Darset v MBNA

[Darset]

Odd - look's all right but you're right, I get a 404 as well.

 

Anyway, try this:

CCA copy document regualtions 1983 / 1557 - The Consumer Forums

[angel_1]

Oh hiya guys

 

im also at this sort of stage, if you check out my mbna threads

 

i cant get to the link neither Darset, won't load up

 

ive had a letter asking me to fax copy of my id or to call them directly to a person who has had my request for my sars passed to - given me a direct tel no which is constantly engaged, hmmmmmmmmme me thinking poss saturdy they are busy or,,,,,,are more or less enticing me to use the fax and fax my id,,,,,no way hosay .....

 

so will be back later to see if another link will work for me ta very much have a fun weekend ciao - laters maz

[Darset]

Time to reply to Bez Shaw's assertion that MBNA has supplied what they were required to. Here's my letter to her:

 

 

---

 

26th September 2008

 

Your reference: BYS/CA

Accounts: [relevant numbers here]

 

 

 

Dear Bez Shaw

 

Thank you for your letter of 15th September where you claim that what you supplied earlier in response to my request for a copy of the original agreement relating to these accounts is sufficient.

 

I’m afraid, however, that you’re quite wrong in this. Further, your assertion that the original document was supplied for me to keep and so absolves you from your duties under the Act is a quite bizarre claim.

 

The Act is quite clear in Section 78(1), confirmed in subsequent statutory instruments, that you have a duty to supply on request a true copy of the executed agreement that contains all the prescribed terms and which was signed by both your company and by myself and, further, that if that executed agreement contained references to other documents you are obliged also to include copies of those.

 

I made my formal request on 11th August and as you failed to comply with my statutory request within the required period of twelve working days and a further two days for post you became in default on 28th August. As a result the alleged debts have become unenforceable and, further, if you fail to comply with the requirements of the Act within a further month of that second date you will have committed a criminal offence.

 

As a result of your failure to discharge your duties under the Act I am advising you formally that these accounts are in dispute and that until the matter is resolved I am ceasing to make any payments against the alleged debts. You will be aware, I’m sure, that in such a situation you are not permitted to take action against that account until the dispute is resolved. You may not, for instance, demand further payment on the account and nor may you add further interest charges to the account. In addition, you may not sell or otherwise dispose of the account to a third party, register a default notice on the account nor register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

 

I’m anxious to have this matter resolved in a satisfactory manner and I look forward, therefore, to receiving from you the necessary copy documents referred to earlier within fourteen days – that is, by Friday 10th October – or else learning of your considered proposals to deal with the matter and with your breach of your statutory duty.

 

Please note that I am not prepared to discuss the matter by telephone and therefore you should not attempt to telephone me on this or any other number you may hold for me without my express permission subsequent to this letter.

 

Yours sincerely

---

 

 

Let's see what they do next. Clearly they don't have copies of the original documents so I suppose they'll continue to claim that they've done what they were required to and perhaps start harassing me to pay.

[AA99]

Am about a month behind you on this trail so will keep watching but not posting till I can contribute. My threads are brightening up and the news on the radio and the tele is music to my ears in a way, I am not alone, I even caught myself whistling tonight, something I haven't done for a long time!

[angel_1]

thanks Darset

 

just the letter i was looking for may i take bits out im now very very cross!! with the dribble ive had from mbna/all leics who are confusing me with diff letterheads,

off to do -

 

good luck ciao maz

[Darset]

Sorry to have been so long in updating everything. Things have been really busy and I suppose I've seen this MBNA stuff as an unwelcome distraction. Still, it's not going to go away by itself and as I said at the start posting my experiences might help others - quite apart from the help I get from others' comments - so here's a number of postings to bring things up to date.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

The new name which has emerged is Matthew McGrath who calls himself Head of Customer Assistance and writes on behalf of both Abbey and MBNA from Chester. His signature appears as cursive type rather than handwritten but whether that means he doesn't exist either I don't know.

