Virgin Card - Mbna Cca Is It Valid??

[sunflower99]

Today I also notice that the default I received refers to paragraph 8 on the therms and conditions, there is no paragraph 8 on the CCA although there is on the current T&C's that they sent through.

 

I have never been provided with the T&C's that applied at the date the contract/application was signed. I have sent a SARS to MBNA but I am guessing that as paragraph 8 is not shown on my CCA that this invalidates the default.

 

If anyone can advise regarding this I would be extremely grateful.

 

Thanks and enjoy your easter!

Good point! I will have to dig out my MBNA default notice and see if mine is the same!

[underdog13]

My DN states paragraph 8. I was wondering the same as Bozalt, as to whether this would invalidate the DN as there is no para 8 on my agreement?

[Gazza112]

Hi Sunflower

 

You won't find paragraph 8, On the aplication form if your lucky to have one. It says please read Paragraph 11 before signing, if you can find that lol.

 

Gaz

[bozalt]

Hi Sunflower

 

You won't find paragraph 8, On the aplication form if your lucky to have one. It says please read Paragraph 11 before signing, if you can find that lol.

 

Gaz

 

 

And MBNA still manage to obtain judgments and register defaults when their letters refer to paragraphs that are not on your original agreement and have not provided the original T&C's???

 

Mental, how is that allowed to happen???

[guzzleguts]

Hi B

 

On the up to date T&C's the paragraph 8 has relevance its about paying your balance and penalties if you dont.

 

But after waiting for my DSAR for weeks after the 40 days, they sent me the relevant terms and paragraph 8 on these has no meaning at all.

 

But as i read my DN it states paragraph 8 of your agreement not T&C's, so i think they are stuffed.

 

I will let you know soon i received court papers on the 3rd and im waiting for their solicitor to comply with my CPR request.

 

GG

[underdog13]

Hi B

 

 

But as i read my DN it states paragraph 8 of your agreement not T&C's, so i think they are stuffed.

 

 

GG

 

Excellent point:D

[bozalt]

Hi B

 

On the up to date T&C's the paragraph 8 has relevance its about paying your balance and penalties if you dont.

 

GG

 

 

Hi GG

 

Thats excellent news for you and for all of MBNA's victims. This kind of misrepresentation will surely go in your favour.

 

I am guessing MBNA have not kept copies of historical t&c's and as they have so many agreements they are in a confused mess.

 

I have subbed to your thread and wish you the best of luck.

 

Cheers

 

B

[landy_alert]

Today I also notice that the default I received refers to paragraph 8 on the therms and conditions, there is no paragraph 8 on the CCA although there is on the current T&C's that they sent through.

 

I have never been provided with the T&C's that applied at the date the contract/application was signed. I have sent a SARS to MBNA but I am guessing that as paragraph 8 is not shown on my CCA that this invalidates the default.

 

If anyone can advise regarding this I would be extremely grateful.

 

Thanks and enjoy your easter!

 

Hi Bozalt,

 

The DN my OH has received also has the refence to paragraph 8 and like most of the others here the CCA MBNA have provided has no para 8 (although in itself the CCA is a different format to most I have seen).

 

He has also received current T&Cs with his CCA which as you say do have the elusive paragraph 8, but we have recently found his historic T&Cs which were sent with his card in amongst some old paperwork, although not his original agreement unfortunately as we don't believe he ever received a copy.

 

On these historic T&Cs, dating from May 2005, there is a paragraph 8 also, but the wording is slightly different to that on the current version. In both versions paragraph 8 is entitled 'Paying your balance'.

 

Current T&Cs 8a

 

Quote - ''The minimum payment you must make will be shown on your monthly statement. Refunds and credits will not count towards your minimum payment unless they pay off your balance in full. We may write to you allowing you to make a reduced monthly payment or we make give you a payment holiday. If you take certain insurance products through us, then we may allow you a payment holiday or to make a reduced monthly payment, we will continue to charge interest as normal. We will also not extend the period within which you need to pay if you want to avoid interest on any card purchases you made in the previous month.''

