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    • when mediation call they will ask the same 3 questions that are in their email you had to accept it going forward. simply state 'i do not have enough information from the claimant to make an informed decision upon mediation so i refuse. end of problem.  
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    • Which Court have you received the claim from ? Civil National Business CEntre Name of the Claimant ? Lowell Portfolio i Ltd How many defendant's  joint or self ? Self   Date of issue –  15 Feb 2024 Particulars of Claim What is the claim for – the reason they have issued the claim?  The claim is for the sum of £922 due by the Defendant under and agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 for a Capital One account with an account reference of [number with 16 digits] The Defendant failed to maintain contractual payments required by the agreement and a Default Notice was served under s.87(1) of the Consumer Credit ACt 1974 which has not been complied with. The debt was legally assigned to the claimant on 16-06-23, notice of which has been given to the defendant. The claim includes statutory interest under S.69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at a rate of 8% per annum from the date of assignment to the date of the issue of these proceedings in the sum of £49.15 The Claimant claims the sum of £972 What is the total value of the claim? £1112 Have you received prior notice of a claim being issued pursuant to paragraph 3 of the PAPDC (Pre Action Protocol) ? I dont know the details of the PAPDC to know if it was pursuant to paragraph 3, but I did receive a Letter of Claim with a questionaire/form to fill. Have you changed your address since the time at which the debt referred to in the claim was allegedly incurred? No Is the claim for - a Bank Account (Overdraft) or credit card or loan or catalogue or mobile phone account? Credit Card When did you enter into the original agreement before or after April 2007 ? no Do you recall how you entered into the agreement...On line /In branch/By post ? Online Is the debt showing on your credit reference files (Experian/Equifax /Etc...) ? Yes Has the claim been issued by the original creditor or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim. Assigned/purchaser Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? I was aware, I'm not certain I received a 'Notice of Assignment' from Capital One but may have been informed the account had been sold without such a title on the letter? Did you receive a Default Notice from the original creditor? Yes Have you been receiving statutory notices headed “Notice of Sums in Arrears”  or " Notice of Arrears "– at least once a year ? Not since the debt purchase, and not from Capital One. Why did you cease payments? I can't remember - it was the tail end of the pandemic and I may not have had enough income to keep up payments - I am self-employed and work in the event industry - at that time. I also had a bank account that didn't allow direct debits and may have just forgotten payments and became annoyed at fines for late payments. What was the date of your last payment? Appears to be 20/4/2022 Was there a dispute with the original creditor that remains unresolved? No Did you communicate any financial problems to the original creditor and make any attempt to enter into a debt management plan? No Here is my Defence: Defence - 1. The Defendant contends that the particulars of claim are vague and generic in nature. The Defendant accordingly sets out its case below and relies on CPR r 16.5 (3) in relation to any particular allegation to which a specific response has not been made. 2. Paragraph 1 is noted. I have in the past had an agreement with Capital One but do not recognise this specific account number or recollect any outstanding debt and have therefore requested clarification by way of a CPR 31.14 and section 78 request.. 3. Paragraph 2 is denied. I am unaware of having been served with a Default Notice pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974. 4. Paragraph 3 is denied. I am unaware of any legal assignment or Notice of Assignment pursuant to the Law and Property Act 1925 Section 136(1) 5. The Defendant has sent a request by way of a section 78 pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974, for a copy of the agreement, the Claimant has yet to comply and remains in default of said request. 6. A further request has been made via CPR 31.14 to the Claimants solicitor, requesting disclosure of documents on which the Claimant is basing their claim. The Claimant has not complied and to date nothing has been received. 7. It is therefore not accepted with regards to the Defendant owing any monies to the Claimant and the Claimant is put to strict proof to: a) show how the Defendant has entered into an agreement and; b) show how the Claimant has reached the amount claimed for and; c) show the nature of the breach and evidence by way of a Default Notice pursuant to sec 88 CCA1974 d) show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim 8. As per Civil Procedure 16.5 it is expected that the claimants prove the allegation that the money is owed 9. On the alternative, as the Claimant is an assignee of a debt, it is denied that the Claimant has the right to lay a claim due to contraventions of section 136 of the Law of Property Act and section 82A of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 10. By reasons of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief. .................. Please note that I had to write a defence quite quickly as I hit the deadline. At the time of writing the defence, I hadn't been able to find correspondence from Capital One, but had since found default letter etc. I submitted CCA request and CPR 31.14. However, I didn't get any proof of postage or use registered post for the CPR (an oversight) but did with the CCA request. I received a pack which included a letter from Overdales, going over the defence I'd filed, as well as letters of Lowells and reprints of letters from Capital One. But I have no idea if this pack is in response to the CCA request or the CPR ! I would have expected two separate responses ... although I do know they are both the same company. Looking over the pack today, and looking through old emails .. I find some discrepancies in the Capital One default letters (notice of default and Claim of default). They are both dated *before* an email I have stating that a default can be avoided. The one single page of agreement sent (so not the full agreement) has a 16 digit number at the top in small print, next to 'Capital One' which corresponds to a number called 'PURN' printed at the top of each of the 10 pages of ins and outs of the account (they're not official statements, but a list of monthly goings) yet no mention anywhere on either of the account number. I cant really scan them at the moment - I can later tomorrow, but that will be after the mediation call I'm sure. I guess I may be on my own for this mediation ... I am not certain the CCA request has been satisfied .. or if the CPR has been . And then I appear to have evidence that the Default notices provided are fabricated ? Yet, I do have (elsewhere ... not at home) Default letters from Capital One I can check ..
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Thanks for the swift reply.