 

First up are two letters signed by said Matthew, one each for Abbey and MBNA. They're virtually identical, right down to the standard letter references which are [CAS for MBNA, ACA for Abbey, then] GBB1 1-1 UK-EN and LL 014 08288 0000YXD [iD code] 31. "//" below means new paragraph.

 

The letters themselves read: "[Address and identifying details] Following a review today a restriction has been placed on your account. We ask that you cut up your credit cards and credit card cheques and return them to us. As from today no further transactions will be authorised.// They must be returned to [Chester address].// If you have a monthly subscription on this account you must contact the organisation involved to cancel this immediately.// If you've any concerns as to why we've taken this action on your account, please call one of our [specialists for MBNA but only advisors for Abbey] on [0800 028 0690 for MBNA, 0800 068 3558 for Abbey] and they will discuss this with you.// Our specialists/advisors are available Monday to Friday 9am to 5pm/ ["signed" by Matthew McGrath].

 

I ignored these entirely.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Next up were a pair of letters from Abbey, again signed by McGrath. The first was dated October 20 and read as follows:

 

"[identifying, account and claimed balance and arrears figures]// Despite the reminder on your recent statement, we've not received the arrears due on your account and would ask that you make payment as soon as possible. Please don't try to use your card until your account is up to date. Receipt of payment can be confirmed by ringing 08459 724 724.// Prompt payment avoids late charges and reduces the amount of interest you pay. A good credit record is vital if you plan further borrowings for a mortgage or a personal load. Call today to make a debit card payment on freephone 0800 068 3558; at your own bank using your statement giro; or by cheque payable to 'MBNA EBL', sent to: [bolton address]// (Please write your credit card account number on the front left-hand corner of the cheque.)// Future payments can be made by automated methods, such as Direct Debit. Please contact us to discuss these options in more details.// Remember, pay now and avoid further late charges. If you're unable to make your payment please don't ignore this letter. Our advisors are available to assist you on 0800 068 3558 Monday to Thursday 9am to 9pm, Friday 9am to 7pm and Saturday 9am to 1pm/// [And in bold] If you have made a payment on the account to cover the arrears in the last 3 days please ignore this letter. ["signed"].

 

The second was dated October 30, also from McGrath and read:

 

"[identifying, account and claimed balance and arrears figures]// Despite a recent reminder, we've not yet received your payment of [£nnn.nn] to bring your account up to date. You need to clear the arrears as another payment will fall due soon.// If you choose not to pay, your arrears will be reported to the Credit Reference Agency and the use of your card will be withdrawn. These actions may severely restrict your ability to borrow in the future.// Please don't try to use the card until your payment is credited; its rejection and refusal can cause inconvenience and embarrassment. [Rest of the letter pretty similar to the end of that one above].

 

I ignored these letters completely as well.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

On, I think, 31st October and 3rd November there were phone calls from MBNA some time shortly after 8.00. These were taken by someone else in the household who simply said I wasn't around. On 4th November at around 08.30 there was a call from a James Thompson from MBNA but as I refused to give any security details it didn't progress. James encouraged me to call MBNA on 0800 389 9001 and I decided to do that at around 12.30 to go on the offensive and complain. I spoke to a woman who was pretty abrupt in manner, went through what seemed to me perfectly adequate identification processes but then I refused to give my place of birth (sure, I was being difficult, having had enough of this nonsense and timewasting on the phone). I explained to her that the account was in dispute, that MBNA hadn't met its obligations under the CCA, that I'd asked for no telephone calls and asked her to note all this against my name. She refused on the grounds that I hadn't completed their security procedures but declined to offer me any alternative routes. I insisted several times that I wanted speak to a supervisor but she then hung up on me. I recorded the conversation, as usual.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------

 

Around then I received a chasing letter from a company called Aegis BPO Services Limited, based in Mumbai. This is scanned and attached as MBNA-AEGIS.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------

 

On 4th November I wrote to Matthew McGrath. This letter is copied in the next posting which also has a reply and notes on various other chasing letters.

