Darset v MBNA

[Ioio21/07]

Wow !! Thanks Darset. Lots to think about here xxx

[citizenB]

 

Interesting that they say "We've unsuccessfully tried to contact you." Given that the phones calls have now escalated to twice a week but they still haven't replied to my letter of November 4 (despite promising to do so within 28 days) and, of course, still haven't sent legitimate documents in response to the original CCA request that's rich. Well, and a lie, of course.

 

That statement annoys me intensly.. it just proves they have no access to the history of the account, what letters and calls have been sent and received. Virtually every letter I receive from them starts off "We have tried unsuccessfully at contact you".. whilst then going on to answer, or not as the case may be a query I have raised with them IN RESPONSE to one of their letters:evil:

 

The phone calls are interesting too in that now they simply don't bother with any security questions

 

tsk, tsk, naughty MBNA. I dont suppose you are recording these calls ?

 

Today I amused myself by asking the person concerned how he felt about working for MBNA when everyone seemed to hate them. Was it right, I wanted to know, that the directors and very senior managers were getting millions while he, I assumed, wasn't getting very much. Did he enjoy his job, and so on. I made it clear I was sympathising with him rather than having a go at him but he kept returning to his script and saying that the calls wouldn't stop because that's how the system was programmed.

 

such a shame he didnt feel able to answer those questions you put to him.

[Darset]

Far too long since I've posted but things were very busy up to and over Christmas and then in the new year and I'm only just catching up. Apologies for that - but things are still very much live and so here's an update. Observations and comments welcomed.

 

With some letter or other MBNA enclosed a rather well produced leaflet, in a fetching shade of dark green, which claimed "MBNA ... is a company of people committed to providing you with the finest products backed by consistently top quality service ... " though it then went on to remark, perhaps a little sadly, "Occasionally, we may not live up to our promises to provide you with a high quality of service .. " but, recognising this rare shortfall, promised firmly that any complaint would "be dealt with fairly and promptly." Such a warm glow that gave me particularly as it was followed by a leaflet apparently overlooking the earlier cancelling, freezing or whatever of the accounts which advised me of "Great reasons to use your Abbey Credit Card today!"

 

More generally its random letter generator got going and produced a number of letters only loosely linked to each other and with none of them paying the slightest attention to my complaints or dealing with the points raised in my 24th November letter. Three such samples together with a reply by me are in the attached file MBNA-arrears-4.pdf.

 

During that same period I had five telephone calls, each from a different person and each claiming to be my account manager. In no case did they ask for any proof of my identity other than asking my name. Two or three of them took the view that I might be fussing about trivialities like not having been sent proper CCA material but that was nothing to do with them, that was for the Customer Advocate's Office, and so it would be better for everyone if I just accepted that I needed to pay arrears and that everything had to be sorted properly by the end of the month - that is, by the end of December, the end of January, the end of February, and the end of March, failing which dire consequences would ensue and, no doubt, ensue, ensue and ensue..

 

However, the most recent caller, a couple of days ago, moved on to a new tack namely that MBNA would settle for 50% of what they claim is due but that I had to accept the offer there and then. I said that of course I wasn't going to do that but that if she cared to write to me setting the matter out clearly I would read her letter carefully. She said that wasn't possible as MBNA was a telephone bank and I said that was unfortunate because I was a letter writing person. So she agreed to relax her telephone principles and get a letter out that day although that's yet to appear. There are two points arising from this: first, on the well established principal that whoever concedes first can usually be driven down a fair way from that original offer there should be plenty of room for negotiation if I feel that's a good way to go; second, has MBNA essentially realised that it's on a loser and so is trying to get at least something out of it, I wonder.

 

Before I come to any conclusion on that - and I'd greatly welcome comments and views from others - I need also to go through the 200+ odd pages of paper MBNA sent me in late December, belatedly following my SAR. A quick glance suggests that even at that size it's not complete - there's nothing about criteria used to make a decision on interest rates, for instance - so I may follow up with them or the ICO or both on that.