 

It's complicated, but basically I was in Sustainable transport/School Travel, and thanks to Borris the entire team at TFL I dealt with got made redundant so I can't get an "official" letter from them. Also it's national rail who are prosecuting and not TFL.

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I know I have done nothing wrong

 

...except being 'caught' with a cancelled (invalid) ticket.

 

You picked the wrong one up; your are knowledgeable and experienced enough 'in the industry' to know it is madness to attempt such a thing as avoid an Oyster fare, cheap as they are; and that it is through your own (therefore potentially implicitly honest) actions (of querying the ATG error code) that you were caught.

 

At the end of the day of course, it's about mitigation rather than denial; unfortunately you were caught in the act of doing something which legally can- and maybe should be!- 'prosecuted to the full extent of the law'.

 

However the specific issue you raise about cancelled cards is certainly interesting although beyond my remit- the fact that you have potential evidence of a flaw (if it is a flaw) that TfL do not want publicised in what is ultimately an open Court may or may not may them consider a financial settlement rather than prosecution....

 

....good luck.

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Calling all the experts:

 

What is the typical and maximum sentence in a trial for 'intent to avoid a fare' if you plead not guilty and lose?

Can you plead guilty in a trial - there was an earlier thread where someone's guilty plea was rejected by the magistrates?

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Thanks for the swift reply.

 

It's complicated, but basically I was in Sustainable transport/School Travel, and thanks to Borris the entire team at TFL I dealt with got made redundant so I can't get an "official" letter from them. Also it's national rail who are prosecuting and not TFL.

 

So Boris paid for his f***ing bikes with your jobs?

 

W***er.

 

:mad2:

 

On edit: Sorry, no politics or religion. It's been a long day ;)

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'If you plead not guilty and lose', the potential fines, on a first offence charged under Section 5,3,a (or b, depending on the 'evidence') will start with the Magistrates looking at your weekly income. The fine is described as 'Band B'.

 

If you are paid £1,000.00 a week, your fine would be higher than if you are paid £300.00 a week.

 

The Court would also take into account any 'aggravating features', if there are any, the fine goes up, if there are clear mitigating features, the fine goes down.

 

In short, until the Chairman of the Magistrates sitting that day announces it, none of us know what the fine will be. If you consider the fine excessive, you can take the case to a Crown Court, and appeal against sentence.

