CCA, DCAs and the Unfair Commercial Practices Directive

[andrew1]

Sad isn't it?, but if they don't have an agreement or won't supply it they won't be getting very far if they decide to litigate against you. Under the Civil Procedures Rules if they litigate you can request as much information as you need from them prior to court which they intend to rely upon in court , an agreement document should sit up top of such a pile of documents they would rely on. If they don't have one - tough on them.

 

 

Sarah

[babybear39]

It is a sad fact that specific legislation brought in to protect the consumer is being ignored and not actioned by TS and the OFT. It's not just guidlines anymore, it's LAW.

 

The inaction being seen and experienced with regard to this makes a mockery of the legal system and UK law as a whole

 

Eeryone should still complain as eventually the weight of complaints will force TS and the OFT to act.

[MAGDA]

Yes, you are quite right BB, and I fully intend to keep pushing TS to do something. It is really quite worrying that TS are asking me to tell them which legislation states that the owner is the creditor for the purposes of the CCA. This is something they should already be aware of as it is their job to know this kind of thing. I think a lot of TS's unwillingness to act stems from the fact that these companies employ a number of people locally and TS are reluctant to act for this reason, which isn't very helpful to us when we need to complain. The Company in my case actually found it extremely amusing when I told them I was complaining to TS, probably because they know TS won't do anything. Still, as you say, the more we complain the more notice, hopefully, they will eventually take. Magda

[foolishgirl]

Magda, have you thought about informing your MP that the OFT (i.e. TS who are the enforcement arm of the OFT in respect of CPUTR) are not complying with the law, also the MP responsible for the TS's district. After all it's the MPs that decided this should be the law, it's up to them to ensure UK enforcement officers (ie. in this case TS) carry it out.

[babybear39]

Magda, have you thought about informing your MP that the OFT (i.e. TS who are the enforcement arm of the OFT in respect of CPUTR) are not complying with the law, also the MP responsible for the TS's district. After all it's the MPs that decided this should be the law, it's up to them to ensure UK enforcement officers (ie. in this case TS) carry it out.

 

Great idea foolishgirl, we should all do this...The poor MPs would have to actually do something for thier pay

[Hopeful1]

Quite agree with FG and BB, no matter how little success we have initially, we all must keep shouting.

 

This a link Paul put on one of my threads to contact councillors and MPs:

 

WriteToThem - Email or fax your Councillor, MP, MEP, MSP or Welsh, NI, London Assembly Member for free

[Fred Bassett]

Great idea foolishgirl, we should all do this...The poor MPs would have to actually do something for thier pay

 

More to the point, the poor MPs would have to actually do something for their expenses.

 

Fred

[MAGDA]

Thanks Foolish Girl, if I don't get anywhere with TS - I do intend to see this through to the end, then I will contact the MP concerned, so that's something to fall back on if all else fails! Many thanks, Magda

[ScarletPimpernel]

Points to note when writing to MPs:

 

- You have to go through your own constituency MP (find out who yours is at TheyWorkForYou.com: Are your MPs and Peers working for you in the UK's Parliament?). If you write to others, you will just get a polite reply asking you to contact your MP.

 

- Have a look at your MP's website; it will give you a feel for their areas of interest (apart from expenses), and they usually provide a guide to what they can and cannot deal with.

 

- The best way to get a meaningful response is to ask your MP to get the relevant Minister to provide an answer e.g. "Could you ask the Minister for Consumer Affairs to explain why Blankshire Trading Standards have failed to act upon complaints about Moron & Co., a debt collection agency, and what action does the government intend to take to improve enforcement of consumer protection legislation?"

 

- Always provide full contact details - your MP's office may want more information. These details also show that you live in the MP's constituency.

 

- Attach copies of any documents you refer to in your letter.

 

- You will normally get a holding reply thanking you for your letter and letting you know that the MP has written to the Minister and will contact you again when there is a response. This letter will probably come from the constituency office.

 

- Expect to wait a couple of months for the full reply. This usually takes the form of a copy of the Minister's response, and a covering letter signed by your MP.

 

- MPs won't generally deal with obvious templates; it's pointless flooding them with copies of the same letter.

 

- Ranting is unhelpful; keep letters concise and stick to the facts. If you are unfortunate enough to have a ZANU New Labour MP, avoid being too critical of the Cyclops and the Cabinet circus clowns; some MPs are very quick to indulge in dummy-spitting.

 

- All MPs conduct 'surgeries' in their constituencies, and you can go and see them face to snout. If you do this, it helps to take copy documentation with you (to leave with the MP), and an outline of the problem and what you would like done. You can also usually call into the constituency office and speak to one of the staff at any time in normal office hours.

