team with details of the case. You need specific help on your own case - not just cutting and pasting from others. It's not too late!

 

BD