 

However, if this story is accurate, there seems to be a defence against the charge. The Oyster card should show a record that it was 'topped up' and then 'tapped in'. The charge (5,3,a) specifies 'without previously paying the fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof'.

 

The prosecution will have a print of the Oyster history, on a 'not guilty plea', prosecution have to make 'full disclosure' of the evidence, including that which tends to undermine their case. At the time of making a not guilty plea, the defendant needs to give a brief explanation why they feel 'not guilty', and should make a request for full disclosure. (Request is not needed, the prosecution have a duty to make the disclosure, but 'being thorough' is always a good idea)

 

What bothers me slightly is the thought that prosecution might consider, whether they charge it or not, that all these Oysters that you mention are, in effect, 'stolen'. Before a professional will give 'full' advice, I think that he/she would want a frank discussion of the type that would not be 'proper' in an open forum.

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I was caught not touching-in my oyster card on the open-gate London Overground train. I wonder when should I start contact the TFL Procecutors Office to apologise and 'beg' for a out of court settlement. I wasn't given any paper work after the incident. please anyone can let me know what is their address?

 

I did a stupid thing and feel very thick to ask for help here, but never thought this could go beyond a penalty fare. I do regret and I lost sleep last night.

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I was caught not touching-in my oyster card on the open-gate London Overground train. I wonder when should I start contact the TFL Procecutors Office to apologise and 'beg' for a out of court settlement. I wasn't given any paper work after the incident. please anyone can let me know what is their address?

 

I did a stupid thing and feel very thick to ask for help here, but never thought this could go beyond a penalty fare. I do regret and I lost sleep last night.

You need to wait for TfL to contact you first, unless they already have done. Once you receive their letter you'll know exactly what it is they're prosecuting you for, and have the opportunity to put your case to them. If they have yet to contact you, and you try and contact them first, the likelyhood is that they'll not have a clue who you are, and wont be able to help you, especially so if the RPI hasn't submit his/her statement yet!

 

Also, why remind them of the incident?

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Hello again Scared. I just noticed you on another thread having a rant. You still seem to have at least 2 identical posts here and maybe the other 2 as well, so I've asked the site team to do an edit for you.

 

You sound as if you're in free fall from your last post, are you OK? I'm wondering if you've told your parents about the problem. Have you had a look for a possible template letter to send as I suggested earlier?

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Moved the dup from this thread.Will take a look for the other.

Have a happy and prosperous 2013 by avoiiding Payday loans. If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Advice offered by Martin3030 is not supported by any legal training or qualification.Members are advised to use the services of fully insured legal professionals when needed.

 

 

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....., if this story is accurate, there seems to be a defence against the charge. The Oyster card should show a record that it was 'topped up' and then 'tapped in'. The charge (5,3,a) specifies 'without previously paying the fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof'.

 

The prosecution will have a print of the Oyster history, on a 'not guilty plea', prosecution have to make 'full disclosure' of the evidence, including that which tends to undermine their case. At the time of making a not guilty plea, the defendant needs to give a brief explanation why they feel 'not guilty', and should make a request for full disclosure. (Request is not needed, the prosecution have a duty to make the disclosure, but 'being thorough' is always a good idea)

 

What bothers me slightly is the thought that prosecution might consider, whether they charge it or not, that all these Oysters that you mention are, in effect, 'stolen'. Before a professional will give 'full' advice, I think that he/she would want a frank discussion of the type that would not be 'proper' in an open forum.

 

I agree with Wriggler7 on this one. You need to have a frank discussion with the prosecution office staff and may need to take legal advice in respect of a defence.

 

If these Oysters were issued as a facility of your former employment and were cancelled when that was terminated, they should have been returned to TfL or destroyed.

 

I agree that it seems as though 'intent to avoid payment' would on the face of it, appear difficult to prove if your explanation is accurate, but this is much more complicated given that you do not appear to have any entitlement to hold the special type of Oyster that you were attempting to use.

