Parcelforce clearance fee's (C&E duty etc)

[rickyd]

 

So that's pretty much it; I got out of paying the Clearance Fee with almost no argument from them whatsoever. I would like to think that Parcelforce's immediate and quiet refusal to pursue the matter can be taken as evidence that they know they don't have a leg to stand on.

 

I think its far more likely that they simply didn't want the hassle of arguing with you, or facing the option of returning the item, rather than them "not having a leg to stand on".

 

I have to agree with Gezwee on this. Too many more of these cases will either force them out of the market or have them increase prices to the going rate. Glad you saved your £8 - well done.

[petervanlee]

I had two Boxes sent from the USA together that should have been sent to my address,,, No cards have were left at my house and no van has stopped outside as i am home 24 hours a day due to my mother being quite ill I am home all the time at the moment..... dispite this there website said last week you tried to deliver a parsel to me when they did not and i had to collect the first box Saturday morning leaving my mother on her own. the depot is a good 15 miles from my house a thirty mile round trip. and again today ( Box number 2) there site is saying you tried to deliver box number 2 at 9.50 this morning when you did not at any time try as yet again I am in all the time and do not leave this house... Please let me know when box number 2 will be delivered and perhaps tell me why cant there driver deliver boxes to my house ontime and at least be honest about the fact he has not even tried to deliver any boxes at any time. After all is that not what you should do deliver boxes. They charged me £8 for sorting out the first box and now want £8 for box number two... and I have to drive a total of 60 miles to collect them quite amazing seems i have no right to chalange this at all...

[Dick Emery]

Challenge it.

 

moneysupermarket.com community - Parcelforce Clearance Ransom Charge

[buzby]

Because there is duty to be paid, the van drivers are not permitted to deliver it until the fees have been paid - so there is no issue of you 'missing' a delivery. It would not have been attempted - if the website says this is is being disingenuous, or perhaps it isn;t capable of showing it is the fact fees have to be paid prevents delivery.

 

You can pay by plastic over the phone to the delivery office, and the van will deliver as normal. There is no requirement for a 30/60 mile round trip as they'll deliver to your door.

 

You do not say what the £8 per box was for. If the sender had not got the Customs Declaration correctly completed and described, then an admin fee is charged. It would appear no customs duty was levied as the amount per parcel was only £8, but they should at least tell you.

 

Whilst DE says challenge it - for Overseas deliveries, the fee is correct, especially if they require to give it special handling due to additional documentation, but it is worthwhile seeking clarification nevertheless.

[emtdickson]

Is this the place to speak about my ongoing saga with Royal Mail duty charges please?

[emtdickson]

As I am in, I might as well say something now. I am disabled. It is very difficult for me to get out at present. I have corresponded with those responsible for the DDA in this matter.

 

On or about March 25 2010 I received a card through the door requesting a fee of £12.28 for a parcel from USA saying the sender did not pay the postage. I have bought fabric for my patchwork from USA when it is unobtainable here, mostly on eBAY and as far as I know I had paid postage. I pay through Paypal and usually items not exceeding £18. It is cheaper to order in two lots as the postage from US is cheaper than the customs charge and PO fees.

 

So on this occasion I rang the number after being unable to access the website to pay. I asked who sent the parcel and from where and they refused to say. I was told they do not give out info until the charge is paid, not even if it is postage or duty. (they have since told me that if it is for a large amount it must be duty!). This was stressful to me and I told them I had a heart condition and he laughed at me.

 

I said I could not get out to pay it and could I pay the postman at the door. I was told the postmen/women were not allowed to collect cheques or money at the door.(Our postman does help me all the time but in a private capacity so I did not want to tell them that). Our post office is not wheelchair accessible. I wait outside in all weathers for a break in the queue to be served outside. I said I could not go out at that particular time because of my disability, to pay the fee in person. I was told to pay someone to do that.

