Fraud uncovered after 10yrs!

[gizmo111]

AFAIK the trustee does not pay any debts that are secured on property.

Has the trustee actually said that he paid this person the full amount?

[frettful38]

I have got in black and white straight from the horses mouth.

 

The trustee has written that out of the money he received he has paid the creditor xxxxxxx.

[frettful38]

What my beef is that this landlord has been paid twice for the same debt, now is that classed as fraud, theft, a mistake ...........?

Under which act could I sue him for, a simple apology is not going to enough, and if he returns me the over-payment that still will not be acceptable

[gizmo111]

I am not sure what your remedy is here, but I suspect it will be classed as a mistake and you will get the amount returned to you plus some interest.

How is this mistake responsible for you losing £50K?

[frettful38]

This will be classed as a mistake? Even though he knowingly took this money causing a loss? This is deception, deceit!

It has been nearly 4 years that he has knowingly took this money and never has he admitted it, and if it went to court he could get away by saying sorry he made a mistake and give me my money back and a little interest on top?

 

He made my husband bankrupt by fraud but because my legal representatives were bribed by him my whole case went to the toilet. There were never any rent arrears ever, this was all a bogus claim he instigated against us. We gave him a grand to get a mortgage for us, then he said he could not, kept our money and refused to give it back. We then put the rent on our name and got our grand back then put rent on his name again. He started court proceedings for non payment of rent. I had a very good case, my barrister said we had 75% chance to win, but on the court day my barrister was changed, and the tables were turned on us, this nightmare went from bad to worse.

We were made to consent to an order outside the court, and this included paying the landlords legal fees, we tried to offer in installments, he refused, then instigated bankruptcy against my OH, then all hell from there.

Very long story, but I have now a chance to take him to court and prove that he has been paid twice and this will open the gateway for us to put our whole story before the judge as it should have right from the beginning.

No matter how you look at it he has committed fraud, and he knew that if I went in to court I would win so got my solicitors to do me over, now its my turn,.

And I know for a fact he don't like going in to court but he has left me no choice.

I have lost £50,000.00 because we paid the trustee in bankruptcy £44,000.00 and the landlord an extra £6,000.00

[gizmo111]

What was the £44,000 for?

[frettful38]

This was for costs built up by the trustee and his solicitors, included in this amount was the landlords money too. The landlords debt was about six grand.

[gizmo111]

And what were your other debts ? Were they included in this figure?

 

How did you get to £6k rent arrears?

[frettful38]

We had no other debts.

 

The landlord was claiming £250 + legal fees, meaning he wanted us to pay him £250 and pay all the money he spent on solicitors costs. This is what was written in the consent order, that if we paid this amount then he would take no further action, and seeing as my legal representatives were agreeing with all the #### that was coming out of his #### I had no choice but to agree.

 

The £6k is mostly the landlords bill of costs

[frettful38]

This £6k then formed in to the bankruptcy debt, and the trustee just kept adding his costs from there. The reason why the bill went so high was we did try and tell the trustee what had happened but he was interested, and as time went by costs went up and up. We were trying to negotiate with the trustee for nearly 2 years, in the end we lost and had to pay up.

[frettful38]

Then having already been paid he took the money knowing full well he was NOT entitled to it & that is theft no matter how you look it.

 

It the same as those cases where bank customers suddenly find there's been a windfall in that bank has credited many thousands of pounds to their account & go out & spend it in the full knowledge it doesn't belong to them

 

 

JonCris has hit the nail on the head here and this is what I have been looking for

[gizmo111]

And further up you say that a solcitor has advised you that you will only be likely to get your £6k back as well.

I must say £44k seems an awful lot of trustee fees.

[frettful38]

My question to everyone is that if someone knowingly has taken money from you twice and has never bothered to ever mention it, and after they have been caught out would it be classed as a mistake? and their only punishment would be to pay it back?

Edited February 24, 2009 by frettful38

[frettful38]

And further up you say that a solcitor has advised you that you will only be likely to get your £6k back as well.

I must say £44k seems an awful lot of trustee fees.

 

 

I am looking in to the costs claimed in Bankruptcy. When this case goes to court this will be very big news, because there are a lot of legal bodies involved here, and the costs incurred in Bankruptcy are already being investigated by the Insolvency Services .

 

This is what I have been waiting for for a very long time.

[frettful38]

If this landlord is capable of knowingly accepting payment twice for the same debt then does this not cast a shadow of doubt on what else he may have been capable of?

 

If I can prove this then it could put the whole bankruptcy issue in to question! I have been advised from a very good fellow cag member that,

 

. Much will depend on the activity of the landlords bank account. eg if there are very few or no transactions of that amount so that such funds being paid in could not be but noticed then there is a stronger case to argue he must or should have known he wasn't entitled to the money.