Edited November 24, 2008 by Darset

[Darset]

Sorry, that JPG is unreadable. I'm trying again with it converted to PDF.

MBNA-Aegis.pdf

[Darset]

Here's the text of my letter to Matthew McGrath:

 

[Address and miscellaneous identifying information]

 

Dear Matthew McGrath

 

Thank you for your various standard letters, namely:

 

a.a letter relating to each account, dated 14th October advising that a restriction has been placed on the account and that no further transactions will be authorised;

b.a letter dated 20th October in respect of account [number] referring to alleged arrears;

c.a letter dated 30th October in respect of the same account and referring also to alleged arrears.

 

I regret, however, that neither you nor any relevant colleague has yet replied either to my letter of 20th August to your Thomas Rebel in respect of account [number] or to my letter of 26th September in respect of both accounts to your colleague Bez Shaw of the Compliance Department. I’m happy to send copies of these letters to you if you wish.

 

I further note that despite my stating clearly in my letter to Thomas Rebel, cited above, and further annotating accordingly my cheque [number] drawn on [bank Name] that the payment of £250 to you in respect of account [number] was to be allocated as not more than £155 in respect of interest and the remaining £95 as capital repayment and that acceptance of the payment by you constituted your agreement to this condition, you have failed to show correctly on the subsequent statement issued this division. You have also, quite wrongly, placed a £12 default charge on that account and I should like you immediately to reverse that and to correct the other relevant figures.

 

Further, despite my requesting you to reply in writing and despite the clear evidence of the accounts noted being in dispute between us you have so far on three occasions made unwarranted telephone calls to my home telephone number seeking payment of what you claim are arrears on account [number] . One of these calls was made last week to [someone] and a further call was made to [someone] on Monday 3rd November while on Tuesday 4th November at approximately 08.30 I spoke briefly to your colleague James Thompson during which I advised him of the current situation. Later that day I called your offices on 0800 389 9001, the number he supplied, but had an unsatisfactory discussion during which, inter alia, your telephone colleague refused to pass my call to a supervisor and eventually hung up on me. Please note that I shall not accept telephone calls from your offices except by specific prior arrangement and that you should advise your colleagues accordingly.

 

In your letter of 30th October, identified as c. above, you appear unaware of your own letters of 14th October, identified as a. above, in that you warn me not to use the card identified until an alleged arrears payment has been made and that the card risks being withdrawn, this being the same card which you have earlier effectively cancelled. The quality of your own internal management and reconciliation of information is perhaps your own business although it does, of course, add to the impression of confusion and incompetence which your fractured correspondence with me has already created and which, together with other matters, clearly shows your claim of “consistently top quality service” to be nugatory.

 

In that same letter you warn that you will report me to “the Credit Reference Agency” if I fail to make the payment which you allege is due. Presumably you actually intend this odd phrase to mean that you will make a negative report about me to one of the three relevant agencies Experian, Equifax or CallCredit. I must warn you that if you do take such action in the present circumstances I shall consider any such report as defamatory and shall take appropriate action accordingly.

 

As I mentioned in my letter of 26th September to Bez Shaw I’m anxious to have the matters resolved in a satisfactory manner; this remains my position. Consequently I’m disappointed that you’ve chosen to ignore my letters, that you’ve failed to comply with your statutory duties under the CCA, and that you appear to be intent on harassing me about an alleged debt rather than dealing with matters as you should. I’d urge you, therefore, to act in a more responsible way both to meet your obligations and to resolve matters properly.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in the very near future.

 

Yours sincerely

 

[signed]

 

 

This resulted in a standard holding letter dated 17th November which read:

 

"[identifying and reference details]// Thank you for your recent letter.// We are currently investigating your complaint and will issue a response within 28 days.// I have enclosed a copy of our internal complaint procedure leaflet for your information.// In the meantime, should you have any queries please call the Customer Advocate Office on 01244 672628 between the houses of 9am and 5pm Monday to Friday.// Yours sincerely,// [Facsimile signature]// Gail Powell// Vice President"

 

 

However, before that arrived I received several other chasing letters and these are detailed in the next posting.

