Parcelforce clearance fee's (C&E duty etc)

[Cracked_Chap]

It's not a statement - it's an email from Royal Mail confirming that you don't have to pay their fee, also, if I don't post it every time, when new people come on here they will be fooled by the two prats that protect Royal mail:

 

Thank you for your email 23 April to Mandy Talbot regarding the Royal Mail handling fee. As you are aware I have been asked to look into your case and respond directly to you.

 

Firstly, please accept my apologies that it has been necessary for you to bring this matter to my attention. I fully appreciate how important it is for our customers to have confidence in our ability to provide a reliable service and it is always disappointing when a customer expresses dissatisfaction with any aspect of what we do.

 

I should explain that we are obliged to release any item of mail if you elect to pay the VAT charge so by way of apology I have advised the Delivery Office concerned to waive the £8 Royal Mail handling fee altogether. If you wish to either collect your item or arrange a re-delivery we will only request payment of the VAT charge levied by Customs and Excise.

 

I have also contacted the Regional Operations Director’s Office, which is responsible for the staff and services we provide in the London postcode sectors. All the staff serving in this area will be briefed on the correct process to follow for Customs & Excise fees.

 

Again please accept my apologies for any inconvenience this matter has caused. I would like to assure you that we at Royal Mail are constantly striving to ensure that our customers receive the level of service they have every right to expect. I hope that the action above resolves your enquiry and concludes this matter. However if you are dissatisfied with my response you can ask to have your case reviewed by the Postal Review Panel. They can be contacted by writing to FREEPOST Postal Review Panel or by email [email protected] m .

 

Yours sincerely

Alex Murrie Senior Customer Service Advisor * FREEPOST High Profile Case Unit

 

If your depot refuses to give your parcel over after you have offered to pay the Customs fees only, take the name of the person who is holding your parcel, call the police so they can record the incident, prosecute the postal worker.

 

I am making a complaint about OFT - they have replied once, I have to write to another department, then I will call in the Parliamentary Ombudsman

[dragonkeeper]

if it walks like a duck

if it sounds like a duck

then it must be a duck

 

This is not a statement but an e-mail I recieved.

I have no proof what so ever that it is in deed an e-mail that I recieved that would convince anybody what so ever.

 

In your e-mail/statment you refer to a VAT charge.

 

I am sure ALEX MURRIE Senior Costomer Service Advisor would in deed know the difference between Value Added Tax and Excise Duty.

 

At one time we were able to bring products into to the UK when we re-entered the UK. This was classed as "excise duty free" and not "VAT free"

 

 

Cracked_chap

 

Please can you re-send you email to

A Murrie SCSA

High Profile Case Unit

to have his statment which he e-mailed you to be corrected before you further re-post the incorrect information that he gave you?.

 

Thank you

 

 

 

 

dk

[rickyd]

Jeez crackhead - I have read that 8 times already. Ricky D is rapidly becoming only marginally more annoying!

 

Yes, your letter is marvellous.

 

Ricky D:

 

1) By posting in here, do you financially or materially benefit in any way?

2) Are you in any way connected with postal organisations?

3) Are you involved in PR?

 

1 - No

2 - No

3 - No

[Cracked_Chap]

I have the full email with header - If you don't believe it then I suggest you contact Alex Murrie yourself to confirm.

 

Thank you for your email 23 April to Mandy Talbot regarding the Royal Mail handling fee. As you are aware I have been asked to look into your case and respond directly to you.

 

Firstly, please accept my apologies that it has been necessary for you to bring this matter to my attention. I fully appreciate how important it is for our customers to have confidence in our ability to provide a reliable service and it is always disappointing when a customer expresses dissatisfaction with any aspect of what we do.

 

I should explain that we are obliged to release any item of mail if you elect to pay the VAT charge so by way of apology I have advised the Delivery Office concerned to waive the £8 Royal Mail handling fee altogether. If you wish to either collect your item or arrange a re-delivery we will only request payment of the VAT charge levied by Customs and Excise.