 

Historic T&Cs 8a

 

Quote - ''The minimum payment you must make will be shown on your monthly statement. We may write to you allowing you to make a reduced monthly payment or we may give you a payment holiday. If we do this, we will continue to charge interest as normal. We will also not extend the period within which you need to pay if you want to avoid interest on any card purchases you made in the previous month.''

 

The remainder of paragraph 8, sections b-h, are the same on both sets of T&Cs.

 

Obviously the T&Cs may not be the same for cards taken out at other times, but I thought this might be of interest.

 

Regards,

 

Landy x

[guzzleguts]

My relevant T&C's are from Dec 04, this is paragraph 8.

 

8. Your balance

8a. We will add transactions to your account after the payment system under which we issued your card lets us know about them. We will add interest to your account on the statement date . We will add the handling fees and other charges immediately.

8b. If you do make a transaction in any other currency than sterling, we will change the amount into sterling at the wholesale market rate or any rate that a government may set. Exchange rates may change, and the exchange rate at which you made your transaction may not be the same as thee exchange rate the payment system uses at the time we add charges to your account. We will charge commission of 2.75% of the value of each foreign-currency transaction. The exchange rate shown on the statement will include this commission.

8c. We will refund a transaction only when we are satisfied that a refund is due.

 

Thats all in paragraph 8 of my relevant terms o4.

 

Hope thats some use to someone that hasnt had any terms sent out.

 

GG

[landy_alert]

Have had a delve around and found another set of historic T&Cs for OH's second MBNA card (currently with Equidebt and no sign of CCA for this one yet nearly 3 months down the line). We don't have his copy of agreement for this one either, worse luck:(

 

These are from June 04 and para 8 on this one is the same as GG's.

 

I should point out, the first set I quoted were for an MBNA affiliate card for Southampton FC and the second are for an MBNA BMI card.

 

As GG says, hopefully these will be of some use to someone here:)

 

Regards,

 

Landy x

[angel_1]

hiya all

 

thanks for the latest info on the paragraph 8 - my dn's show this too

 

but of course no historic terms ever sent to me only the current ones

 

also landy -have you let pompeyfaith be aware of your findings cos i thought his court case is something to do with mbna with southampton fc his application from one of their magazines?

just my initial thoughts that may help him

 

anyway this all sounds positive news to us all

 

laters all angel x and happy holidays

[bozalt]

Thanks Landy for this informaton it is much appreciated, we all appear to be in the same boat regarding DNs. Reading the other posts from Angel, GG and underdog it is apparent that nobody has ever been provided with historic terms and conditions when requested, surely these are the ones that are applicable???

 

I am also confused as to why they refer to the 'agreement' rather than T & C's in their DN's but surely this must count in our favour!

 

Thanks everyone for the info and I hope you had a great weekend, back to work tomorrow!

[underdog13]

Something else to bear in mind - MBNA bought out a lot of credit cards from other providers; so the original T&Cs wouldn't have had the paragraph 8 they refer to.

[ifoughtthelaw]

Hi Bozalt

 

If they refer to 'agreement' then I would say DN is invalid. We received a copy of current t&c when we requested CCA - no originals sent but have found 3 different sets of originals (probably from old accounts) in amongst our own paperwork. Paragraph 8 is different in all 3 but there is no way of knowing which set relates to which account and definitely nothing linking any of them them to disputed account.

 

So how can MBNA prove what was sent to you with so many different t&c for different cards? It's even less likely that they kept copies of these. Also, am I right in thinking t&c not the same as prescribed terms which must be on the same document? So if no paragraph 8 on agreement = invalid DN Ho ho - Chester Towers must be in a right old pickle - made a mess of my filing system with just 3 sets.