 

Today I received from Experian my most recent credit report and saw that one of the two MBNA entries was marked to say that I disputed the accuracy of the information which should consequently be treated with care. That's interesting because I haven't actually raised a dispute notice with Experian, merely told MBNA who, for their part, deny that any dispute exists.

 

Time to get some complaint letters off to other bodies, perhaps.

MBNA-arrears-4.pdf

[Darset]

Well, the two letters arrived this morning, differing only in the account and bank/reference details. A copy of one is attached. I think I'll write back saying that I want a firm proposal rather than these vague generalities and reminding them also that it's inappropriate for them to take further action while they fail to meet their stautory obligations.

 

Also got a second credit report, this one from Equifax and which, unlike the Experian one mentioned above, doesn't show the MBNA accounts as disputed.

MBNA-general settlement letter.PDF

[the_shadow]

Well, the two letters arrived this morning, differing only in the account and bank/reference details. A copy of one is attached. I think I'll write back saying that I want a firm proposal rather than these vague generalities and reminding them also that it's inappropriate for them to take further action while they fail to meet their stautory obligations.

 

Also got a second credit report, this one from Equifax and which, unlike the Experian one mentioned above, doesn't show the MBNA accounts as disputed.

 

Hi Darset, a short settlement as whats being offered to you is shown on a credit file as partially satisfied I believe.

[Darset]

a short settlement ... is shown on a credit file as partially satisfied I believe.

Thanks.

 

Just finished ploughing through the results of the SAR and find some interesting things.

 

In what's headed the "Customer Information System" there are entries for each card which refer to my earlier CCA request and add " ... UNABLE TO PROVIDE COPY OF ORIG AGREEMENT ..."

 

In the covering letter they say "Due to archive retrieval issues, Abbey who originally operated your account have been unable to provide an original copy of the credit agreement for account N. Please accept my apologies for any inconvenience caused." (They say they're getting the other one from HBOS and will forward it shortly.)

 

Then there's a note in late October saying that I said that I 'CANT MAKE PAYMENT CUZ HE IS GOING THROUGH FINANCIAL DIFFICULTY' - not something I've ever said as I've always insisted the non-payment is because MBNA has failed to address the interest rate concerns properly and has failed to meet its CCA obligations.

 

There's also a fair number of crossings out with black marker which I suppose is acceptable in that they probably relate to staff names or initials - any thoughts on this and any ideas on how to read what's there? (I can see the marks under the black marker but not sufficiently well to read them. Perhaps UV or IR light would help.)

 

Lastly, there's a comment in the general notes saying that ' ... [MBNA] shall transfer information outside the United Kingdom, including to the United States of America ... ' That's fine if I gave my consent or under certain other circumstances but as they don't appear to have a copy of any original signed form then they can't say that I've given my consent. Transfer of personal data to the US is fine if the US recipient provides adequte safeguards and in the US being a signatory to the Safe Harbor EU-US agreement meets that but AFAICS MBNA isn't a signatory to that agreement,

see ="server:FragmentLib_ExportGov">

[Darset]

What a weird link display! Oddly, it seems to work though.

[the_shadow]

Thanks.

 

Just finished ploughing through the results of the SAR and find some interesting things.

 

In what's headed the "Customer Information System" there are entries for each card which refer to my earlier CCA request and add " ... UNABLE TO PROVIDE COPY OF ORIG AGREEMENT ..."

 

In the covering letter they say "Due to archive retrieval issues, Abbey who originally operated your account have been unable to provide an original copy of the credit agreement for account N. Please accept my apologies for any inconvenience caused." (They say they're getting the other one from HBOS and will forward it shortly.)

 

Then there's a note in late October saying that I said that I 'CANT MAKE PAYMENT CUZ HE IS GOING THROUGH FINANCIAL DIFFICULTY' - not something I've ever said as I've always insisted the non-payment is because MBNA has failed to address the interest rate concerns properly and has failed to meet its CCA obligations.

 

There's also a fair number of crossings out with black marker which I suppose is acceptable in that they probably relate to staff names or initials - any thoughts on this and any ideas on how to read what's there? (I can see the marks under the black marker but not sufficiently well to read them. Perhaps UV or IR light would help.)