 

I have also contacted the Regional Operations Director’s Office, which is responsible for the staff and services we provide in the London postcode sectors. All the staff serving in this area will be briefed on the correct process to follow for Customs & Excise fees.

 

Again please accept my apologies for any inconvenience this matter has caused. I would like to assure you that we at Royal Mail are constantly striving to ensure that our customers receive the level of service they have every right to expect. I hope that the action above resolves your enquiry and concludes this matter. However if you are dissatisfied with my response you can ask to have your case reviewed by the Postal Review Panel. They can be contacted by writing to FREEPOST Postal Review Panel or by email [email protected] m .

 

Yours sincerely

Alex Murrie Senior Customer Service Advisor * FREEPOST High Profile Case Unit

 

If your depot refuses to give your parcel over after you have offered to pay the Customs fees only, take the name of the person who is holding your parcel, call the police so they can record the incident, prosecute the postal worker.

 

I am making a complaint about OFT - they have replied once, I have to write to another department, then I will call in the Parliamentary Ombudsman

[dragonkeeper]

I did not dispute that you received an e-mail, the e-mail you received from A. Murrie. is however a statement from him to you.

 

In your e-mail/statment you refer to a VAT charge.

 

I am sure ALEX MURRIE Senior Costomer Service Advisor would in deed know the difference between Value Added Tax and Excise Duty.

 

At one time we were able to bring products into to the UK when we re-entered the UK. This was classed as "excise duty free" and not "VAT free"

 

It should of read he referred to a VAT charge

 

 

I do hope that this is not answered with your automated response.

 

I do however hope that you will get back in touch with A.Murrie and ask him to clarify the difference between VAT and Excise Duty.

 

I am looking forward to his comment about the difference via a future updated post from you.

 

This would then assist other poster's and readers of this thread.

 

 

thank you

 

 

 

dk

[rickyd]

Troll Rickyd knows full well that there is no choice when someone is sending a parcel from the US for instance.

 

We have two Royal Mail stooges on here - the truth is this:

 

You shouldn't call people trolls just because they don't agree with you and for the record I happen to think that the Royal Mail and Parcelforce are two of the country's worst run companies - I wouldn't work for either of them for any amount of money.

[dwesty]

Hope this helps:

 

Hi David

 

Thank you for your email regarding VAT and the Royal Mail/Parcelforce handling fee.

 

All postal items entering the United Kingdom may be examined by Customs and depending on the goods, their value and the country they are sent from, charges may be levied by HM Revenue and Customs.

 

In such cases Royal Mail pays customs charges on behalf of the recipient who is legally the importer of the goods. This releases the item from HM Revenue & Customs so that we can deliver it to the appropriate UK address. Royal Mail then recovers the charges, plus a handling fee from the recipient. This handling fee is to cover our direct costs and is not profit making.

 

However if a customer elects only to pay the VAT and not the handling fee up-front, then the relevant Delivery Office should release the item but take the name and address of the customer and inform them that RM will send them a bill for the handling charge. However please remember that items will not be released until the customs duty element is paid.

If you have received a card stating there are charges to pay on an item for yourself, please provide me with your address and postcode, and I will look into this for you.

 

Yours sincerely

Alex Murrie Senior Customer Service Advisor * FREEPOST High Profile Case Unit

[dwesty]

^ As you can see, no depot has the right to hold your mail to ransom because you dispute the dodgy fee- provided you elect to pay the VAT portion of the bill.

[cactuskid]

I sent a small claim against ParcelForce last month on the grounds that I am not liable to pay VAT according to the VAT act 1993 and they had no right to act as my tax agent and withold the package pending payment.

 

Here is a few sections from their reply to the claims.

 

1. The defendant (Parcelforce) is authorised to collet duty on its behalf by H.M Revenue & Customs under The Postal Packets (Customs and Excise) Regulations 1986 and under s105 the Postal Services Act 2000.