 

If that can be proven then that is theft Also because of length of time that has passed the reason can only be that he intended to deprive you permanently which even if paid by mistake is still theft

[gizmo111]

I doubt very much if it will have any bearing on the original BR proceedings, he will simply admit to it being an error and pay it back. Is the solictor you spoke to going to take this further for you?

[JonCris]

IF there's CLEAR evidence that the landlord accepted payment knowing that he was not entitled to it. In addition that being the case & because of the lapse in time it's safe to say he intended to deprive the OP 'permanently' that's not a mistake that's theft

[gizmo111]

IF there's CLEAR evidence that the landlord accepted payment knowing that he was not entitled to it. In addition that being the case & because of the lapse in time it's safe to say he intended to deprive the OP 'permanently' that's not a mistake that's theft

 

Thats as maybe but it wont be a basis to get the original BR overturned or to claim a load of compensation for the effects of the BR.

 

To be convicted of theft doesnt a criminal court have to be involved? And what would be cleear evidence?

[frettful38]

First I would like to say a very big thank you to JonCris for his advice that he has given me.

I have been suffering for many many years as to what has happened to us. I have suffered such a tragedy in my life and no matter what I have tried to do to declare our innocence I have never managed to get anywhere. This is the first time ever that I have found something to build on and go forward with this.

In the past I have mostly received negative advice which has honestly put me off doing things, no matter how many times I try and put things behind me and try and get on with my life something inside me keeps saying keep going. Maybe this is hard for anyone to understand but if you were in my situation then you would understand too. I appreciate all advice, positive and negative, but I am sure that once a court gets the full picture of what has happened they will not just push it to the side.

 

This landlord did not want me to go in to the court room at the original hearing because he knew if I did then I would win, so he convinced my legal representatives to make me consent to a deal with him. I was on legal aid at that time , still my legal representatives made me agree to say that I would pay 60% of the landlords bill of costs, now if I went in to the courtroom and lost then legal aid would have paid. So can you see how clever he has been.

 

Now that I have a chance to expose him for what he really is do you think I am going to sit here and let him get away with all he has done.

At the time our house was going to be repossessed I had a nervous breakdown and I have been on anti-depressants since. I am not looking for sympathy, I am looking for justice.

 

Only time will tell now what will happen. I owe a great deal to this CAG site, because from here I have learned so much.

I will keep everyone up dated as to what the solicitor has advised me, then maybe I can take it from there.

 

 

frettful

[JonCris]

Thats as maybe but it wont be a basis to get the original BR overturned or to claim a load of compensation for the effects of the BR.

 

To be convicted of theft doesnt a criminal court have to be involved? And what would be cleear evidence?

 

 

If the landlord was the petitioner for the bankruptcy & the BR was caused by his/her failure to disclose being paid twice then there are grounds to seek compensation. As for the rest how long is a piece of string who knows & of course only a criminal court would be able judge a criminal offence (I thought everyone on here knew that) If the OP found evidence of a deliberate fraud/theft then they would have grounds to report it to the police

[gizmo111]

If the landlord was the petitioner for the bankruptcy & the BR was caused by his/her failure to disclose being paid twice

 

No it wasn't, the OP didn't pay a £6K judgement which led to the BR, she subsequently remortgaged and both the trustee and the solicitor paid the debtor. Which is why it is unlikely she will get the BR annuled or any of the related fees/losses back from the LL or anyone else come to that.

 

I thought everyone on here read threads all the way through before making assumptions.

 

The payment twice may be considered theft, and yes I know it is a criminal offence I just wasn't aware if there were any private civil remedies that were open, other than the normal money claim process.

[JonCris]

They both paid the 'debtor'

[gizmo111]

They both paid the 'debtor'

 

 

Yes but that wasn't the reason for the BR - the BR was one debt of £6k - he hadn't been paid anything before the BR so there was no fraud or overpayments when he filed for their BR.

[frettful38]

Thank you gizmo111 and JonCris for your interesting remarks.

 

My solicitor has confirmed with me that the debtor has been paid twice. Now we are trying to see under which act Fraud, Dishonesty, or Theft to try and bring a claim against the creditor.

 

What I have been trying to accomplish from the beginning is that if it can be proven without a doubt that the creditor is guilty of knowingly accepting payment twice and did not declare it, then this would cast a doubt on his character and what sort of a person he is. Because this proves that he is a liar amongst other things.

This could also prove that he has been dishonest, and if he is capable of this theft then who knows what else he may have been capable of. This will then give me the opportunity to bring the whole bankruptcy case before the court, because I have a lot of evidence that it was not conducted correctly. The costs in Bankruptcy are presently being investigated.

Edited February 25, 2009 by frettful38

[cadencealex]

Where housing benefit involved in this at any point?

 

You say you were a tenant - who was paying your rent?

 

It seems to me like you and him (the Landlord) were doing some dodgy deals between yourselves and it all went tits up.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, or sound a little harsh..