 

This is against the spirit of the DDA. I also have a notice on the plain glass in my front door asking people to use their mobile to ring me as I cannot usually hear the bell and by the time I get to the door it is assumed I am out and they go away. I was told they are not allowed to do that either.

 

I spoke on the phone to the compaints dept and received the same answers in the same insulting way, so I emailed the Disability Discrimination Office and they agreed that I should be allowed to pay at the door, and get the service I require. I satisfy all the requirements of disability under the Act.

 

In the event I was able to get someone to pay and collect for me, but this is difficult as people are reluctant to take time out and park the car etc.. When the parcel did arrive I found that the sender had included the postal charges in the value of the goods, making it liable for duty. That person has refunded me the amount of duty, but not the fee charged.

 

What makes me cross is that they charge £8 fee, but they do not actually do anything for it, because someone has to go and pay and collect the parcel. I have corresponded with Royal Mail at [email protected] several times over this. The last one I received said, more or less 'yar sucks bee to you, we have asked your local PO to return the parcel to the sender. I wrote back saying I paid and received that parcel. Are you saying I have another which I have not been notified of and you are sending it baack anyway?

The answer I received today is a card through my door asking for £13.04, but still no indication as to the amount of fee charged by them, but at least the correct box was ticked. It should go through the letter box because I might not receive it, even though I have just paid.

 

Furthermore, I believe that the cards represent an invoice. If payment is required on an invoice surely the law requires that the payer should know what he is being charged for and why? £8 is a very high charge.

[buzby]

What you outline is perfectly correct. Unfortunately, your circumstances are not aligned with the way RM do business, and unfortunately you either have to use them of find another way of dealing with the issue. DDO are talking nonsense though. They cannot stipulate you should 'be allowed' to do anything. This is the Royal Mail, that organisation that makes up its own rules, has crown exemption, and deals with matters as current management sees fit.

 

I am not an apologist for them, but after serious raids against staff it was agreed they would not be asked to handle money, this means if there are fees to be paid for whatever reason, this is done at the public counter of the Delivery Office. There are no exceptions for 'special cases' as there is no mechanism to allow for this. Personnel safety is the reason cash collection ended, and it would be hard to argue otherwise.

 

The £8 fee is standard, and the lowest available. You don;t know 'what they do for it', but it equates to the special handling required, not limited to logging the inbound item, appropriated the amount of postage and or suty to be paid, collecting it, then disbursing the collected funds to IR&C, less of course their fee.

 

The cards are not an Invoice, they are an advisory that payment is required. If you were using UPS/DHL the fees range from £14-£30. There is no 'right' to receive items from abroad, the internet has made this possible but to benefit we have to be in a position to pay all the costs that such importation brings with it. I'm not unsympathetic, but I have long given up purchasing items from abroad because of the additional hassle, it is just not worth the high blood pressure!

[rickyd]

I can't quite work out if you're complaining about the "unfair charges" or lack of flexibility to accommodate your disability.

 

I'm sure you realise that they are two very different issues which both have merit, but which require different remedies.

 

Not having access to buildings is a DDA issue, paying for centralised services at your own door is not. Although I'm sympathetic to your condition, Parcelforce seem to have been trying to be helpful in suggesting someone collect the parcel on your behalf and its a little unfair to ask them to change their operational methods in this instance.

 

Quite apart from the risk assessment required to facilitate such changes, there are insurance aspects to cash handling and Union permissions to be obtained. Their operational model will be designed to cater for the majority at low cost, whilst other companies may offer more specialised and flexible services at increased cost.

 

There's plenty of choice out there.

[Cracked_Chap]

buzby & rickyd are both employees of Royal Mail, saying the charge is fair is totally ridiculous - the fact is that the charge is technically legal but cannot be enforced by holding your mail to ransom.

 

Insist that your mail is given to you after payment of the Duty only. State that you dispute the handling charge and that you will call the police to register the name of the employee that is holding your parcel in lien. If the police are called, get the incident number from them, you will then be able to take the employee to court, they were breaking criminal law.