 

b. In return for collecting duty, Parcelforce is entitled to charge a handling feeof £8 or £13.50 per item cleared, under section 9 of the Successor Postal Services Company Overseas Parcelpost Scheme ("the scheme") which was a Scheme made originally under the Post Office Act 1969 and preserved by the Postal Services Act 2000 (commencement No.4 and Transitional and Savings Provisions) Order 2004

 

c. The United Kingdom is also a party to the Universal Postal Union (U.P.U) an international treaty to promote transmission of mail. Under article 18 of the U.P.U Parcel Manual it provides that Parcel administrations that are authorised to clear items through customs on behalf of customers, may charge customers a customs clearance fee based on the actual costs.

 

Dinner is ready so I will add more to this later.

 

Chris

[dwesty]

Basically you go to the depot (pretty annoying esp. if you have a disability) and pay the VAT, collect your parcel. RM/PF send you a bill for their shotgun clearance fee - you pay it or dispute it as you see fit.

 

In a subsequent email I challenged Mr Murray to support the assertion that the fee was 'non profit making' but he replied that he was unable to.

 

RM/PF should demonstrate that they make no profit whatsoever on their £8 - £13.50 charges. Customers should also be able to pay the VAT direct. Many would argue that the 'service' provided is to the poster or to the VAT man.

[cactuskid]

They seem to have convinced people that they have a legal right to hold on to the package prior to payment being received for duty etc, that is not entirely true as the law is not that simple. They have a legal right to pay the duty on behalf of the customer yes, but no legal OBLIGATION to do so which is different.

 

The duty has already been paid at the point where they present the invoice for collection so there is no lien on the package at the point where they refuse to hand it over. If ParcelForce did not pay the duty on your behalf then the HMRC would simply send the declaration direct to the customer as it should be done. HMRC make money out of this racket because they get VAT payments from people that are not obliged to pay VAT. ParcelForce of course make money from charging the clearance fee under the pretense that they are obliged to do it.

 

It is a big deception that I intend to clear up very soon. ParcelForce are trying to get the case thrown out before a hearing on the grounds that I did not provide the invoice with the claim. Evidence is not required at that stage so they are clutching at straws.

 

I know my way around the law very well but my nuts are small, so any moral support on this journey would be appreciated.

 

Chris

[dragonkeeper]

please keep us informed about your onging action.

 

 

 

dk

[cactuskid]

As soon a hearing date arrives I will make a new thread about it

 

Chris

[dwesty]

Yes - good luck indeed!

 

So their argument is that they are 'authorised' (not obliged) by HMRC to collect the VAT! Well if they do that without your permission their 'fee' becomes a 'fine' surely?

 

I doubt that they can charge you a fee when no contract between you & RM exists. It appears they are voluntarily putting themselves in a situation where they're demanding a set fee as 'damages' which is a contradiction because they are not obliged to pay your VAT and you have had no earlier opportunity to do so.

 

Go geddem...

[dwesty]

Keep it in here cactus

[cactuskid]

Yes - good luck indeed!

 

So their argument is that they are 'authorised' (not obliged) by HMRC to collect the VAT! Well if they do that without your permission their 'fee' becomes a 'fine' surely?

 

I doubt that they can charge you a fee when no contract between you & RM exists. It appears they are voluntarily putting themselves in a situation where they're demanding a set fee as 'damages' which is a contradiction because they are not obliged to pay your VAT and you have had no earlier opportunity to do so.

 

Go geddem...

 

If you call a spade a spade at the end of the day you find that they are just playing a game where the agent and principal bounce of each other to create a confusing system that is supported mainly by 'legal half truths'. Not the first time I have come across this method to defraud, the police use the same tactic when they seize vehicles and store them with a third party storage company.