[Darset]

More chasing letters ...

 

RMA, based in Preston, sent me a letter dated 12th November seeking payment. This is attached as MBNA-RMA.pdf. This is the second letter from RMA and although I replied to the first one pointing out the dispute I ignored this one. However, it was followed by a phone call on Tuesday 18th November at around 11.40 from a very amiable man with whom I had a fairly long conversation despite refusing to give my security checking details; I pointed out that there was a dispute, that RMA had already had a letter from me and that I was waiting for MBNA to get its act together and he kept encouraging me to phone MBNA.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I then received a formal notice of arrears from MBNA detailing the sums claimed and enclosing with it the necessary notice from the OFT. The arrears letters is attached as MBNA-arrears-1.pdf and the OFT leaflet as MBNA-OFT.pdf. The arrears letters shows the total debt claimed and the claimed arrears although this is concealed in the copy.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Matthew McGrath surfaced again on 13th November, this time as the author of another chasing letter in fetching pink. This is attached as MBNA-pink.PDF. He followed this swiftly with a further couple of letters, one dated 15th and the other 18th November, one to each account. These are attached as MBNA-arrears-2.pdf and MBNA-arrears-3.pdf.

MBNA-RMA.PDF

MBNA-arrears-1.PDF

MBNA-arrears-2.PDF

MBNA-arrears-3.PDF

MBNA-OFT.PDF

[fedup74]

Subbing. Some really good letters there(the ones you have sent them of course!!) Had to laugh at your 1st attachment "As a valued MBNA customer"!! MBNA make up their own rules. I have reported them to the FOS re selling on an account when in dispute. At least I have cost them some money for a change! Good luck:)

[Darset]

Recording

 

I mentioned recording telephone conversations earlier. In case it's useful to others the device I use (and have used for years) is the ReTell 157. This sits between the handset and the curly cord or else between the base cord and the socket and the other end plugs into any standard mini-jack mic or line-in socket ona computer system (or tape recorder, minidisc player and so on). ReTell (retell.co.uk) sells this on its own for around £30 or with their very expensive 957 recording software as a bundle. However, you can use any other software you choose which can pick up input - Audacity (Audacity: Free Audio Editor and Recorder) is particularly good and, being open source software, is completely free to use. It generates Wave, MP3 and Ogg-Vorbis files and is pretty versatile.

 

Maplins, and probably others, also sell the ReTell 157 at around £20 and the similar 156 for around £12.00. Note, however, that the 156 will work with standalone devices but doesn't work well with computers.

[Darset]

Can't upload the MBNA-pink.pdf file for some reason. Sorry - I'll try again tomorrow.

[Darset]

Seems the file's too big, so here it is in B&W.

Edited November 25, 2008 by Darset

[fedup74]

Darset is that your name on the letter? If it is take it off quick- prying eyes and all that!!

[Darset]

Oops! Thanks very much. Correct file now uploaded.

MBNA-pinkB&W.PDF

[fedup74]

No problem. I think Matthew will be inviting you for dinner soon, the amount of letters he has sent:D He is a very busy bee (or should that be B?)

[Darset]

Sorry - ignore this. Can see no way of cancelling or deleting a message written but not posted, short of simply shutting the browser.

[Ioio21/07]

Hi all sorry to jump in. Im new here and Im in dispute with MBNA and Intrum Justitia. Ive Cca`d both and had letters from both telling me they cannot supply the agreement. Ive sent them both notice that I will not pay further until the cca is supplied and Intrum have gone all quiet.

 

MBNA however have carried on as if nothing has been said, they only managed to send me a copy of the T`s and C`s and an offer of another card as I dont have one "registered with them at the moment".