 

That fact again is that Royal Mail will buckle before it goes to court as many of us have already discovered. RM will not allow this in court as it will set a precident that they will have to abide by.

 

Stick to your guns - don't pay the handling fee.

[rickyd]

Last time I checked my payslip I wasn't working for Parcelforce - in fact I never have!

 

I'm just curious to know why you think that they should carry out this work for free when DHL and others charge so much more?

 

Insulting others only devalues your worthless argument - get real!

[Cracked_Chap]

The fact is that the charge is technically legal but cannot be enforced by holding your mail to ransom.

 

Insist that your mail is given to you after payment of the Duty only. State that you dispute the handling charge and that you will call the police to register the name of the employee that is holding your parcel in lien. If the police are called, get the incident number from them, you will then be able to take the employee to court, they were breaking criminal law.

 

The fact again is that Royal Mail will buckle before it goes to court as many of us have already discovered. RM will not allow this in court as it will set a precedent that they will have to abide by.

 

Stick to your guns - don't pay the handling fee.

[buzby]

Goody - I've been accused of being employed by; BT, Orange, Vodafone, T-Mobile, Carphone Warehouse, and now Royal Mail.

 

People using this tack (perhaps as an insult?) invariably have nothing useful to add, having only their opinion to go on. Some of us have wide experience, and even have come up with the problems complained of first hand. It is with this experience that we gain our 'reputation' ratings. As someone who has taken RM to court, I can assure you they won;t 'buckle', and they'll charge YOU for their capped legal costs.

 

If you incur the costs, you pay the fee, If you don't like the fee, don't import. It's a no brainer, really.

[Cracked_Chap]

The fact is that the charge is technically legal but cannot be enforced by holding your mail to ransom.

 

Insist that your mail is given to you after payment of the Duty only. State that you dispute the handling charge and that you will call the police to register the name of the employee that is holding your parcel in lien. If the police are called, get the incident number from them, you will then be able to take the employee to court, they were breaking criminal law.

 

The fact again is that Royal Mail will buckle before it goes to court as many of us have already discovered. RM will not allow this in court as it will set a precedent that they will have to abide by.

 

Stick to your guns - don't pay the handling fee. This thread is dominated by trolls owned by Royal Mail:

 

Posted on the thread I started in 2007 (Moneysupermarket.com) - there are many other posters that have not paid the fee:

 

moneysupermarket.com | community | - Parcelforce Clearance Ransom Charge

Dear tandym,

 

Many thanks for your reply - much appreciated. I tried sending you a PM - but this forum does not seem to allow that!

 

In any case, there's been an interesting turn of events here. After I emailed Mandy, she said she could not help but she DID pass my details on to a senior customer service rep. He just replied with:

 

"...I should explain that we are obliged to release any item of mail if you elect to pay the VAT charge so by way of apology I have advised the Delivery Office concerned to waive the £8 Royal Mail handling fee altogether. If you wish to either collect your item or arrange a re-delivery we will only request payment of the VAT charge levied by Customs and Excise.

 

I have also contacted the Regional Operations Director’s Office, which is responsible for the staff and services we provide in the London postcode sectors. All the staff serving in this area will be briefed on the correct process to follow for Customs & Excise fees. "

 

Great! I was ready to go to court. I'm just very annoyed that Consumer Direct is STILL giving incorrect advice to customers - and when I called them today to give an update, they were sticking with the old story. They are STILL claiming that the charges CAN be bundled and that they are NOT required to release the parcel if you just choose to pay the VAT. And that is their specialised Royal Mail complaints department.

 

I just do not want other customer in the same situation to get wrong advice and to stop fighting.

 

Thanks to everyone here for their help!

 

 

THIS SITE IS 'OWNED' BY ROYAL MAIL TROLLS, DON'T BELIEVE THEM.

