Cruise from hell

[martin2006]

i originally posted this in the wrong forum so hopefully now its right.

 

Hello all and thanks for great advice in other forums.

 

We recently went on a cruise with OV.During the holiday my 12 year old autistic son was assaulted by another lad. made a complaint to security and was told it would take 48 hrs to investigate and we would be told of outcome in due course. while they investigated this the same lad had got involved with some other lads and were basically terrorising the ship. i.e. ripped out seats in cinema, threw deck bins overboard while ship was sailing, destroyed gym equipment,laid broken glass down stairwell etc etc.

Had a meet with management who said they had "had a word" with them and warned them about future conduct (thrown off ship if any more bad behaviour)

the group carried on causing mayhem and more complaints were made by other people equally as fed up as us, but nothing further was done.

On the last night of our stay my wife was assaulted by a member of the original lads family and all hell broke loose. The girl who attacked my wife from behind was 13 yrs old, in the nightclub. The lad who attacked my son earlier in the week, who was only 11 was also in the nightclub. It was around 2.30am.

The head of security came to interview my wife at 8 am the next morning and then apologised to her for having our cruise ruined and also said that they should have been disembarked after my son was assaulted, then the other incidents would not have happened including the assault on my wife.

We made a written complaint to OV the day after returning home, who, in reply have said they did all possible and cannot be held responsible. I disagree and have written back asking them to prove that they did all possible and am waiting reply. Does anybody have any thoughts as to whether i have a case for them to answer or do i put it down to experience and let it go?

I can e-mail all current correspondence if necessary as it may be libelious to post it here

[Bookworm]

Well, I sure as hell would NOT let it go at that, no. It's an absolute disgrace and I would hound them until I had more appropriate answers and a fair amount of compensation too.

 

Top of my head, I would query what exactly are the guidelines for security on the ship? What is procedure? Why weren't the disruptive families disembarked after 1st incident?

 

Yes, I'd like to see the correspondence: [email protected], if you please, and I'll get back to you on this thread as soon as I can.

[callumsgran]

Hi, sorry to hear of your misfortune on your cruise! i was watching a programme on this the other night and it said that once you leave a port you are no longer covered by 'any' laws at all! people have been 'lost' overboard and allsorts and there is no comeback on the ship and their crews unfortunately. having said that i really hope your outcome is different, good luck!

[martin2006]

thanks for fast response peeps. ive asked all those questions and im awaiting reply. in the meantime ill e-mail what i have so far.its all dated stuff so you should be able to get it in the right order. Ive also spoken briefly to ABTA who didnt seem that interested but then i havent put it in writing to them. I too saw that cruise uncovered last monday i think and couldnt believe some of what goes on.

[callumsgran]

I know i was so shocked!!! hard to believe that it goes on isnt it? best of luck to you martin x

[martin2006]

Thanks cillit.

Sorry its taken a while to e-mail Bookworm but ive had to retype all OV responses into a separate folder cause it was too big to send after scanning them in. Just to clarify we made two complaints. one has been resolved so some of what you will read is irrelevant. Will be intersting to hear someone elses opinion. When weve spoke to various people they all say we should sue them but not too sure yet.

[mailmannz]

What has been resolved?

 

Mailman

[martin2006]

hi mailmannz.

In addition to the first post i made we were overcharged on our on board account to the tune of £383.00. basically they pre authorise what u spend on any given day with your bank but dont actually take the payment till u settle at the end of your cruise. in our case they did it twice and resulted in overcharging causing my bank account to be 383.00 down. They never actually took the money but coz it was pre authofised it takes 10 days to clear itself and come back into your bank. The upshot being this resulted in insufficient funds to pay mortgage and i was charged by both bank and mortgage co.

They paid my charges and that was that

[Bookworm]

e-mail received. I'll get back to you asap.

[martin2006]

Thx Bookworm.....would love to have a second opinion

[martin2006]

Well i gave them 10 days from 25th july and as yet ive heard nothing from them.

 

Will be drafting a letter to ABTA on monday, lets see if they can get a decent response from OV.

 

Have you had a chance to look through the E-mail yet Bookie? I know your very busy and i really appreciate it.

[Bookworm]

Sorry it took me so long to reply, I've only tonight been able to read your e-mail. Pathetic, I know.

 

Mhhh... Well, they sure don't seem to care about losing custom, are they? You make a serious complaint and their reply is to take it to their legal dept to make sure they cover themselves. Nice.

 

"the behavioural problem of children can be a headache". No. When it results in assault on a disabled child (or anyone for that matter), it's more than a "headache".

 

They state that they "go to considerable lengths to try and prevent children from annoying other passengers". How so?

 

I could pick their letter to bits and not find one appropriate response there. It's a lot of fluff whipped into a 1 page letter, with no substance, and the only part of significance is the "our legal dept says", which clearly shows where their one and only interest lies.

