Virgin Card - Mbna Cca Is It Valid??

[ifoughtthelaw]

Hi Bozalt,

 

I'm waiting for a SAR from them too for my own account - 40 days is up and heard nothing from them except a few calls from RMA - I sent them back to MBNA as they haven't a clue about any letters when asked and I won't confirm my details until they have my letter to hand . Gail Powell (multi-talented tasker at MBNA) promised a full reply by 1st April and I'm still waiting........

 

I'm expecting them to stall with a request for more ID but have been thinking. If they want to play these games I'm going to reply asking to visit their office to confirm myself IN PERSON with ID as I do not wish to send this through the post. At the same time, they can let me see my original agreement and take away a copy saving them postage in the process. Neither they nor a Judge could argue that you hadn't tried your best!

 

They're happy to send you statements, defaults, open postcards for the postman to view, leave messages with minor children (yes really) and work colleagues but not believe who you are when you ask for a SAR!

[sunflower99]

Hi Bozalt,

 

I'm waiting for a SAR from them too for my own account - 40 days is up and heard nothing from them except a few calls from RMA - I sent them back to MBNA as they haven't a clue about any letters when asked and I won't confirm my details until they have my letter to hand . Gail Powell (multi-talented tasker at MBNA) promised a full reply by 1st April and I'm still waiting........

 

I'm expecting them to stall with a request for more ID but have been thinking. If they want to play these games I'm going to reply asking to visit their office to confirm myself IN PERSON with ID as I do not wish to send this through the post. At the same time, they can let me see my original agreement and take away a copy saving them postage in the process. Neither they nor a Judge could argue that you hadn't tried your best!

 

They're happy to send you statements, defaults, open postcards for the postman to view, leave messages with minor children (yes really) and work colleagues but not believe who you are when you ask for a SAR!

Yes its ridiculous!

[bozalt]

Hi Bozalt,

 

I'm waiting for a SAR from them too for my own account - 40 days is up and heard nothing from them except a few calls from RMA - I sent them back to MBNA as they haven't a clue about any letters when asked and I won't confirm my details until they have my letter to hand . Gail Powell (multi-talented tasker at MBNA) promised a full reply by 1st April and I'm still waiting........

 

I'm expecting them to stall with a request for more ID but have been thinking. If they want to play these games I'm going to reply asking to visit their office to confirm myself IN PERSON with ID as I do not wish to send this through the post. At the same time, they can let me see my original agreement and take away a copy saving them postage in the process. Neither they nor a Judge could argue that you hadn't tried your best!

 

They're happy to send you statements, defaults, open postcards for the postman to view, leave messages with minor children (yes really) and work colleagues but not believe who you are when you ask for a SAR!

 

Pathetic these MBNA jokers, they want it all ways except the consumers!! Threats intimidation, discussing personal info without clearing security. Lets hope they go bust!

[angel_1]

hiya bozalt you are welcome

 

did the letters help you?

 

have you sent one off ?

 

laters angel x

[alimehmet]

what i dont understand is, why would you not want to pay your credit card bill, ok, i can understand you may not want to pay the interest or the charges, but hell, if you spent for example £4000 on buying items or a holiday, shouldnt you pay that back? I dont condone what MBNA do, but not paying back what you spent is like stealing.

 

I have a friend who just settled his credit card bill, paying 40% of what he owed them - surely that is more acceptable then not paying a single penny, even though he spent the money

[ifoughtthelaw]

alimehmet

 

It is not about not paying the bill. In my case I've paid mine plus charges and huge interest 100% on time for many years. When it came to raising a complaint about a £12 charge, we realised that for quite some time we had been tucked up by MBNA in several ways. They have been quite disgraceful in their treatment of the consumer and play by no rules whatsoever. The CCA 1974 was designed to protect me as a consumer and if in the process of making the complaint I realised as a consumer that the bank has not done their job properly, why shouldn't I be able to challenge this if the law is there for me to do so? I haven't stolen anyone's money and nor did I set out to! Everyone has a different set of circumstances on here - but this is not the place to judge, just offer help in whatever way you can.

 

If the boot was on the other foot and you had paid for PPI for years, you can bet your life they would be finding a way out of paying you should you need to claim on it through no fault of your own! I would say that these threads are for friends helping friends - start your own thread for your comments!