 

I suggest that you immediately notify the prosecution that you are seeking legal advice and intend to contest the matter, but as Wriggler7 says, it is very difficult to offer any more specific advice than that. There are a great many issues to look at here and comments that could be made, but it would not be sensible to attempt to explore the case further here.

 

I believe that because you have already received a Summons, this is one of those cases where you do need expert advice and need to speak with the prosecutor promptly.

Edited by Old-CodJA
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I think the key to this is that the 'cardholder' reported the card as lost & it was hotlisted by TFL.

Although PAYG cards are transferrable, the 'cardholders' permission is needed for another to use it.

It is very difficult to give any useful advice without knowing what is contained within the interview under caution.

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There seem to be several 'concurrent' threads running here, so some general things:

 

'We' often advise that people wait for a letter from the 'prosecutor' before people do anything. One of the reasons for this is that until you do, you might not know who is prosecuting you!

 

If it was 'London Overground' staff that dealt with the alleged offence, it may be that you will get a letter from 'LOROL' prosecutions, who are (I think) based at Camden Road. If you alighted from a London Overground train at somewhere like Barking, and were spoken to by an Inspector, the case could be dealt with by c2c, who operate the station, London Overground, London Underground, British Transport Police or even Metropolitan Police. (Police will pass the prosecution work to the Crown Prosecution Service)

 

Each of these bodies deal with thousands of cases a year, and waiting for 'first contact' from them will supply you with a reference number and an address to write to.

 

If you are interviewed by (for example) a c2c Rail Inspector at Barking, he/she can report you for offences committed on 'the underground', but cannot issue a penalty fare unless the journey was clearly made only on a c2c service.

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Another 'question' in this thread relates to 'levels of fines' at Court. Yesterday, I sat through a very dreary list of railway byelaw offences at Basildon Magistrates. the 'cheapest' result was an absolute discharge, which surprised all of us, the defendant behaved quite badly in Court, and I was rather expecting a financial penalty, through to a fine of £195.00 (plus costs, £65.00, plus compensation, £5.20 plus £15.00 victim surcharge.)

 

There were some very odd amounts fined, some of the guilty pleas were fined £17.00, some of the 'proved in absence' cases were fine £88.00 and some £123.00. (All plus costs, compensation and victim surcharge) I am sure that there was a logic, but please don't ask me what that logic was.

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Incidentally, there was a reporter from the local paper in Court, encouraged to be there by one of the prosecuting authorities. Like me, she was obliged to sit through the whole day, as the cases that she wanted to here were evenly distributed through the list. She may write about all of the cases heard in open Court, including all the 'train fare' cases. The only case heard yesterday with reporting restrictions was a 'fail to send kid to school case', the restriction being in place to prevent the child from being 'identified'. All of the other cases can be reported in the press.

 

In two cases, the prosecuting authority will be making specific reports to other agencies. One was a licensed taxi driver, convicted of fraudulent claims for housing benefit. A report will be sent to the taxi licensing people, the other was a pub landlord convicted of failing to make deductions from earnings in respect of CSA orders, who will be reported to the local 'alcohol' licensing authority, in that case, the Borough Council.

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Hi!

Hope someone can help me....

I have been sent a fine from a London court of £485. It says I can pay it either by calling 03007909901 or directgov . uk / payacourtfine. I'm guessing I must have missed the previous letters because this letter is titled "Further steps notice"(threatning with certain actions if not payed in 10 days) and this is the first letter I've recieved! I live in a hostel so letters might get lost...but this is crazy.

 

The only thing I can think of that might have lead to this is me getting caught in the underground. Last year for a freedom ticket and this year for a child ticket. Both times I gave different adresses because I have been moving around a lot, so how they got my new adress I do not know at all.

 

Is this the normal procedure, sending out a court fine letter?

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Hi!

Hope someone can help me....

I have been sent a fine from a London court of £485. It says I can pay it either by calling 03007909901 or directgov . uk / payacourtfine. I'm guessing I must have missed the previous letters because this letter is titled "Further steps notice"(threatning with certain actions if not payed in 10 days) and this is the first letter I've recieved! I live in a hostel so letters might get lost...but this is crazy.