 

I have reported both MBNA and Intrum to the Financial Ombusman and trading Standards and have told everyone involved that I am suffering from a heart condition and am on anti D`s. Ive had to have my phone cut off because of all the phone calls and Im feeling a bit isolated can anyone advise what else I can do ?? Im sorry to be a nuisance but its really worrying me and my wife. We were able to reconcile all our other debts and paid them off but cant find anything for these two. We`re not scrounging just asking IJ and MBNA to give us some information and they cant so what do we do ??

Edited December 7, 2008 by Ioio21/07

[Ioio21/07]

BTW:

 

Since I started all this Ive attracted a lot of "friends" in the Manchester area to my Facebook account. Someone called Bez something or other and one Wayne Hatton who works for, guess who ?????

 

Might be pure coincidence but it might be an idea to upgrade your security settings if you`ve got a Facebook account

[Darset]

Your comments suggest you're having difficulty coping and so perhaps you and your wife would benefit from getting direct support from a debt adviser.

 

There are three organisations I'm aware of that work in this area:

Credit Action at Credit Action | Welcome to CreditAction.org.uk

Consumer Credit Counselling Service at CCCS - Free Debt Advice from the UK's Leading Debt Charity and

Bankruptcy Advisory Service at Debt and money problems? contact Bankruptcy Advisory Service

 

The first two are charities and, I believe, very helpful and well regarded while the third is apparently also well regarded but is not, AFAIK, a charity. There's also the CAB although my experience there (not in respect of debt) is that the quality of advice and support is very variable. You could also contact your MP though that support is again going to be very variable.

 

You don't actually need to cancel your phone, of course, but simply have the number changed and, if necessary, keep it ex-directory.

 

I've come to realise with MBNA that they simply don't care about discussing things reasonably but prefer to push and harass to try to browbeat people into paying. Their systems are set up to make automatic calls and nothing you say to them by telephone or, indeed, by letter seems to make any difference.

[Darset]

And another!

 

Here's the latest standard letter from MBNA.

 

Interesting that they say "We've unsuccessfully tried to contact you." Given that the phones calls have now escalated to twice a week but they still haven't replied to my letter of November 4 (despite promising to do so within 28 days) and, of course, still haven't sent legitimate documents in response to the original CCA request that's rich. Well, and a lie, of course.

 

The phone calls are interesting too in that now they simply don't bother with any security questions (which I wouldn't answer anyway) but just start chatting away, basically saying every time that they've answered everything, that I need to make payment, that my credit record will be affected and that they'll register a default. I say that they haven't answered, that they obviously don't care about customer relations, that if they register a default I'll consider taking action for defamation and that the documents they sent re the CCA request are inadequate.

 

Today I amused myself by asking the person concerned how he felt about working for MBNA when everyone seemed to hate them. Was it right, I wanted to know, that the directors and very senior managers were getting millions while he, I assumed, wasn't getting very much. Did he enjoy his job, and so on. I made it clear I was sympathising with him rather than having a go at him but he kept returning to his script and saying that the calls wouldn't stop because that's how the system was programmed.

MBNA-arrears-081204.pdf

[sherry1980]

deleted this post as I posted her in error.... Sorry

cca mbna 1.pdf

Edited December 8, 2008 by sherry1980
srry posted here by accident..

[Ioio21/07]

And another!

 

Here's the latest standard letter from MBNA.

 

Interesting that they say "We've unsuccessfully tried to contact you." Given that the phones calls have now escalated to twice a week but they still haven't replied to my letter of November 4 (despite promising to do so within 28 days) and, of course, still haven't sent legitimate documents in response to the original CCA request that's rich. Well, and a lie, of course.

 

The phone calls are interesting too in that now they simply don't bother with any security questions (which I wouldn't answer anyway) but just start chatting away, basically saying every time that they've answered everything, that I need to make payment, that my credit record will be affected and that they'll register a default. I say that they haven't answered, that they obviously don't care about customer relations, that if they register a default I'll consider taking action for defamation and that the documents they sent re the CCA request are inadequate.