 

Sorry Bozalt for hijacking!

[bozalt]

hiya bozalt you are welcome

 

did the letters help you?

 

have you sent one off ?

 

laters angel x

 

Hi Angel

 

Sorry for delay had no internet access for a few days, thanks for the letters I sent one off on Monday so will see what happens.

 

Cheers

 

B

[angel_1]

hiya bozalt

 

no probs, been busy myself past week, trying to catch up with all

 

they were provided by lexis200 but im pretty sure she would be happy that she helped you too

 

have a fun day laters angel x

[sunflower99]

what i dont understand is, why would you not want to pay your credit card bill, ok, i can understand you may not want to pay the interest or the charges, but hell, if you spent for example £4000 on buying items or a holiday, shouldnt you pay that back? I dont condone what MBNA do, but not paying back what you spent is like stealing.

 

I have a friend who just settled his credit card bill, paying 40% of what he owed them - surely that is more acceptable then not paying a single penny, even though he spent the money

I suspect the majority of us by the time you add on their horrendous unfair interest rates and charges which you pay interest on too! will have paid well over the original amount taken out on card!

[bozalt]

I suspect the majority of us by the time you add on their horrendous unfair interest rates and charges which you pay interest on too! will have paid well over the original amount taken out on card!

 

 

This is very true Sunflower, I agreed a low rate of interest a number of years ago for the lifetime of the card however when I got to £7k balance they then put it up to 34.9% and denied making the agreement for a lifetime rate, unfortunately I never kept any evidence of the lower rate at the time.

Edited April 27, 2009 by bozalt

[angel_1]

This is very true Sunflower, I agreed a low rate of interest a number of years ago for the lifetime of the card however when I got to £7k balance they then put it up to 34.9% and denied making the agreement for a lifetime rate, unfortunately I never kept any evidence of the lower rate at the time.

 

 

hiya bozalt

 

just a bolt hit me when i read that above, are you aware of the cpr request route for your copy agreement?

 

rushing off to post office now but let me know if you do or do not, just thinking out loud that if you can get a copy of your original agreement surely the lifetime rate should be there as you were paying it at the beginning okay, now gone up, so this could be a very good reason for you to go via crp route,,,

 

chat later just my wild thoughts at the moment

 

angel x

[sunflower99]

Hi bozalt!

Just popping on your threadto see how you doing!I must admit i am tempted to get truecall! It sounds a great device! I will send you a pm soon and we can have a update about our wars with the Pondfeeders!Keep you chin up! we will not let them win!

[bozalt]

hiya bozalt

 

just a bolt hit me when i read that above, are you aware of the cpr request route for your copy agreement?

 

rushing off to post office now but let me know if you do or do not, just thinking out loud that if you can get a copy of your original agreement surely the lifetime rate should be there as you were paying it at the beginning okay, now gone up, so this could be a very good reason for you to go via crp route,,,

 

chat later just my wild thoughts at the moment

 

angel x

 

 

Hi Angel

 

I do not really understand CPR route but the rate I agreed was after the introductory rate finished and they whacked interest up to around 14.9%, I said I would move the balance but they agreed to a lower rate for lifetime of the card, sadly I didnt ask for this in writing.

 

Thanks

 

B

[bozalt]

what i dont understand is, why would you not want to pay your credit card bill, ok, i can understand you may not want to pay the interest or the charges, but hell, if you spent for example £4000 on buying items or a holiday, shouldnt you pay that back? I dont condone what MBNA do, but not paying back what you spent is like stealing.

 

I have a friend who just settled his credit card bill, paying 40% of what he owed them - surely that is more acceptable then not paying a single penny, even though he spent the money

 

I hope your friend got it in writing that 40% is in full and final settlement or it may come back to haunt him.

 

I dont think anybody takes a credit card with the specific intention of not paying any borrowing back. However when face with the kind of threats, intimidation, abuse, harrasment and pressure excerted by large organisations when advising you are having final issues will result in a negative attitude towards them.

 

My situation was that I couldnt meet my repayments to all creditors and MBNA chose to ignore this and continued to add charges and interest of around £150pcm and call up to fifteen times a day to threaten to make me homeless.