 

[buzby]

Sorry - a 'precedent'? I can assure you a case in anything other than the High Court will not create a precedent. Afraid it isn't 'a fact'. I faced up to them (and lost) due to their Act of Parliament taking precedence. Neither are they 'holding mail to ransom' - they supply a service and if you incur charges because HMRC require inbound mail to be assessed and paid for - then you are complaining to the wrong people. Try your MP after tomorrow.

 

As for the site being a home of RM trolls. I'm afraid you've lost the last shred of credibility.

[Cracked_Chap]

Sooo.... it seems all the trolling you two have done amounts to nothing. I now have the email in my posession from Alex Murrie (Senior Customer Service Advisor) Royal Mail, they have finally admitted that they should not be holdiong the parcels in lien, you two must be a couple of halfwits not to have understood the law concerning this, or you are a couple of Royal Mail stooges:

 

'Firstly, please accept my apologies that it has been necessary for you to bring this matter to my attention. I fully appreciate how important it is for our customers to have confidence in our ability to provide a reliable service and it is always disappointing when a customer expresses dissatisfaction with any aspect of what we do.

 

I should explain that we are obliged to release any item of mail if you elect to pay the VAT charge so by way of apology I have advised the Delivery Office concerned to waive the £8 Royal Mail handling fee altogether. If you wish to either collect your item or arrange a re-delivery we will only request payment of the VAT charge levied by Customs and Excise.

 

I have also contacted the Regional Operations Director’s Office, which is responsible for the staff and services we provide in the London postcode sectors. All the staff serving in this area will be briefed on the correct process to follow for Customs & Excise fees.

 

Again please accept my apologies for any inconvenience this matter has caused. I would like to assure you that we at Royal Mail are constantly striving to ensure that our customers receive the level of service they have every right to expect. I hope that the action above resolves your enquiry and concludes this matter. However if you are dissatisfied with my response you can ask to have your case reviewed by the Postal Review Panel.

[buzby]

So you paid the VAT then...? Excellent. RM can waive the fee if they want but nothing else. Or did you get that wrong as well?

 

Following your logic, we can't be 'trolls' either then because we 'got it so wrong'.

[Cracked_Chap]

My first post in 2007: The Parcelforce clearance fee is not illegal, the way they collect it is illegal according to section 104, 105, 83 and 84 of the Postal Services Act 2000:

 

It has always been about the handling fee, you two have been 'confused', not me.

 

Anyway - I'm glad you understand now, Royal Mail can't hold your parcel in lien for the handing fee.

[buzby]

Now we have that sorted - supposing people refused to pay their fee on principle (like those who object to a TV licence etc). Don;t you think they'll come up with an alternative 'plan' to prevent their fee being 'evaded'. Playing devils advocate, this would be easily done - like the phantom 'billing' companies used by Sky/Virgin/BT that acts as payment processors. Once the serious issues of tax evasion are dealt with, the rest will be easy for them to manipulate.

[emtdickson]

I have read with interest the posts since mine. I first contacted them to ask who had sent something to me for which I had to pay £12.28 postage cost because the sender had not paid the postage, as the card said. It also said that the Royal Mail included a ONE POUND handling fee for this. The person refused to give me the information. I was told that I could not have that information until I had paid for the parcel. It could have been anything from anybody. It just said the sender had not paid the postage. I could not pay online at that time. I was not expecting anything that would have a VAT charge and was concerned. I was refused any info. Had they said who or where I would have known. I could have told them that the sender had included the postage with the value of goods!!

 

I asked if I could give a cheque to the postman. I DO NOT CARRY CASH IN THE HOUSE BECAUSE I CANNOT GET TO THE BANK, so there was no question of my giving cash anyway. I see no danger in the postman having a cheque. If postmen are attacked it may be for the mail they are carrying. Who would want a cheque made out to post office counters? I am sorry to sound so rude, but I never said I wanted to pay with cash.