 

Today I amused myself by asking the person concerned how he felt about working for MBNA when everyone seemed to hate them. Was it right, I wanted to know, that the directors and very senior managers were getting millions while he, I assumed, wasn't getting very much. Did he enjoy his job, and so on. I made it clear I was sympathising with him rather than having a go at him but he kept returning to his script and saying that the calls wouldn't stop because that's how the system was programmed.

 

 

Superb Darset. You give us all hope

[Ioio21/07]

Ive reported MBNA to Essex Trading Standards but they have said that MBNA CAN take me to court who may estalish that is an established debt and enforce payment. I thought that if it was in dispute they couldnt take me to court and even if they tried a lack of cca is total defence ?? Whats going on ???

[Darset]

Firstly, IANAL and, in any case, haven't researched things adequately yet although I have indeed read extensively through many of the relevant postings on the CAG site.

 

I guess there are two distinct issues, namely what evidence shows that a certain state of affairs exists or very probably exists and, separately, what is needed to enforce a judgement of some sort.

 

If MBNA has been sending you statements regularly and you've been making payments with at least some regularity to that alleged debt I guess most people would say that reasonable evidence of that debt from you to MBNA exists. After all, if it didn't, why would you go on paying? Of course, there are plenty of possible cases where you might well act in ways which suggest that you recognise the debt, and so continue to pay it, but where you're actually wrong: you might have lost all your paperwork and not realise it had already been cleared; the bank might have made a mistake which you hadn't noticed; you might think someone else had actually contracted the debt but that it was your responsibility; you might think you'd forgotten about the debt and that MBNA must be right; and so on and so on. But in general, it's fairly easy to establish circumstances where what appears to be a legitimate debt exists which is accepted by the debtor.

 

However, AIUI, that's an entirely different matter from the issue of the formal legitimacy of the debt arising out of whether the debt was entered into using the proper procedures. This is related to issues like the misselling of endowment mortgages, for instance, or persuading someone who is suffering from a particular mental condition limiting their ability to have made informed decisions, being rescued from inappropriate debts.

 

What the original agreement does is to show that all the procedures which needed to be followed (at least as far as that part was concerned) have indeed been followed. It seems also to be the case that the original agreement has a relevance over and above that in that in the default case without it, or a "true copy", it may be extremely difficult to show that the proper initial procedures were followed and it follows that if they were not followed the debt - although it "exists" according to the comments above - doesn't exist legally and that therefore the bank is deemed to have made a non-recoverable gift of the money.

 

I think this is pretty much the view of people here on CAG who seem to know what they're talking about but I haven't myself had time to track down other views, or case references, supporting this. I believe it's also the case that Trading Standards officers are in turn frequently confused about what are, firstly, fairly complex legal issues and, secondly, seem to fly in the face of "common sense" (that is, that a debt obviously exists) and so may give misleading advice or not take action when they should.

 

Remember, also, that the issue is not taking you to court but winning the relevant case. With some exceptions, pretty much anyone can take anyone else to court but it's a waste of time and money doing it unless there's a good chance of success, either by winning the court case or by frightening the plaintiff so much that they give in beforehand. I suspect a large number of threats of court action actually have this second aim in view and countering this is precisely why a site such as this one can be so useful both in terms of advice and solidarity.

 

There's also the issue of "moral responsibility" - the debt clearly exists and so you should meet it if you possibly can, irrespective of whether the exact requirements have been met. That's a view that can colour thinking strongly.

 

Well, given that many corporations, perhaps banks particularly, play by the rules (including their own private ones) when it's to their advantage I'd say it's entirely legitimate that they be obliged to play by the rules when it hurts them. If a bank insists, say, that its T&Cs give it full authority to charge you 35% APR, that you signed it and so you'll just have to put up with it and so, tough, then if there's any fault in their procedures which makes the debt unenforceable it seems to me entirely fair game, morally as well as legally, to exploit that. Trading relationships have changed in the past couple of decades or so and the banks have brought a great deal of this on themselves on account of their greed and, in many case, sheer incompetence. Go for it! Perhaps someone else will give you better chapter and verse with which to rebut the Trading Standards' claims.