 

If they have not made the effort to ensure their paperwork and procedures are both legal and complete and then rely on this kind of mistreatment of customers who have contributed to their huge profits for a number of years then they should expect a backlash and subsequently a loss of respect and revenue.

[sunflower99]

I hope your friend got it in writing that 40% is in full and final settlement or it may come back to haunt him.

 

I dont think anybody takes a credit card with the specific intention of not paying any borrowing back. However when face with the kind of threats, intimidation, abuse, harrasment and pressure excerted by large organisations when advising you are having final issues will result in a negative attitude towards them.

 

My situation was that I couldnt meet my repayments to all creditors and MBNA chose to ignore this and continued to add charges and interest of around £150pcm and call up to fifteen times a day to threaten to make me homeless.

 

If they have not made the effort to ensure their paperwork and procedures are both legal and complete and then rely on this kind of mistreatment of customers who have contributed to their huge profits for a number of years then they should expect a backlash and subsequently a loss of respect and revenue.

Well said bozalt!

[woody1066]

Can I get a third or forth opinion on the CCA that MBNA sent to me please

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/172174-mbna-cca-enforceable.html

[bozalt]

Hi Bozalt

 

Firstly calm down and that goes for your partner as well.

First MBNA are a load of T........h, they never do things in the correct order. There's quite a few steps down the road before and if they can get any charging order. You would have to go to Court first, and they would have to have an enforceable agreement. Then if they win and you get a CCJ against you and default that. They would have to go back to Court and get a Charging order.

 

Here's a letter you can send there Solicitor's.

 

Dear Sir,

 

Re :

 

THIS IS A REQUEST UNDER THE CIVIL PROCEDURE RULES.

PLEASE DO NOT IGNORE.

 

I am in receipt of your letter dated (whenever, if a second class mail service was used mention it here), this was received on (whenever).

 

You have indicated that you are planning on applying for a summons in order to have a judgement entered against me.

 

I am sure that you are aware that I have long since requested from your client, under both the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (The Act) and the Data Protection Act 1998, a copy of the agreement to which both you and your client allege I am a signatory. To date this has not been provided to me and whilst I appreciate your client has endeavoured to persuade me that the provision of a copy of an application form is sufficient to discharge your client from further obligations under section 78 of the Act. Likewise I too have explained that the mere provision of a copy of an application form is not a legally permissible substitute for the provision of a true copy of the executed agreement as required under section 78 of the Act and as prescribed by Regulation 3 Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983.

 

I am sure you are also aware that under section 78(6) of the Act, whilst a creditor is in default of a request made under sub-section (1) they may not enforce the agreement.

 

Notwithstanding the foregoing and your client's persistent, unexplained and wilful refusal to supply a copy of the executed agreement in accordance with its obligations (the permitted omissions under Regulation 3(2) excepted), your client has made plain its intention to begin legal proceedings against me. In consequence this matter may now be treated as one which is subject to the control of the Civil Procedure Rules.

 

Take notice therefore that under CPR Practice Direction - Protocols paragraph 4.6(a) and (d), I request that you supply copies of the following documents:

 

[1] A true copy of the executed credit agreement incorporating prescribed notices, terms and conditions applicable at the time the agreement was executed and

[2] Any further or subsequent notices, terms and conditions relied upon.

 

Please note that my request under the Practice Direction is not a request for production within the confines of the Act and Regulations but rather, it is for a copy of the executed agreement, including signatures and all such other notices, terms and conditions as will be relied upon in the event that your client shall begin a claim.

 

A copy of the documents I have requested should be supplied to me within 14 days and you are urged not to begin proceedings for a period of not less than 14 days following the supply of those documents to me.

 

Should your client elect to ignore my request under the Practice Direction and commence proceedings, it is likely that I shall repeat my request for the provision of documents under CPR 31.14. In the event that your client should fail to comply with my CPR 31.14 request, I will not hesitate in making an application to the court for an order that further proceedings upon the claim be stayed pending provision of the requisite documents, in the course of which application I will of course refer to this and previous requests for the provision of copy documents.

 

I look forward to hearing from you within the time stated.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

 

 

Hope this helps you

 

 

Gaz

 

In response to the legal action threat I sent the above letter to MBNA solicitors and have finally cleared security with MBNA over the phone to enable them to process my SARS.

