Newlyns and fake charge?

[Guest Happy Contrails]

I wouldn't threaten a Reg 46 complaint because this is to do with irregular distress and none has taken place. I have to admit I have not come accross a firm concealing the name of the bailiff in charge, but I wouldn't mention Form 4 to them.

 

Tact and diplomacy is thge key, write down the name of the person you speak to, if they still refuse to provide the name of the bailiff then you can make a complaint to police under Section 4 of the Criminal Law Act 1967 because the firm is harbouring a person who is suspected of committing offences under Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006. Keep that bailiffs document showing the unlawful fees, it will be the principle evidence.

[k1mmie]

Just called Newlyn. Was told it was an area bailiff and they dont have the details to hand. If I want any further information I have to write in, but it will not stop further action!

 

I have a problem now, as I have downloaded the Form 4, but have no name to complain about. The person on the phone would not gve his name either. What can I do now?

[Guest Happy Contrails]

Contact police and tell them what you have told us here. If you are fobbed off then start writing everything down including names of who you speak to, quote legislation as a last resort. If the police cannot identify the name of the bailiff, they can question a director of the firm because he is liable for the actions of his contractors.

 

Write to the bailiff firm as they have asked, a one liner - Please tell me the name of the bailiff in charge - and get a certificate of posting at the post office. If the bailiffs say they didn't get your letter then you are laughing.

 

You can make a simple complaint to the council and quickly escalate to the Local Government Ombudsman, from experience they have plenty of clout.

[casbah]

ok looks like newlyns have been busy little bees.

Everyone suggests issuing a complaint 4 against the bailiff, so I just want to shed a little more light on this complaint 4.

When you download the form it says "complaint against a certificated bailiff (distress for Rent Rules 1988 Rule 8) so I googled this act and it says on there that..............

 

Under section 12, paragraph 2, of the rules it states,

“LEVY and REMOVAL”

A Bailiff levying distress shall deliver to the tenant, or leave on the premises where distress is levied, a memorandum in Form 7 identifying the bailiff and specifying in an Inventory the goods distrained on and setting out the amounts for which the distress is levied and the fees, charges and expenses authorised by these Rules and being actually and necessarily incurred under these rules”

So I believe that if no form 7 has been left no case for the bailiff.

I, too, am fighting newlyns and have today sent this letter off giving them 14 days to provide me with copies of the form 7 and the inventories.

I'll let you know what happens

[k1mmie]

Good for you Casbah. I too will send them the same letter, and in the meantime I am writing to the council to make a complaint against them. What is the point in a local council using a bailiff firm 200 miles away, of course this now gives them an excuse to say it is palmed out to an external area bailiff.

[casbah]

kimmie

if you are in the garden of england send me a PM and we'll battle together

[freakyleaky]

Sending personal information via PM to people you don't know is not recomended.

Please keep as much information to the open forums as possible to avoid misunderstanding and/or possible mis leading advice that cannot be challenged or correted.

[k1mmie]

ok, update. Called HM Courts Service Headquarters, Enforcement Team. Explained I had no name but wanted to put a complaint in. They said write to your local LA who passed it on to them, with a complaint and explain why. In the meantime you can submit a Form 4 and explain that you have not got the name, but your reference with the company and they can then contact the company and ask them to provide it - so doing this now. Also, he gave me the contact details for the Civil Enforcement Agencies, with whom the baliffs register. He also advised me to write to Newlyn asking for his/her name and a list of charges. Once I have their reply I can then send it to the CEA for a complaint against Newlyn.

 

He also told me that what has already been posted, that they should leave a Form 7, which I told him, all I got was a printed headed letter. So another thing to get them on. I told the council in my email, that if Newlyn even try to say that they have contacted me in the past to uphold their charges, I have proof that is not the case by the nature of their letter.

 

Council emailed me back - sayng contact you within 10 days. Looks to me like they may be hearing from the courts before they contact me again! Let's hope!!!!!!!!!!!!

[casbah]

Way to go Kimmie!!!!!!!!!!! I too sent off my letter today ( a bit heart in mouth) I am so glad you have been told the same as I have.

I suspect my local council is going for imprisonment, so feeling a bit weak knee'd at the moment and was hoping there was someone who could boost my confidence, I still feel its a case of united we stand divide we fall, and if enough of us complain en mass then the courts may listen.