 

ParcelForce are authorised to perform the duty of collecting duty but are not required to do so if they not wish to. When I presented HMRC about this [problem] they said, "well, all the parcel companies do it so it is legal". Hmm, not on my shift it aint lol!

 

ParcelForce claim to have paid the duty on your behalf (which I dont believe) so that means there is no duty to be paid techincally at the time they send the invoice. No duty, no lien, gimme my parcel! ParcelForce are not authorised to hold a package once the duty has been paid, so if they have paid to get it released from HMRC then there is no grounds to hold it. ParcelForce are only authorised to collect the charges and costs as a civil debt (s.104(3) Postal Services Act 2000). i.e NO CHARGE (lien), JUST FEES

 

Just like it says in that section, duty and charges are recoverable as a civil debt. That is the first point of confusion that is expolited for their gain. Only HMRC can hold a package prior to payment of duty, not ParcelForce.

 

Now let me get deep on this so the cracks start to be evident

 

Why do HMRC not simply hold on to the package until it is paid for then which is legal to do?

Simple......sort of. Let me explain

 

The tax man is [causing problems] the general public out of VAT that they are not actually liable to pay. S.3 of the Value Added Tax Act 1994 is clear to state, "A person is a taxable person for the purposes of this Act while he is, or is required to be, registered under this Act". So if you are not V.A.T registered then you dont pay VAT. It is a product suppliers responsibility to raise VAT on the passing of its products along the production line so that the end user price is inflated with a large VAT tag. The manufacturers in the production process get their VAT refunded but the final sale price remains inflated for you. That way they can get the VAT through the final retailer who has just sold to a non registered person so they get no VAT refund. Get it? The VAT process in manufacturing is virtual, everyone gets their money back except you! But you are not under an obligation to pay VAT? Well that is the beauty of the [problem], you actually do not pay any tax on final sale purchases, the shopkeeper pays it on your behalf. You have merely paid an inflated price that covers the shopkeepers final sale VAT obligation.

 

So how to get VAT from non registered people when importing goods, when there is no shopkeeper to charge the VAT on your behalf? Create a shopkeeper - ParcelForce

 

That is the foundation of my claim against ParcelForce and they dont like it.

 

It is the benefit of being autistic, I can see through walls sometimes lol

 

Chris

[cactuskid]

I forgot to mention that when a VAT registered person imports goods they are given a C79 certificate by HMRC that is proof of VAT being paid on the package. If the imported package is for re-sale then the registered person uses that certificate in his accounts to get the VAT refunded.

 

The funny part is that if a non registered person goes to the HMRC wanting a refund because they are not VAT registered and got charged VAT, guess what they are told....., "Sorry, we cant offer you VAT refund because you are not VAT registered".

 

The people that are liable to pay VAT get refunded whereas those that are not liable to pay VAT pay VAT. Hmmm

 

lolz my ass off~!

 

Chris

[baptiste]

I've just received a PF ransom note, I tried calling HMR, but they were having none of it, he laughed when I suggested that maybe I wasn't liable for VAT, and tried to cliam that I was lucky as they hadn't charged me VAT on the postage! I basically got a very pro PF monologue from the guy I talked to as well.

 

I called PF and was told that they cannot split the charges, the depot manager was put on the phone, and he also tried to belittle me, I must 'have been googling' and apparently it's not a criminal office for them to withhold mail. He'd had loads of people call up with the same complaint and the police had told him that it is not against the law.

 

I'm posting my, rather mundane, experience as, unlike the theory, this is the reality, and the response you're likely to get.

 

You wont get any help from Consumer Direct either, they're giving out all kinds of incorrect info on this, they're basically waiting for a test case, and haven't really got a clue at the moment.

 

I have paid for my parcel in full, but I'm not happy, especially after the crap way the depot manager answered me, so could someone summarise the options for me, and hopefully others?

 

Who can ! complain to, and what are the main points that I should include?