 

The only response so far has been from DCA not even the solicitors stating;

 

1 We have not issued a claim

2 You are not required to file a defence

3 The provisions concerning disclosure within the CPR are not applicable as action has not yet commenced. All material that we are bound to disclose will be disclosed within the usual disclosure provisions in the claim.

 

There is a further paragraph that has confused me slightly as it states;

 

We regret to inform you that section 78 CCA does not require DCA to provide you with a true copy of the executed agreement as you appear to belive. It requires DCA to provide you with a copy of the executed agreement as defined by the consumer credit (cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) regulations 1983. The document already issued to you is suffiecient to conform with regulations.

 

I am really confused now, does this mean they realise they are unlikely to be able to enforce my CCA or just that they intend to take action regardless. Also the paragraph regarding Consumer Credit Regulations is that relevant and are they correct?

 

Any ideas what this all means and how or even if I should respond???

 

Many thanks

 

B

Edited May 2, 2009 by bozalt

[ifoughtthelaw]

How pompous they are! Sending letters clearly to make you think legal action is happening and then acting smug as you like when you respond. As I understand it, the 1983 regs allow them to leave out certain things in the copy so they hide their failings behind these rules as well as section 78 request, when they tell you that they have fulfilled their obligations. They might have done that, but it doesn't necessarily make the agreement enforceable. Why do they go to all this trouble when they could just give you a copy of the agreement in its entire form? It must be because the agreements are faulty and they know it. There was a very good thread from steven4064 here Consumer Credit Agreements - a guide to enforceability which made good sense and helped it slowly sink in for me!

 

Only thing I'm not sure about is the CPR thing, what is the difference between 31.14 and 31.16 and do we only use this route when legal action is actually started as they seem to be saying - anybody please help with this one?

 

I would wait for your SAR and see if what they send is any different to your CCA request. If you've used a template from on here then you should get other info too, like a record of all the calls, but they mess around with this too from what I'm reading on here.

 

Hi ho.......hi ho......it's off to MBNA we go.....

 

Enjoy the rest of the weekend- don't let them spoil it!

[citizenB]

First of all, having read the initial letter from LCS... the letter does set out to frighten and elicit a kneejerk reaction and it had it's desired effect. It is for this very reason that 1st credit were censured by the OFT just recently.

 

See this The Office of Fair Trading: OFT imposes requirements on 1st Credit over debt collection practices

 

 

I personally think the letter bozalt sent was sent prematurely as LCS (whom I suspect are inhouse solicitors) have a craftily designed letter to set out what action can be taken, that which they may or may not recommend to their client. Until they did advise their client and a proper letter before action or notice of intended litigation was sent then perhaps it would have been better to do nothing.

 

However, the solicitors have missed the point. The letter bozalt sent mentioned the actions that could be taken by him in the event that court action was started. Not that CPR 31:14 was being used in this instance. He was basically asking for a level playing field. Provide me with the information you intend to rely on in court. They have declined.

 

Unfortunately, what is being said is correct in one respect the CCA does allow certain information to be omitted and it is for this reason that there are other avenues advised by pt2537 by which to request a copy of the agreement.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html

 

 

One such route was taken by this CAG member using CPR 31:16

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/165349-smt37-morgan-stanley-goldfish.html

 

I also see further back, that a letter was sent advising initially that an illegible document was sent in respect of the CCA, true, but then went on to point out several discrepancies.. which as pointed out in the response, wouldnt be that obvious if the document was that illegible.

 

You can follow either of the routes in the link above.

 

Make a complaint to the OFT in respect of the article I have linked you to pointing out that LCS are 1st cedit's solicitors. You would need to send a copy of the 1st letter from the solicitor.

 

Or sit on your hands and wait for them to actually send a notice of intended litigation or a claim form.

 

It is always best not to blindly send out letters that have been used previously or template letters. Make sure they are tailored to your specific circumstances and above all, make sure you understand what you are sending out.

 

The good news is they have said they havent issued a claim and confirms my suspicions the original letter was a nasty frightener.

[sunflower99]

First of all, having read the initial letter from LCS... the letter does set out to frighten and elicit a kneejerk reaction and it had it's desired effect. It is for this very reason that 1st credit were censured by the OFT just recently.