 

Lastly, there's a comment in the general notes saying that ' ... [MBNA] shall transfer information outside the United Kingdom, including to the United States of America ... ' That's fine if I gave my consent or under certain other circumstances but as they don't appear to have a copy of any original signed form then they can't say that I've given my consent. Transfer of personal data to the US is fine if the US recipient provides adequte safeguards and in the US being a signatory to the Safe Harbor EU-US agreement meets that but AFAICS MBNA isn't a signatory to that agreement,

see ="server:FragmentLib_ExportGov"> :mad:

[BlueSquirrel]

She said that wasn't possible as MBNA was a telephone bank and I said that was unfortunate because I was a letter writing person.

 

LOVE this!

[AA99]

Thanks.

 

Just finished ploughing through the results of the SAR and find some interesting things.

 

In what's headed the "Customer Information System" there are entries for each card which refer to my earlier CCA request and add " ... UNABLE TO PROVIDE COPY OF ORIG AGREEMENT ..."

 

In the covering letter they say "Due to archive retrieval issues, Abbey who originally operated your account have been unable to provide an original copy of the credit agreement for account N. Please accept my apologies for any inconvenience caused." (They say they're getting the other one from HBOS and will forward it shortly.)

 

Then there's a note in late October saying that I said that I 'CANT MAKE PAYMENT CUZ HE IS GOING THROUGH FINANCIAL DIFFICULTY' - not something I've ever said as I've always insisted the non-payment is because MBNA has failed to address the interest rate concerns properly and has failed to meet its CCA obligations.

 

There's also a fair number of crossings out with black marker which I suppose is acceptable in that they probably relate to staff names or initials - any thoughts on this and any ideas on how to read what's there? (I can see the marks under the black marker but not sufficiently well to read them. Perhaps UV or IR light would help.)

 

Lastly, there's a comment in the general notes saying that ' ... [MBNA] shall transfer information outside the United Kingdom, including to the United States of America ... ' That's fine if I gave my consent or under certain other circumstances but as they don't appear to have a copy of any original signed form then they can't say that I've given my consent. Transfer of personal data to the US is fine if the US recipient provides adequte safeguards and in the US being a signatory to the Safe Harbor EU-US agreement meets that but AFAICS MBNA isn't a signatory to that agreement,

see ="server:FragmentLib_ExportGov">

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/160558-aa99-mbna-account-1-a.html

[Darset]

Mine also came late, in December and immediately before Christmas, when I wrote a second letter threatening to complain to the ICO. They actually then sent it special delivery within a week.

 

I spoke with the ICO this morning and got some useful comment, including suggesting that I ask MBNA for further clarification of the things I asked about and giving me encouragement to complain to them (ICO) if I didn't get a satisfactory response. Following that, I've just sent MBNA the follow up letter attached (MBNA DPA follow up 00) so I'll wait to see what that brings. I think point 3 there is interesting and the more I think about it the more I suspect that there's a mix up between me and another MBNA client.

 

This morning's post brought a flurry of paper from MBNA - two statements, two notices of arrears and one letter from the Head of Customer Assistance shaking his head sadly about what was going on and warning of default. It happened that I'd already written a reply to one of his colleagues in that same department, Natalie Williams (see other attachment, MBNA continuing 00) and so I probably shan't reply to him though I might do by referring to the letter sent to her.

MBNA DPA follow up 00.rtf

MBNA continuing 00.rtf

[WelshMam2009]

Will be interested to see how they reply to the DPA letter!

 

Good luck!!

[Darset]

Well, things seem to be getting livelier. Just had a call from one Mark Dawson at MBNA, a colleague of the previous person I spoke with, Nathalie. He hadn't seen my letter to her so I read out bits of it, again pointing out that IMO MBNA had no right to issue defaults or sell the claimed debt on and although he wanted things settled by the end of the month I couldn't agree with hiim about the urgency.