 

They are saying they can not be held liable for the altercation. I can, up to a point, accept that statement. Strictly speaking, of course, they can't be held liable. However, what they should be made accountable for is how such children were allowed in a presumably adults only nightclub?

 

Do you still have the T&Cs of your booking? IMO, you bought a cruise, and the implied terms of that cruise are that you should be able to enjoy it in safety. It doesn't have to say so on the T&Cs, because it goes without saying, literally.

I think the angle you want to go for is this: By allowing the trouble-makers to carry on, they breached the implied terms of your booking, even though they had the resources to do so. It was up to them to enforce those terms, and they failed to do so. they themselves admit that clause 31 allows them to take such action, and yet, they failed to apply it. Since they breached the terms of the contract, you should be reimbursed, as you didn't get what you paid for.

 

You have tried to talk to them on a customer complaint basis, and they have responded with their legal team's opinion. Maybe now you should try the contractual obligation angle, and see what their response is to that.

 

I personally think that you are being far too nice to them, and that your next letter needs to be a lot more bang-fist-on-table.

[martin2006]

Its just a lot of air isnt it? I greatly appreciate your views and i will now be banging-fist-on-table(love the expression). Will check out T&C and post back ASAP

[martin2006]

OK i had a look through T&Cs and ive come up with this to send next.

What do you think?

On 25-07-2006, I wrote to you asking for satisfactory responses to a complaint made on 1st-June-2006. I also gave you 10 days in which to respond as all the relevant information should be to hand since your investigation has now been completed.

YOU HAVE FAILED TO RESPOND.

It goes without saying that my family and I should have been able to enjoy the cruise in safety and comfort as per the implied terms.

YOU HAVE FAILED TO PROVIDE THIS.

I should point out the following:

BOOKING CONDITION 3.

All passengers agree to be bound by the terms of the contract. As it does not state otherwise, I must conclude that this also applies to children.

After the events which we endured, Clause 31 should have been invoked.

BOOKING CONDITION 5.

All passengers under the age of 18 MUST be accompanied by a passenger over 21 who at ALL times is responsible for their conduct and behaviour.

The child who assaulted my son was in your bayside nightclub, alone, at 2.30 am.

BOOKING CONDITION 31.

ALL passengers are required to conduct themselves in a proper manner, with due regard to the HEALTH, SAFETY, COMFORT, ENJOYMENT and GENERAL WELL BEING of ALL persons on board.

As it does not state otherwise, I must conclude this also applies to children.

YOU HAVE FAILED TO PROVIDE THIS. These people should have been disembarked.

I would at this point demand that you immediately refund the sum of £4212.00, which reflects the amount paid for this holiday, as you have failed to abide by your own terms and conditions.

This is a Letter Before Action, with which, you have 14 days to comply. If you do not comply, I shall, without any further warning issue court proceedings, upon which you will also become liable for all costs and interest @ 8%.

[Bookworm]

Very nice. Are you actually prepared to go ahead with a small claims court if they fail to respond? IMO, it's a no-brainer, £120 you may lose if you lose case against up to 4k + potentially to be recovered, but it's not as clear cut as with bank charges.... You have to consider as well that even a win in court might not end up with 100% refund, as a judge could take the view that you did in fact enjoy part of the holiday...

What kind of evidence do you have? Do you have a police report? Other witnesses to the incidents? Photos, maybe? All these would be useful.

[martin2006]

The only reports are those made on board as the police only became involved after we returned home. There are at least three witnessess who we are in regular contact with, possibly more if Ocean Village would give me what i asked for. Can i DPA SAR them for it? I also Know that the parents were fined £7000 for the damage these kids did.

If i dont take them court what other action can i take?

[BankFodder]

It is unlikely that an SAR will helop . You will receive data which appies to you and not to anyone else. However, go ahead and make the request just in case.

As far as no laws being applicable to a boat at sea, this is not correct and the law of the nationality of the ship at least will apply in addition to ant relevant concentions.

 

You spent £4200 odd on the holiday - but also there must ne other losses as well. for instance did you take time off work, what were your reasonable expectations of enjoyment.

Furthermore, in the attacks were you injured? You must have suffered distress.

Although it might fairly argued that before the first incident, it would be unreasonable for the company to anticipate any problems, after that the company would be treated as being on notice and in my view would have a contractual duty to look after the interests of the other passengers both in their personal safety an also in their interests as customers of the company entitled to enjoy the benefits of the holiday contract .

 

How mauch have you been offered so far?

 

I would set about putting together a very detailed chronology of events.

Assemble any pictures. Do you have the details of other passengers who might act as witnesseses - or names of the crew who you might have to compell to give evidence?

 

You should also make a list of all the ways in which you think that you have suffered loss.

 

Start off with money loss

cost of holiday

loss of holiday entitlement at work

Fares to and from the port

etc etc.

The list out all of your no-monetary losses.

trauma

distress

pain

loss of enjoyment

etc

 

I would suggest then that you alllocate a figure which you feel woujld compensate you for the non-monetary losses.