 

See this The Office of Fair Trading: OFT imposes requirements on 1st Credit over debt collection practices

 

 

I personally think the letter bozalt sent was sent prematurely as LCS (whom I suspect are inhouse solicitors) have a craftily designed letter to set out what action can be taken, that which they may or may not recommend to their client. Until they did advise their client and a proper letter before action or notice of intended litigation was sent then perhaps it would have been better to do nothing.

 

However, the solicitors have missed the point. The letter bozalt sent mentioned the actions that could be taken by him in the event that court action was started. Not that CPR 31:14 was being used in this instance. He was basically asking for a level playing field. Provide me with the information you intend to rely on in court. They have declined.

 

Unfortunately, what is being said is correct in one respect the CCA does allow certain information to be omitted and it is for this reason that there are other avenues advised by pt2537 by which to request a copy of the agreement.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html

 

 

One such route was taken by this CAG member using CPR 31:16

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/165349-smt37-morgan-stanley-goldfish.html

 

I also see further back, that a letter was sent advising initially that an illegible document was sent in respect of the CCA, true, but then went on to point out several discrepancies.. which as pointed out in the response, wouldnt be that obvious if the document was that illegible.

 

You can follow either of the routes in the link above.

 

Make a complaint to the OFT in respect of the article I have linked you to pointing out that LCS are 1st cedit's solicitors. You would need to send a copy of the 1st letter from the solicitor.

 

Or sit on your hands and wait for them to actually send a notice of intended litigation or a claim form.

 

It is always best not to blindly send out letters that have been used previously or template letters. Make sure they are tailored to your specific circumstances and above all, make sure you understand what you are sending out.

 

The good news is they have said they havent issued a claim and confirms my suspicions the original letter was a nasty frightener.

HI bozalt!

CitB is right ! When they use the word MAY it is normally in most cases an idle threat! It is when they say will that it is more of an indication they are seriously thinking of takeing action Normally threatograms saying we MAY do this or we may do that usually in most can be taken with a pinch of salt!

[bozalt]

First of all, having read the initial letter from LCS... the letter does set out to frighten and elicit a kneejerk reaction and it had it's desired effect. It is for this very reason that 1st credit were censured by the OFT just recently.

 

See this The Office of Fair Trading: OFT imposes requirements on 1st Credit over debt collection practices

 

 

I personally think the letter bozalt sent was sent prematurely as LCS (whom I suspect are inhouse solicitors) have a craftily designed letter to set out what action can be taken, that which they may or may not recommend to their client. Until they did advise their client and a proper letter before action or notice of intended litigation was sent then perhaps it would have been better to do nothing.

 

However, the solicitors have missed the point. The letter bozalt sent mentioned the actions that could be taken by him in the event that court action was started. Not that CPR 31:14 was being used in this instance. He was basically asking for a level playing field. Provide me with the information you intend to rely on in court. They have declined.

 

Unfortunately, what is being said is correct in one respect the CCA does allow certain information to be omitted and it is for this reason that there are other avenues advised by pt2537 by which to request a copy of the agreement.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html

 

 

One such route was taken by this CAG member using CPR 31:16

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/165349-smt37-morgan-stanley-goldfish.html

 

I also see further back, that a letter was sent advising initially that an illegible document was sent in respect of the CCA, true, but then went on to point out several discrepancies.. which as pointed out in the response, wouldnt be that obvious if the document was that illegible.

 

You can follow either of the routes in the link above.

 

Make a complaint to the OFT in respect of the article I have linked you to pointing out that LCS are 1st cedit's solicitors. You would need to send a copy of the 1st letter from the solicitor.

 

Or sit on your hands and wait for them to actually send a notice of intended litigation or a claim form.

 

It is always best not to blindly send out letters that have been used previously or template letters. Make sure they are tailored to your specific circumstances and above all, make sure you understand what you are sending out.

 

The good news is they have said they havent issued a claim and confirms my suspicions the original letter was a nasty frightener.

 

 

 

Finally my internet is working again!!

 

Thanks IFTL, Gaz and Sunflower for your support and advice!

 

Hi CB

 

You are spot on LCS are the inhouse solicitors of 1st credit. I did edit the letters I sent slightly to what is posted here as I didnt want anyone reading the threads to be able to work out who was posting, albiet due to my naivety not fully understanding exactly what I sending!!!