 

Essentially he offered a 50% reduction and held open the door for haggling. But, he said, he absolutely had to have me make at least one payment on each account, a total of just over £200, today. 'No chance!' I said, until he set everything out in writing and I'd considered it. If I paid those claimed arrears, he said, he would knock it off any settlement figure. He had 5,000 imminently defaulting accounts to look after, he said, and so he couldn't go writing letters to each one. 'Fine' I said 'but if you'd used the time you've spent arguing with me on the phone you could have written the letter by now.' Anyway, we ended the conversation amicably enough with me refusing to do anything until I'd had a detailed formal proposition to consider.

 

Five minutes later the phone rings again. By chance, said Mark, his manager had just walked past and so he'd asked him if MBNA could go any lower and he was pleased to say that they could go to 60% discount. But it had to be agreed today etc. etc. 'No chance' I said, until etc. etc..

 

He asked if I was a homeowner (I'm not) and said that if we discussed things later around a settlement he'd need details of how I would raise the money. I said he could whistle for that - it was enough for me to say I'd pay, if that's what I chose to do having considered everything, and where I got the money was none of his business.

 

A few questions/thoughts ...

 

I wonder what max discount they'd go for.

 

I wonder how much they get when they sell the debt on. (My guess is 5-10%)

 

I wonder how realistic is the claim that things have to be settled by the end of the month. (They said much the same in January and February, possibly also December). Why are they particularly pushing hard forsome form of agreement right now?

 

If there is a real risk of either registering a default and/or selling the debt on (irrespective of the legality or otherwise of their doing so) what are the implications of my making the single payment requested in order to ensure that's headed off for the moment? I can't see that doing that would compromise my position, particularly if I made it clear it was being done without prejudice and to ensure that their precipitate action was stopped to give time for more detailed negotiation.

 

Why are they so insistent that this payment should be made? The total sum including all penalties and added interest (which, of course, I dispute anyway) is nearly £19,500 so even with a 60% discount £200 is fairly trivial. Do they think they'll get nothing and so anything they can wring out of me is a bonus?

 

Are the issues I've spelled out in my letter re the DPA stuff sufficient to cause them further concern and stop them taking immediate action?

 

Anyone been through a similar process of haggling/settling?

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Darset!

 

If you intend shaking hands with the MBNA, do count your fingers afterwards!

 

I've only had a quick whiz through your Thread, so forgive me if I've missed any key bits.

 

I would stick to your guns on all of the main issues, such as:

 

(1) The Agreements, have they produced clear copies of those, and confirmed they have the Originals with all of the Terms they claim were on them, are actually on them?

 

(2) Have you seen any Default Notice(s) (I see you mention it/them)?

 

(3) Have they Terminated your Account(s)?

 

(4) Do you have any Charges or PPI to reclaim or Counter-Claim?

 

(5) Have the MBNA engaged in any Telephone Harassment? Have you logged this?

 

If MBNA want you to make a Payment, be very aware that what they are probably after is a Short Settlement. That means you Pay them a lump sum, but the Debt(s) continue, they will still Sell to a DCA anyway, one or both of them will Default you, and then the DCA will chase you for the Rest of the alleged Balance(s).

 

Net result is you are no better off, the Debt(s) still exist, and you are also a few thousand pounds poorer...plus, to add insult to injury, the 6 Year Statute Barred Clock has been re-set to your Payment Date. The DCA will hound you for a further 6 Years from the last Payment!

 

I'd also cut them off from Telephone Contact. The MBNA cannot be trusted, and anything nice or reasonable they do say, will soon be denied if it suits them.

 

I'd advise keeping it all in writing, however inconvenient that may seem and however more convenient the Telephone may seem. It just seems that way. You are always far better off keeping things in writing.

 

The MBNA did often make a mess of the Terms, so if you have not yet seen your Agreements, then it's vital that you do. Indeed, if you have yet to see them, then slam on the brakes now until you do!

 

Sorry this is general, but the MBNA will do whatever the MBNA wants to do, and will do it regardless of any nice Telephone conversations you have made, or regardless of any discounted Payments you make.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[Darset]

If you intend shaking hands with the MBNA, do count your fingers afterwards!

Nice way of putting it!

 

Thanks very much for the helpful comments.