Don't be too conservative but do try and be reasonable.

 

I am quite sure that the figure will take you on to the fast track - in other words be in the region of £15K.

 

If you want to stay on the smal claims track then you and your wife and your son might consider bringing your claims separately - and keep them to £5000 each.

 

I would advise you to avoid getting into useless dialogue.

 

decide what your alcim is worth, put it to them with a 14 days deadline and then issue a summons.

 

make sure that you have considered carefully the ways inwhich you consider thatthy have breached their contract. yhou will need to list this out carefully.

PM me abvout this if you want.

 

As long as you prepared your case carefully and methodically there should be very little trouble. i can't see it getting to court unless you try to claim such a ridiculously high sum that they want to get it reduced. However, do not merely try to gt your money back. You seem to be entitled to far more than that.

 

Your claim will be based on the contract, the Supply of Goods and Services Act and other terms which it might be reasonable to imply into the contract.

 

I should do a little research into the legal responsibilites of a ship's capitain. I expect that this will produce fruitful results

[martin2006]

thanks for your advice bankfodder.

 

the ship is regd in London, so english law applies.

I have not been offered anything. In fact they dont seem to think they have done anything wrong at all.

 

I do have the names of three other passengers who i am in regular contact with and also a few crew members.

 

I have sent Bookworm an e-mail with all the correspondence so far, have you read it? I can send it to you if you like.

 

In the end though i think im gonna have to get a solicitor to take a look, one who specialises in travel law maybe!

 

Bookworm has been very helpful she knows all about what has happened and has given some useful advice, but as a layperson im not sure i have enough knowledge to plough on to court alone, even though the general concensus of opinion from everyone i have spoken to since returning home has said i should sue.

[BankFodder]

You should contact all of your co-passenegers and crew members straightaway and get statements and pictures from them

You shojld start gathering a file of evidence right now. Whatever you can get - be very greedy about it. You need maximum detail. The sooner you get it, the better.

Do any of the others want to take action as well. You could pool your resources if you do not feel up to acting on your own behalf.

 

Start getting all of your evidence together and not hang about.

If you want practice on writing a statement then write your own one, send it to me and I will show you how it should be written. Then you will understand the kind of thing that you will be trying to get from your witnesses.

 

As an encouragement to your witnesses, you can tell them that you will make any other statements you get available to them too.

 

As far as gtting a lawyer, yes get one with the appropriate experience but you will find it difficult to find one with the will to fight your corner with vigour.

I have always found that the quality of enthrusiasm amongst Solicitors and barristers to be very poor.

You really need to find someone who is in for a bit of dirty street fighting. Very difficult to find, I'm afraid.

[asd120273]

Don't know if this will help, but have a look at this site HolidayTruths.co.uk - Holiday Chat, Holiday Discussion, Photos, Reports, Reviews it is similar forum to this for travel.

 

They have a lawyer there who deals only with travel complaints and encourages people to contact her free of charge for help.

 

Good luck.

 

Anthony

[martin2006]

Thx Anthony

ill have a better look tonight when i get in from work

[martin2006]

Quick question.

i checked with Royal mail yesterday to see when my last letter to OV was delivered.

It may not have been, they cant confirm where it is. I sent it REC DEL

Should i resend or move on to next step which will be letter before action

(i think ill be going down ABTA arbitration route)

[martin2006]

Sent LBA today, they have 14 days. Have also sent case files to ABTA though im not sure that they will be much use.(have read some conflicting reports that they are more for tour operators than consumers) Will contact solicitor Mon am to get opinion, i have found one that deals with exactly this sort of thing.

Still had no further response from OV. Have left further messages but to no avail.

Will keep posting updates as and when anything happens.

[Bookworm]

I have subscribed to your thread, so will get notifications when you update. Good luck.

[martin2006]

Well i got the latest response today from OV, coincidentally, three days after sending LBA.

It reads like this:

 

Thankyou for your letter of 25 July, I regret your displeasure with my response of 11 July, but would like to assure you that no discourtesy was intended.

I have again taken advice from our Legal Department and they remain confident that OV acted appropriately and followed the correct procedures at all times. Therefore we are unable to meet your request for any compensation and regret the disappointment this decision will cause.

We have noted your comments regarding seeking further advice in which case i would urge you to contact our governing body ABTA.

WE do ask as per our booking conditions that all concerns are placed in writing to us as it is never easy to respond to issues or resolve differences over the telephone with the only record being the individuals recollection of what has been said. When you add that both parties may have been occasionly talking about different items without realising this has been the case, getting to the root of the problem and resolving issues can be almost impossible.

 

Assuring you of our best intentions.

 

 

ITS PATHETIC. Where are tha answers to my questions?

OK im calm again..............

 

Anyone had any experience with ABTA?

ive heard they tend to fall on the side of the tour ops, being a buisness for profit and so on.

So is it ABTA or County Court?

If i choose ABTA, i can not go to court later