[landy_alert]

Hi Bozalt

 

If they refer to 'agreement' then I would say DN is invalid. We received a copy of current t&c when we requested CCA - no originals sent but have found 3 different sets of originals (probably from old accounts) in amongst our own paperwork. Paragraph 8 is different in all 3 but there is no way of knowing which set relates to which account and definitely nothing linking any of them them to disputed account.

 

So how can MBNA prove what was sent to you with so many different t&c for different cards? It's even less likely that they kept copies of these. Also, am I right in thinking t&c not the same as prescribed terms which must be on the same document? So if no paragraph 8 on agreement = invalid DN Ho ho - Chester Towers must be in a right old pickle - made a mess of my filing system with just 3 sets.

 

Hi Guys,

 

Don't want to put a spanner in the works, but I've read somewhere here on the forum in the last couple of days (but can't remember where unfortunately:() that the application form (which is what most of us have received back in response to our CCAs) is the unexecuted copy or pre-contractual document, but the card carrier which came with our card attached is the actual executed agreement even though it contains no signature. Apparently it doesn't have to contain the signature:eek:

 

I have gone back to double check OH's old T&Cs I found the other day and they both say -

 

'This is a copy of your agreement for you to keep. It includes a notice about your cancellation rights which you should read.'

 

On the earlier set (June 2004) above that it has the heading -

 

'Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 terms and conditions'

 

It is a two sided document with T&Cs numbered from 1-19. There is a cancellation box at the bottom of the second side.

 

On the set from mid May 2005 the heading is below the 'This is a copy.....'etc

 

It reads -

 

'Credit Card Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974'

 

Again it is two sided with numbered T&Cs from 1-16 and again it has the cancellation box.

 

Both of these documents are addressed to OH and each one bears the relevant account number and his credit limit.

 

There is the remains of the sticky area where OH's card was attached to each one.

 

Now being a relative newbie to all this I don't know the significance, if any, of this but thought it might have some bearing - possibly not for good though:confused:

 

I have read so many conflicting views as to whether an application form suffices as a copy of the agreement that now I'm totally confused.

 

Does it mean that they should have sent us a copy of the card carrier in response to our CCA requests?

 

Does it mean they haven't kept these, or will they pull them out of the hat later if it goes to court?

 

Does none of it matter because the pre-contractual application form is sufficient to rely upon in court?

 

I feel I am back at square one now and need someone knowledgeable to clarify this!

 

Apologies for hijacking your thread Bozalt, but thought as we were already discussing these issues here it was best to continue in the same place;)

 

Regards,

 

Landy x

[toto003]

HI Landy,

 

I kept my card-carrier copy -

 

I have posted a copy of the front side in the first post on my thread

 

here:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/178525-toto-mbna.html

 

If you want me to post up the reverse I can scan it and do so.

 

That copy (from Nov 2004) also makes the same mistake with a failure to state the rate of interest for revolving credit (a prescribed term) ... among other problems.

 

I have heard of the old MBNA argument that the Card and Card-Carrier are "one document" and in my opinion it doesnt hold up (Some Judges seem to think differently) - as it is impossible to sign the card while it is still attached.

 

But for an agreement that doesnt contain the all the prescribed terms, the point is moot.

 

hope this helps.

 

toto

[landy_alert]

Hi Toto and apologies once again to Bozalt:)

 

Many thanks for that - I've had a look at your pic and apart from the fact yours is a Virgin card, it's the same lower half as the front of OH's card carrier document!

 

I was beginning to think we were the only ones who had kept theirs, apart from AA99 who I did notice mentioned having one too.

 

Don't worry about posting up the reverse - I'm sure it will be the same as OH's as his is from 2004 as well:D

 

I do seem to remember reading somewhere about the argument of the card with the signature making the card-carrier meet the criteria for being one document, but had forgotten this till you mentioned it.

 

As yet I haven't had a chance to check the prescribed terms but will do so in eagerness now in the hope something is wrong!

 

Many thanks again,

 

Landy x

[underdog13]

I've heard of a few different creditors using the card carrier argument - what would happen to that argument if the card was never signed?!