 

1. There are two accounts and I have a letter from MBNA apologising that 'archival retrieval issues' mean that they can't supply a copy of one of the original agreements. There are also entries in my internal records with them that say in each case that they're unable to provide copies. (See post 57). Despite that they have supplied, late, something which looks like an agreement copy but I've not fully checked that; it certainly didn't include documentation referred to. (All this from 2 x CCA and an SAR request).

 

2. They keep threatening default but nothing's been done. There are periodic 'notice of arrears' documents sent.

 

3. That's unclear. In October they wrote that a restriction had been placed on each account, that no further transactions would be authorised, and asked me to return the cards. Yet in February they sent a letter relating to one of the accounts changing some T&Cs and giving me 'great reasons to use my Abbey credit card today'.

 

4. They have charged a late fee each month and, latterly, also an overlimit fee. I've told them verbally that I don't accept either those or any interest charged from the dispute beginning till now. I never accept PPI.

 

5. Not really. They've phoned occasionally but only in an idiot, script-determined way, never particuarly aggressively.

 

Your comments about short settlement - the phrase they actually used - are interesting particularly as the clear implication of the discussion was that an agreed discounted payment would clear completely the claimed debt, the alternative held out to me being the subsequent purchaser would chase me much harder than MBNA would do and would go for the full amount. Certainly I'd never agree to anything like that without its being clearly set down in writing, including that it was in full and final settlement, but if what you say is correct they're clearly more devious and dishonest than I'd realised. This also explains their wish to have another payment, even a small one, made now and why it should be by debit card.

 

I do tend to write rather than speak with them and I'm pretty careful about keeping stuff so I've got an almost complete record. Some conversations have been recorded and for others I've noted relevant information.

 

Thanks again.

[the_shadow]

I do tend to write rather than speak with them and I'm pretty careful about keeping stuff so I've got an almost complete record. Some conversations have been recorded and for others I've noted relevant information.

 

Thanks again.

 

Darset, I have to say your letter writing is crisp, concise and to the point and a pleasure to read as you really get the point across, it makes me wish I'd paid more attention at school:)

 

......Its not your fault that at the other end is a moron who is unable to read plain english:D and can only follow a simple script on a screen, puts me in mind of lab rats on a set course with no allowance for deviation.

 

As BRW advises, the banks NEVER have your best interests at heart, only their own... as an american company its all about the bottom line

 

PmW

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Darset!

 

I think you can argue with them for a while yet, no need to go paying them anything!

 

Do also remember that Statute Barred issue, that is often why these bankers want a Payment, as it just keeps re-setting the 6 Year Clock each time a Payment is made.

 

There is some talk of reducing that to 3 Years, so my advice to all is to avoid paying these people anything unless there is a blinding binding Agreement.

 

Never forget that these bankers were falling over themselves to issue expensive Credit Cards and Loans with PPI, and they did not do that for charitable reasons.

 

When you have 5 minutes, OK, an hour or two, I'd work out what you actually do owe. Many people are quite shocked to find they have often repaid more than they have ever spent. Thus, any alleged Balance is effectively the sum total of all of their Charges, Interest and Penalties.

 

If the Agreement is wobbly, then people must think twice about paying them anything. It is entirely the bankers' own fault for not getting the Agreements right in the first place, and for failing to look after them if they ever did have valid ones.

 

From your above comments, I think MBNA are in a very weak position. The other question you must ask yourself is...do they have the Agreements but do not want to show them, as they know how bad they are!

 

Many banks seem to hide behind the true copy issue to cover up for the fact that they never did have a valid Agreement in the first place. It's a very handy excuse to cover up an otherwise hopeless situation for them.

 

I do hope this has helped.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[angel_1]

hiya Darset

 

i understand from my own experience that mbna will always try the nice approach to get any payment from you but then the sting in the tail was after i disputed the clarity of my agreements to default and sell my debt on cos i didnt respond to their 50% reduction,,,,,,hmmm

 

i totally agree with BRW always wise words and always makes me feel better after reading - and again i learn something new today

 

yes tot up the total and you will be surprised like i was

 

also BRW - im glad i was not the only one who read somewhere about the 3 yrs instead of the 6 years re statute barred debts,,,,

 

if you can link me to where you read it much appreciated as i want to inform another cagger and i cant for the life of me remember where i read this info, i think it might have been a news article?