 

Also, instead of letting them make money from 0870 calls, use this number: 020 1134 0201, it's for tracking but if you wait, or key in rubbish, and you can get through to someone.

Edited August 2, 2010 by baptiste

[cactuskid]

2 days ago I got a letter from the court. Next month I have a hearing to attend because the judge rejected PF's bid to have the case thrown out

 

The law is available for everyone to read on the internet so there is no reason to ask anyone what the score is unless you are unable to read.

 

Break things down to their nuts and bolts.....

 

1. HMRC ARE allowed to hold parcels until the taxes are paid.

2. ParcelForce ARE NOT allowed to hold parcels until the taxes are paid.

3. ParcelForce ARE allowed to recover fees and taxes through civil means where they pay on the customers behalf BUT they are under no legal obligation to pay it in the first place or provide that service.

4. A person who is NOT VAT registered is NOT required to pay VAT

 

HMRC have a nice little thing going on with the parcel companies raking in all the VAT and duty from non VAT registred people. The parcel companies part of the deal is that they get a nice £13.50 bonus for being part of the [problem].

 

When I rang HMRC they told me that all parcel companies do it so it is ok and legal. Hmmm...

 

At the end of the day, this is happening because HMRC are not allowed to bill you for VAT directly because you are not VAT registered. ParcelForce are being used as a 'shopkeeper' to reap the tax but they are not a shopkeeper, they are carriers! A carrier has no obligation in law to charge tax on behalf of HMRC and definately no right to withold the goods when HMRC have already released the parcel to them. Yes it is confusing, that is why the [problem] has been going on for so long and not been contested properly.

 

BTW, the same legal argument applies to goods brought into the country personally. Of course that is not contested because everyone is scared of the raw power of the tax man. I have nothing to lose so will take this all the way (for a laugh)

 

Chris

Edited August 2, 2010 by cactuskid

[baptiste]

I wrote to postalreview about this, and they replied that as 'Your complaint is relating to a Parcelforce Worldwide item and, therefore falls outside ofthe scope of our scheme.'

 

Is this correct?

[cactuskid]

I wrote to postalreview about this, and they replied that as 'Your complaint is relating to a Parcelforce Worldwide item and, therefore falls outside ofthe scope of our scheme.'

 

Is this correct?

 

sorry i dont have a clue about those guys

[buzby]

Of course they are responsible for ALL RM elements;

 

http://www.royalmailgroup.com/portal/rmg/jump1?catId=23200532&mediaId=82000734&campaignid=postalreview_redirect

 

Look at the logos at the bottom.

 

That said - RM should be paid for their additional work in processing your importation, since C&E decided to give them the responsibility. Your complaint should be to your MP, to ensure Customs duties are handled by customs, not third party agencies.

[baptiste]

Of course they are responsible for ALL RM elements;

 

http://www.royalmailgroup.com/portal/rmg/jump1?catId=23200532&mediaId=82000734&campaignid=postalreview_redirect

 

Look at the logos at the bottom.

 

That said - RM should be paid for their additional work in processing your importation, since C&E decided to give them the responsibility. Your complaint should be to your MP, to ensure Customs duties are handled by customs, not third party agencies.

 

Thanks for pointing the logos out.

 

I almost agree with your other comment, however PF are making money out of this, but more importantly they are happy to be used as stooges in this [problem], and the correct process would be to deliver and then invoice for the charges.

 

And in fact as I write I have recieved an email from Parcelforce, asking for me to provide the parcel id so that they can call me and charge just the VAT, and then invoice for the fee!

[buzby]

As I noted earlier - they are the least worst (by having a sub-£10 fee). If by complaining it then forces a formal change to make a standard fee of (say) £18, then it is those who import subsequently who will really be made to pay - and I find that unacceptable. Their fee to invoice will cause their costs to you to rise, and they do pursue those that do not pay.

[baptiste]

They are only allowed to charge a reasonable cost, £8 has already been challenged and found to be excessive.