[toto003]

@ Landy - Read my post #49

here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/175080-virgin-card-mbna-cca-3.html#post2088107

 

If you check your Card carriers - they all probably have the same flaw as mine.

 

@Underdog

I have never signed a single card I recieved from MBNA - and I still have them.

 

unfortunately, I did sign a form some kind of agreement form they sent

[bozalt]

Hi Guys,

 

Apologies for hijacking your thread Bozalt, but thought as we were already discussing these issues here it was best to continue in the same place;)

 

 

 

Hi Landy

 

No worries, all information is useful.

 

Cheers

 

B

[ifoughtthelaw]

I don't think MBNA have kept copies of card carriers as no-one seems to have had these in response to CCA request? This is what I can't seem to understand - the application was made then card was sent out attached to carrier. Where in the process was a proper agreement made with both parties signing same document? I don't have a copy of the application and MBNA don't have a copy of the card carrier. We have kept card carriers too but they are flawed for the same reason as application form as toto says.

 

 

x

[toto003]

I don't think MBNA have kept copies of card carriers as no-one seems to have had these in response to CCA request? This is what I can't seem to understand - the application was made then card was sent out attached to carrier. Where in the process was a proper agreement made with both parties signing same document? I don't have a copy of the application and MBNA don't have a copy of the card carrier. We have kept card carriers too but they are flawed for the same reason as application form as toto says.

x

 

have a look on my thread IFTL - In my case (I think this is the same for online applications made pre-DEC 31 2004)

 

A CCA was sent to be signed and returned before a card was issued.

 

and the card carrier + card was the "customer copy" of the slip they signed and returned.

 

I have a very very good memory for recalling exact words in conversation. My online application was referred and I had to phone MBNA before it was "approved" (possibly due to the "high" limit) - and the process was explained to me by an employee;

 

"There is no way we would issue a card or process any balance transfers until that signed slip is in our possession"

 

Perhaps the process was slightly different for "manually" filled in application forms.

 

hope this helps

 

toto

[bozalt]

I have received a response for my MBNA SARs request, requesting a copy of a signed passport or driving licence but i dont want to give either. I sent the standard SARS letter and this appears to be the standard MBNA response. I would welcome any advice on how to resolve this.

 

I seem to remember Sunflower or Angel had a similar problem and went through security over the phone. If anyone has a copy of the letter I should send that would be much appreciated.

 

No response from my Civil Procedures letter to MBNA's solicitors yet.

 

Many thanks!

Edited April 18, 2009 by bozalt

[angel_1]

I have received a response for my MBNA SARs request, requesting a copy of a signed passport or driving licence but i dont want to give either. I sent the standard SARS letter and this appears to be the standard MBNA response. I would welcome any advice on how to resolve this.

 

I seem to remember Sunflower or Angel had a similar problem and went through security over the phone. If anyone has a copy of the letter I should send that would be much appreciated.

 

No response from my Civil Procedures letter MBNA's solicitors yet.

 

Many thanks!

 

 

hiya bozalt

 

way back i sent a letter and was then sent a letter to call them to go through security,

but then lexis gave me a couple of letters on another of my threads so will come back to refer you to those letters they may help,,,

 

Am Back.......

 

 

its post 66 below link

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/halifax-bank-bank-scotland/160739-halifax-req-cca-poss.html

 

give it a shot see what happens,

 

keep happy laters angel x

Edited April 18, 2009 by angel_1

[bozalt]

hiya bozalt

 

way back i sent a letter and was then sent a letter to call them to go through security,

but then lexis gave me a couple of letters on another of my threads so will come back to refer you to those letters they may help,,,

 

Am Back.......

 

 

its post 66 below link

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/halifax-bank-bank-scotland/160739-halifax-req-cca-poss.html

 

 

give it a shot see what happens,

 

keep happy laters angel x

 

 

Thanks Angel, your a life saver once again!