 

The only thing I can think of that might have lead to this is me getting caught in the underground. Last year for a freedom ticket and this year for a child ticket. Both times I gave different adresses because I have been moving around a lot, so how they got my new adress I do not know at all.

 

Is this the normal procedure, sending out a court fine letter?

It sounds as though there was a case heard in your absence, and you were subsequently found guilty. The initial fine might not have been £485. Sounds fairly normal to me, yes.
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If you were unaware of the court proceedings you should visit you local court (take the letter) and make a Statutory Declaration.

This is you taking the oath in the witness box & stating you didnt know about the proceedings, however you must be truthful or the consequences can far outweigh a train ticket conviction.

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If you were unaware of the court proceedings you should visit you local court (take the letter) and make a Statutory Declaration.

This is you taking the oath in the witness box & stating you didnt know about the proceedings, however you must be truthful or the consequences can far outweigh a train ticket conviction.

 

How can they find out if someone is lying or not in regards to not recieving paperwork? Would they see it as lying if someone states an adress when interviewed by revenue officer but then moves? Then almost 2yrs later makes a statutory declaration?

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Hi I need help/advice on this situation last month I was in a rush to go university in the morning i had a very early exam I had my oyster card and my little brothers under 14 oyster card in my pocket once getting to the station i heard a train coming and swiped through in a rush with the 1st oyster card i pulled out of my pocket which unfortunately was my brothers instead of my student oyster card. Anyways I got stopped by a ticket inspector i informed the inspector it was mistake i tried telling him i completely forget that my brother oyster card was in my pocket and it wasnt intending on using it. I had my own oyster card with a weeks pass on it. Anyways the inspector took my details down and said i would be reported for fare evasion. As i was in a massive rush i didnt sign the piece of paper he gave me on the day so I just went on my way. Anyways i got a letter through this week saying i can either pay the £60 fine or get a summons going to court. Technically i was in the wrong but i want to go court and fight this case seeing as i didnt sign the piece of paper on the day i think i have a really good chance in court for the basis that they wouldnt be able to prove it was me on the day. I know it may sound stupid but i want to challenge TFL prosecution case. Ive never been in trouble with them before it was a genuine mistake i do realise if i lose the court case then i will face a bigger fine and possibly a criminal conviction (One which i didnt possibly want or need) but i refuse to accept im guility and pay a joke of a fine for a genuine mistake. I just wanted to ask peoples views what do you reckon i should do? Your help and views will be much appreciated thank you.

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Throughout history, people have suggested that they do not consider themselves guilty. I won't say that your views don't matter, but they certainly do not matter as much as the views that a Magistrates Bench may take, and the (potential) fine is not a 'joke', and, should the worst happen, refusing to pay a court imposition is not a good thing to do just before Christmas.

 

In the first instance, taken collectively, the various laws and 'precedent cases' have long ago established that the passenger must ensure that the correct fare has been paid.

 

I, too, am rather curious about why you had your younger brother's card, one which just happens to allow cheaper or even free travel. Professionally, I will choose to believe your explanation, but I would suggest that I am probably in a minority.

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Welcome too.

 

Just to clarify, is the basis of your 'defence' against TfL's allegation (apart from it being an accident) that you didn't sign the statement or notebook?

 

If so, it is irrelevant I'm afraid; you're not legally obliged to sign it (or indeed, stay and be interviewed) but failure to do either may appear to the Prosecutor that you were being unco-operative and therefore more likely to be guilty of the alleged offence. Which then would stiffen their resolve to take it all the way to court rather than 'settling'.

TfL process (successfully) literally thousands of prosecutions a year; imagine if it was all just as easy as not signning a statement to over-turn the charge?

 

It is the actions you are accused of before the statement is taken that are being prosecuted, not what happens after the statement is taken.

 

Devil's advocate again , here I'm afraid ;)

 

Good luck!

Edited by Grotesque
...beaten to it by W7 !!!
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