Another way of paying is to stick stamps on the card!

 

As it happened, that March parcel was not underpaid postage but a customs duty. Why could they not have said so? I still maintain that if you receive a card or letter demanding payment, then it is an INVOICE and should state clearly what the payment is for. They are so slapdash that they cannot even be bothered to tick the right box.

 

On the other point: it is a fact that the Disability Discrimination Act is supposed to help disabled people to live in the world as though they were able-bodied. This means that if we cannot go upstairs in any building - public or otherwise, arrangements should be made for us to get to another floor without breaking down in tears. They have helped me a few years ago when I could not access a building of a solicitor's firm who had put signs for access all over the place, then built a ramp which when you got to the top was not big enough to turn the chair around to get into the building. I became disabled because I contracted a virus. I could have died. I did not. I am now 69. I was 46 when I had it (and I do not have to remind anyone of the recent 'flu pandemic). Sometimes, if you do not die the life you have left can be very difficult.

 

I despair at the thought of those soldiers who have been so badly damaged in the Middle East realising that they will have to spend the rest of their lives trying to get parcels delivered for them because Royal Mail thinks it is above everyone else.

 

If because they are Crown Business they do not have to help the disabled live a normal life by allowing them to access their services without bothering other people, then perhaps Her Majesty should be asked to intervene.

Now I have to find out where the parcel is they have returned to sender, because I paid for the March one, and the only other card I have came on Wednesday, after they told me on Tuesday that they had returned another to sender!!

If indeed they have returned a parcel as the say in their email of today, then they did it out of spite only, because of my request to be allowed to have my mail delivered at my door. It could not be any other reason, because their sending the parcel back came well before I received a card for payment.

 

My early years were formed in London during the war.I learned about bombing and shelters from birth. It is sad that now we have to face the enemy within. I shudder to think that, without the courageous people in that war, Hitler may well have ruled the world, because he would have had the then British Empire eating out of his hands. What a shame that, now there is no war, and more elderly because we were not bombed out of existence, we are hammered in this way? Shame on those who do not care.

[emtdickson]

I received the parcel this afternoon, following my reply to an email from [email protected] telling me it had been returned to sender (in US) and I must ask them to fill in a form about it. This is not that over which I complained in March, but another one. This latter I was able to pay online, and as I had only received the card on Wednesday they had sent it back before notifying me it had arrived!

 

That is so obviously done out of spite. I looked up the tracking number of the goods and sent it by email to them and said they must track it. I also reminded them that the card says that they keep the parcel for three weeks. They had not even had it three days, and I said in my email that I have legal aid on my house insurance and would be contacting them for advice.

 

The parcel miraculously appeard about two hours later.

What a blessing it is to be able to communicat with you. It does help to keep cool.

[Neoconair]

Here's a copy of an email I sent to Royal Mail following an incident in Reading. Believe it or not, I managed to forget about this and only remembered while reading this forum that they did not reply. The email was resent today:

 

Dear Sir or Madam

 

For the Attention of a Senior Offical and the Legal Department

 

I am writing to complain about the heavy-handed and possibily unlawful behaviour of the staff at the Reading Delivery Office on Saturday 29 November 2008.

 

I had received a notice that a parcel was awating collection at the local delivery office, with a customs charge to pay totalling £16.88. As I had previously imported a parcel of the same value, I was aware that these charges consisted of £8.88 VAT and £8 Royal Mail/Parcelforce 'Clearance Fee'.

 

You will no doubt be aware of the controversial nature of your 'clearance fee'. Royal Mail rely on the Postal Service Act 2000 as legal justification for this charge, which is disputed by many critics. I have previously used the 'fee to pay' service online to settle the VAT on an earlier international parcel, while withholding the £8 clearance fee. This parcel was subsequently released to me by the delivery office without challange.

 

On this occasion, the Royal Mail card did not include a parcel reference number nor a web address for the 'fee to pay' online service. I was therefore required to settle the charges in person at the local office.