I have been told ( twice) that the judge won't do anything other than make the bailiff pay back the money, bailiffs make shed loads out of people that don't know their rights, so a few hundred quid back to one person probably means some other poor sucker is going to have a few ghost visits.

[k1mmie]

Today I get a letter from Newlyn dated 9th April - yeah right! Saying they are acting on behalf of local Authority and need to contact me (even though I called their office the other day, to ask for bailiff information. It is the kind of letter that looks like they are trying to trace someone and state " We are acting on behalf of the above local authority and need to contact ********.

 

We should be most grateful if you would be kind enough to provide us with a forwarding address for the above person, together with an appropriate date that this person vacated the premises, and the solicitors dealing with the sale/purchase if known.

 

Now, i'm p*****ed, as surely there is some breach of data protection here. This letter not only states with whom the debt is with but in Bold letters how much is outstanding and my council tax reference .

 

Luckily, I am still at this address, think they are miffed that their one letter did not scare me enough to get on the phone and make an arrangement.

 

Any advice please?

[Guest Happy Contrails]

Whats the question?

 

You have no legal obligation to furnish a bailiff with information.

[k1mmie]

Whats the question?

 

You have no legal obligation to furnish a bailiff with information.

 

Is there no breach of data protection here? They have effectively sent a letter to anyone, quoting my council tax reference number and the amount in big bold letters.

[k1mmie]

And they have added an extra £95 onto the amount ???????????

[Guest Happy Contrails]

The data protection Act is a set of data protection principles rather than hard & fast rules on how personal data is managed. I agree that posting a debt letter into a letterbox without knowing it will be seen exclusively by the debtor could be interpreted as negligent handling of data. Its not quite the same as leaving a memory stick database of names and credit card details on a bus.

 

The £95 is not allowed, the bailiff commits fraud by false representation so keep that document handy and make lots of copies, its crucial evidence and you have a right to report him to police and ask he is charged under Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006.

 

Phone the bailiff on his mobile and ask which court issued his certificate. Say you need this information to report him for fraud and you will be asking police to investigate. If the bailiff refuses to guive his name then the police can interview the director of the firm of bailiffs under caution. Hand the police the document showing the bailiffs fees he is charging you and quote the Amendment 5 of the Council Tax and Non-Domestic Rating (Amendment) (England) Regulations 2006. Attempting to defraud is the same offence.

 

Ask the council to take the debt back to council administration because you have a document proving their bailiff is a fraudster and a cheat and the matter is now with police. If the council fob you off with excuses then quickly make a complaint to the Local Government Ombudsman and ask for compensation for being defrauded by their bailiff contractor.

[k1mmie]

The bailiff did not leave a mobile number. I called the cpmpany, they said it was an area bailiff. The signature is a squiggle of one letter. The bailiffs said they did not have the details. I have written to them asking for them to justify their charges and the bailiffs details. I have also submitted a Form 4 to Northampton county court, as they claim that they can still contact the company and trace it through the reference number. I have also sent an email to my MP, asking him to intervene as it affects the credibility of the council if they use rogues like this.

 

They are constantly making it up as they go this company. To send the first levy on the 7th April, then this letter dated 9th (received 17th - so not true), doesn't make sense. The original letter gives you 5 days to contact them, so why would they send this out. They took a levy, so what 2 days later they now question if I am the correct person.

 

Also the Enforcement Officer at the Court service asked if I was given a form7 with the levy details, which is what I had read on here. I said it was just a photocopy of a headed piece of paper, and he said that is not right.

 

Any views?

Edited April 17, 2009 by k1mmie

[james C]

Happy Contrails

 

how do you stand when they bailiff company says they have attended, but havent. how can you prove they are committing fraud?

[Guest Happy Contrails]

The bailiff did not leave a mobile number. I called the cpmpany, they said it was an area bailiff. The signature is a squiggle of one letter

 

The firm is going to great length to conceal the identity of the bailiff, and that affirms criminal intent or mens rea.

 

Do keep us posted with your progress in getting your MP involved.

 

I cant comment on your Form 7 on whether its genuine or not.