 

I will lodge a complaint with the OFT as advised and see if it has any effect, at the very least its another nail in the coffin for 1st Credit I would hope.

 

The CCA is illegible in places but I did want to point out the noticable defects, should I just have stated that it was illegible and leave it at that, will this weaken my defence if legal action commences??

 

To date I have not received my SAR information but I am guessing this will just contain the illegible contract already provided. I am still making a nominal payment to the account but I really just want to get this sorted. Is it best to now wait and see what their next course of action is and do you think it would it be worth making an offer to settle for around 5% of the debt outstanding, are they likely to settle for less as f & f bearing in mind the CCA problems??

 

Sorry for all the inane questions but I feel like I am drowning in all this at the moment, all but two of my creditors have been understanding and the two that havent cause me 100% of my stress.

 

Once again many thanks to you and all the others on the board who have helped and advised me.

 

B

[citizenB]

Finally my internet is working again!!

 

Thanks IFTL, Gaz and Sunflower for your support and advice!

 

Hi CB

 

You are spot on LCS are the inhouse solicitors of 1st credit. I did edit the letters I sent slightly to what is posted here as I didnt want anyone reading the threads to be able to work out who was posting, albiet due to my naivety not fully understanding exactly what I sending!!!

 

I dont think any real harm has been done bozalt. Do make sure you understand what you are sending out in future, check where other people have been in the same position.. what have they done.. what was the outcome/implications.

 

I will lodge a complaint with the OFT as advised and see if it has any effect, at the very least its another nail in the coffin for 1st Credit I would hope.

 

Yes, I would do that. 1st Credit have already been censured.. now is the time to keep the pressure up with the OFT. They wont get involved in your case as an individual, however the more people send in their complaints the bigger the file at the OFT, the swifter they will act.

 

The CCA is illegible in places but I did want to point out the noticable defects, should I just have stated that it was illegible and leave it at that, will this weaken my defence if legal action commences??

 

I shouldnt think it will affect your defence in the event of litigation. Just be aware that if something is illegible then it is just that.

 

To date I have not received my SAR information but I am guessing this will just contain the illegible contract already provided. I am still making a nominal payment to the account but I really just want to get this sorted. Is it best to now wait and see what their next course of action is and do you think it would it be worth making an offer to settle for around 5% of the debt outstanding, are they likely to settle for less as f & f bearing in mind the CCA problems??

 

When should you be in receipt of your SAR.. keep the pressure up.

 

Sorry for all the inane questions but I feel like I am drowning in all this at the moment, all but two of my creditors have been understanding and the two that havent cause me 100% of my stress.

 

Once again many thanks to you and all the others on the board who have helped and advised me.

 

B

 

Not inane questions at all. As it has so often been pointed out to me.. the only stupid question is the one you DONT ask.

 

You are not alone in this respect, just read round the MBNA threads (which I am sure you have) and see that they have quite a huge UNfan club.

[bozalt]

Not inane questions at all. As it has so often been pointed out to me.. the only stupid question is the one you DONT ask.

 

You are not alone in this respect, just read round the MBNA threads (which I am sure you have) and see that they have quite a huge UNfan club.

 

 

Thanks CB, I am getting there and hope to get my head around everything eventually, so much to learn and I get spooked when I get letters like this.

[citizenB]

Thanks CB, I am getting there and hope to get my head around everything eventually, so much to learn and I get spooked when I get letters like this.

 

 

I have to be honest and admit my panic meter went into meltdown before I discovered CAG

 

Once you get the measure of these people then you will be able to look at things in a different light. Take it one step at a time and things will fall into place.

[ifoughtthelaw]

Hi Bozalt

 

Citizen B - you are a lovely calming influence helping to keep us all on the right track! Having a bit of a wobble myself today having just received my SAR stuff that I will need to go through carefully.

 

Bozalt - I was going to argue the same point as you but I'm not sure now - the application copy was so small it wasn't legible in most parts but when scanned and enhanced larger on a computer I can see there are faults.

 

What I'm wondering now is what is the best way to present this should it go before a court? Is it better to stick with 'it is not legible' and let them prove otherwise, or do you point out the faults from the beginning and take the chance a court would agree? Can we argue 'computer aided' legibility?

 

Just about keeping my head above the water - this site is the lifeline!