 

I handed my card to an official in the office and she immediately demanded payment of the outstanding amount. I asked to see the parcel of details of the charge, which she was relucant to do. She eventually however handed the parcel to me for inspection. Upon confirming the breakdown of the charges, I stated that I would pay the VAT, but not the clearance fee and she attempted, unsuccessfully, to snatch the parcel from my hands. She called for her manager to come to the window.

 

The manager appeared and demanded that I return to the parcel to him. I refused, asserting that the parcel was my property, and that Royal Mail had no authority to detain the parcel as a lien given that I had offered payment of the VAT. He stated that unless I paid the full amount shown (£16.88) he would call the Police to have me arrested for theft. I explained, several times, that I was prepared to pay the VAT and that Royal Mail should write to me requesting payment of their clearance fee, and outlining the legal grounds on which they believed payment was due. He refused to accept my offer of payment, and reiterated his threat to call the Police if I refused to pay the clearance fee.

 

While I was confident of my legal right to offer payment of the VAT, and refuse to immediately pay the clearance fee, I could not be sure that a Police Constable would understand the legal issues involved and not defer to a complaint by a Royal Mail manager accusing me of theft. I therefore wrote two separate cheques (one each for the VAT and the clearance fee) to confirm that my payment was made under protest and duress, and obtained written details of the manager's name.

 

Upon returning home, I immediately contacted Thames Valley Police to seek their advice. They advised that they would not have attended the delivery office to settle a civil dispute regarding postal charges (unless the manager misrepresented the situation), and that I was within my rights to offer 'part payment'. They were also unhappy that the theat of Police action was invoked in this situation.

 

In summary, a Royal Mail delivery office threatened me with arrest and subsequent detention for challenging your clearance fee. In doing so, he has possibly commited a criminal offence under the Postal Services Act 2000 by unlawfully detaining the delivery of a mail packet, and has acted unlawfully by denying me my right to challenge your charges.

 

Royal Mail has been unable to provide any evidence that the Postal Services Act 2000 confers a right of lien over a customer's property in respect of its clearance. That right exists only to the extent that the VAT remains unpaid on the parcel. While I do not expect Royal Mail delivery office staff to be familiar which such relatively arcane legal concepts, they are nevertheless applicable and effective and its staff should receive rudimentary training in this respect.

 

I therefore demand a repayment of the £8 'clearance fee' paid under protect and duress, along with an apology for, and an investigation into, the unlawful conduct of your staff in the delivery office. A copy of this letter has been sent to Postcomm, Postwitch, Thames Valley Police and my MP. I will not hesitate to take legal action if I receive an unsatisfactory reply.

 

Yours faithfully

[buzby]

Aside from the fact you are expecting RM to undertake customs clearance at no cost to you for items you imported, could you explain what you would be suing RM for, and under what Statute?

[Neoconair]

I am concerned that Royal Mail supporters/employees continue to obfuscate this issue by refusing to engage with the relevant points. Please reread my email.

 

I understand that the clearance fee is a substantial 'cash cow' for RM, and they will do and say anything to defend it.

[Neoconair]

"...undertake customs clearance at no cost to you for items you imported"

 

We are expected to pay the relevant taxes AND for the (often greater) cost of administering said taxes? Absurd.

[buzby]

Your argument is with HMR&C. It is THEY who abandoned the Royal Mail Centres, saying that if the mail has duty, RM can collect it (or not deliver it). Why do you think there are so few Customs employees in 2010?

 

I agree the cost of clearance should be something the Government absorbs as part of the revenue they obtain, but those days are long gone. RM is left to administer it, and apart from your guestimation that their charges are high - they remain the cheapest of ALL the courier companies, so this comes over as shooting yourself in the foot. By all means, pursue those that charge £20-40 if you feel you have a case, but complain about a firm that only charges under a tenner? It's perverse.