 

James C: The burden of proof is with the debtor to show a bailiff did not make a visit giving rise to a fee. If you catch a bailiff pushing a document through your letterbox and leaving without making an effort to make contact with you then he commits an offence if he later charges you a fee pretending it is a visit. For this reason a GPS device (Marstons are big on this) is inadmissible in court because the bailiff must make a sworn affidavit to say he has made efforts to contact the debtor. If he lies on a sworn affidavit then he commits an offence under the Perjury Act 1911.

[k1mmie]

I had a reply from the MP Saturday morning, saying he would look into my case, as obviously this does not look good on the LA, and he will get back to me hopefully Monday.

 

Another complaint to the LA about the updated letter and charges was a standard reply, again, saying have passed it on to the recovery department. I don't personally believe the council are taking complaints against this company seriously enough! Hopefully this will now change when MP looks into it.

 

I also read somewhere that the council should give you some notice before passing your account for collection to the bailiffs. Is this is the case? Also how long should the bailiffs give you to make payment?

[chris600uk]

In the first place you can indeed pay the council direct BUT the statutory regulations provide that bailiff fees MUST be deducted first. For instance if a debt is £200 and bailiffs fees are £100 and payment of £200 was paid to the council, this DOES NOT clear the Liability Order. This is because the council are obliged to RETURN £100 to the bailiff co to cover their fees. This means that there is a balance on the LIABILITY ORDER of £100 and bailiffs can....and will.....continue to enforce the debt.

 

I understood that section 45 ss 3 meant any enforcement stopped once payment to satisfy the Liability Order was made (or tendered) to the Council.

 

I understood that the relationship between the Council and it's agent/employee was a matter for the council only.

 

Did I get that wrong, or has something changed?

[chris600uk]

I still believe that the terms of Section 46 ss (1) and ss(4) mean that it can be used, I'll be very interested to hear what happens about a form 4 with no bailiffs name on it, it's been my understanding that if you have the name of the bailiff you use form 4 to complain about him, and if you don't have a name you use regulation 46 to complain about the council.

 

I think that a Subject Access Request would be a good idea.

 

It would also be interesting to see if a FOI request for the name of the bailiff was successful or not. I understand that it has a 20 working day deadline. It may also be possible that you could request any information held about the bailiff on behalf of the council including details of the certificate held by a bailiff, and the contractual relationship between the bailiff firm and the council.

All they can do is refuse it, but they have to give a reason.

Edited April 20, 2009 by chris600uk
spelling

[k1mmie]

Just had a letter from Northampton County court saying they have passed on a copy of my FOrm 4 complaint to Newlyn and await their response. They have 14 days before it is passed to the judge for his comments.

 

I have also informed the MP that I will not enter into any correspondence with the bailiffs and want the council to take the account back as I will pay direct to them.

 

So I would suggest if you file Form4's then you may at least get it brought to the judges atention that these companies are [causing problems] us all.

[k1mmie]

I got a letter from the council saying they had enclosed a list of the bailiffs charges. These are standard lists they send to all council tax defaulters, saying how much they are supposed to charge. We all know what they are supposed to charge - and that is entirely different to what they DO charge. Anyway they say call the company and set up a payment arrangement. SO I called Newlyn, they said straight away "oh so have you spoken to the bailiff and used his name (could not get this out of them before). I said no, how would I?" They said here is his mobile number and call him and it is at his discretion whether he accepts a payment arrangement. SO let a message for this guy to call. Now, this guy is representing Newlyn, yet they cannot set up a payment arrangement -this seems fishy!!!

 

Any advice on this please. Receiving council tax credit now, so I doubt he is going to want to accept £5 a week!!!!

[GamekeeperToPoacher]

Do not be mad.

 

£5 per month

 

GK

[k1mmie]

Just sent a copy of this letter to the court to add to my file, and a bit of extra reading for the judge. Also see how they explain an additional £95 in charges.

[k1mmie]

OK, so as suspected going on for Tuesday now, and no returned call from this bailiff. What do I do? Write to council saying they are refusing to talk to me let alone an offer and just make payments direct to them. They are useless. I have never heard of an area bailiff having the authority to make an arrangment and the company not even talk to you. In the meantime, ticking away for them to send a response to the courts!