 

well still wishing you lots of luck and well.. lots of patience in this and keep reading

 

laters all angel x

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Angel!

 

also BRW - im glad i was not the only one who read somewhere about the 3 yrs instead of the 6 years re statute barred debts,,,,

 

if you can link me to where you read it much appreciated as i want to inform another cagger and i cant for the life of me remember where i read this info, i think it might have been a news article?

I regret I read it somewhere on CAG! Not very helpful there I'm afraid.

 

It is not law yet, just something being suggested, but I think it could well appear as the world and his dog are going to be saddled with Debt, thanks to the idiot banks. The bank-Politicians have realised that 6 Years is a long time for UK plc to be constrained by Debt issues...they'll never get people back to borrowing buckets of expensive number-money if there is nobody out there who can actually get any Credit!

 

As I keep saying, we need new anti-bank Politicians and 95% fewer bankers. Bailouts running into the mega-billions suggest this is not far from the truth. Sadly, this is a side show to the real evil, namely the gathering of assets that is now going on, as the banks Hoover up assets as people and businesses go to the wall.

 

It's what they do every time there's a Recession. Almost like the banks want a Recession every 10-15 years or so!

 

They wouldn't do that deliberately, would they?

 

Cheers,

BRW

[angel_1]

Thanks BRW

 

for your reply,, i know what you mean,,,and sorry Darset for our thoughts on your thread, but i did want to alert you to the possible 3 year instead of 6 years and it would really help us all in the end,,, trying to keep positive

 

im sure i will eventually come across it again and once i do i will post up for you both

 

laters all keep smiling,,,,angel x:D

[Darset]

Thanks, PMW, for your kind remarks. And Angel, I'm perfectly happy that you raised the points you did - while it may be my thread, the real point is to ensure that everyone, not just me, learns from each other and gets advice to succeed against this rapacious wunch and so the more information of that kind the better for all. Thanks for that and thanks to brw for his/her comments.

[Darset]

And another standard letter, this one headed enticingly "Unfortunately, You Leave Us No Other Alternative......." I suppose they think that using all initial capitals makes it more scary. Or maybe they've just run out of smaller letters and can't afford to buy more, given their current problems. Essentially it says that they now 'have no choice but to pursue other options'. At least one of the accounts will be written off as a bad debt [well, if that happens then that's the end of it - but of course they don't mean that]. They also threaten legal action and third party reference or sale, all very vague.

 

I thought I'd up things a bit and reiterate my position so I've replied, saying:

 

"It’s simply not acceptable that MBNA should continue churning out standard threatening letters such as your most recent one of 16th March reference 150 RMUOPT (UK) while ignoring your legal obligations.

You have failed to supply me with the proper information on the accounts referenced above which I requested under the Consumer Credit Act and have reminded you of on several occasions. I’ve explained clearly to you, by reference to the Act and to advice from the Office of Fair Trading, and on several occasions why you’re in breach.

Quite apart from other issues triggering the initial dispute you have also failed to supply adequate information following my Subject Access Request, while there is some indication that the records you hold are inaccurate and misleading. I’ve set these matters out in detail in my recent letter to your compliance department.

Until this dispute is properly resolved – a matter largely dependant on your acting more responsibly – you have no right or authority to charge interest, issue penalty fees or dispose of the accounts in any way whether to debt collectors or to others. I have explained this to you on various occasions.

 

I look forward, albeit without much confidence, to receiving from you the material that a responsible organisation would readily have supplied long before now. In the meantime, you might like to consider more fully whether treating English or UK law with disdain, as a matter irrelevant to how MBNA chooses to condust business, is really the most prudent way for you to behave."

 

Won't do the slightest bit of good in the short term, of course, but will add to the evidence accumulated if matters go further, which is really the point.

[citizenB]

I like your response Darset

[Darset]

Thanks!

[angel_1]

hiya Darset

 

just passing by and i can see you are in a very business mode,,,sock it to em,,,.lol

 

laters angel x