 

- If you don't want to go through your MP, one alternative is to write to the appropriate Shadow Minister or Opposition Spokesman. In this case you can be as critical as you like of New Liebour's policies. Otherwise, you could contact a member of the House of Lords who has a particular interest in the area of concern.

[babybear39]

Thanks for that SP Will be composing a nice letter to my MP over the weekend...

 

We'll be on first name terms shortly

[sosumi]

Points to note when writing to MPs:

 

- You have to go through your own constituency MP (find out who yours is at TheyWorkForYou.com: Are your MPs and Peers working for you in the UK's Parliament?). If you write to others, you will just get a polite reply asking you to contact your MP.

 

- Have a look at your MP's website; it will give you a feel for their areas of interest (apart from expenses), and they usually provide a guide to what they can and cannot deal with.

 

- The best way to get a meaningful response is to ask your MP to get the relevant Minister to provide an answer e.g. "Could you ask the Minister for Consumer Affairs to explain why Blankshire Trading Standards have failed to act upon complaints about Moron & Co., a debt collection agency, and what action does the government intend to take to improve enforcement of consumer protection legislation?"

 

- Always provide full contact details - your MP's office may want more information. These details also show that you live in the MP's constituency.

 

- Attach copies of any documents you refer to in your letter.

 

- You will normally get a holding reply thanking you for your letter and letting you know that the MP has written to the Minister and will contact you again when there is a response. This letter will probably come from the constituency office.

 

- Expect to wait a couple of months for the full reply. This usually takes the form of a copy of the Minister's response, and a covering letter signed by your MP.

 

- MPs won't generally deal with obvious templates; it's pointless flooding them with copies of the same letter.

 

- Ranting is unhelpful; keep letters concise and stick to the facts. If you are unfortunate enough to have a ZANU New Labour MP, avoid being too critical of the Cyclops and the Cabinet circus clowns; some MPs are very quick to indulge in dummy-spitting.

 

- All MPs conduct 'surgeries' in their constituencies, and you can go and see them face to snout. If you do this, it helps to take copy documentation with you (to leave with the MP), and an outline of the problem and what you would like done. You can also usually call into the constituency office and speak to one of the staff at any time in normal office hours.

 

- If you don't want to go through your MP, one alternative is to write to the appropriate Shadow Minister or Opposition Spokesman. In this case you can be as critical as you like of New Liebour's policies. Otherwise, you could contact a member of the House of Lords who has a particular interest in the area of concern.

Another brilliant post SP

Also Freedom of Information Requests - WhatDoTheyKnow - file and explore Freedom of Information (FOI) requests

[ODC]

Slightly off topic. I have to say that my MP has been great. I have had to contact him regarding a matter and he is excellent and every couple of weeks sends me an update. He is a qualified barrister so an obvious choice to take on the psuedo solicitors of DCA Land

[cashins]

All MPs conduct 'surgeries' in their constituencies, and you can go and see them face to snout.

 

Nearly missed that one buried in the text!

 

David

[MAGDA]

I phoned the OFT today to get further clarification on the statement that as the owner of the debt (not the creditor) a DCA isn't obliged to provide a copy of the agreement. I have also emailed OFT, but thought it would be quicker to phone. They basically refused to help and said it is not within their remit. They advised me to ring the Financial Services Authority. The FSA were very pleasant, but confirmed that they do not get involved in matters relating to the CCA and this should be dealt with by OFT. They suggested calling OFT back and reiterating that I do not want them to get involved on a personal level, but simply to clarify a point. Again the person on the phone said it is not within their remit, but they can look at the query if I email it. I asked what difference this would make and he said it can then be "filtered down for the necessary response!" Guess I will just have to wait for a response to my email. Magda

[foolishgirl]

Magda, have you shown your TS the letter that was sent to Babybear re. DCAs (owners) & creditor relationship from her TS? - see Post #1 this thread, page 2.

 

Also the OFT state in their Guidance ' Unfair relationships - Enforcement action under Part 8 of the Enterprise Act 2002' dated may 2008

 

'Proceedings by the most appropriate body

5.19 We follow the principle that action under Part 8 should be taken by the most appropriate body. This means that normally where local or sectoral action is required, we would expect the relevant local or sectoral

enforcer (such as a TSS home authority) to be best placed to take the

action. We may however act ourselves where significant legal or national

issues are involved.

5.20 Where a number of enforcers may have scope for action we may direct which enforcer will take the action or may act ourselves. In the latter case we may decide in the event that further action is inappropriate and may close the file. Where there are established systems of statutory or non-statutory regulation in place that are likely to be effective we will generally refer complaints to the relevant regulator for action.

5.21 In view of the nature of the unfair relationships provisions, we anticipate exercising regulatory leadership by taking any initial actions under Part 8. Other enforcers may however take action where they are the most appropriate body to do so, and we will encourage them to have regard to this guidance.'

 

Can't be clearer than that can it?

Seems yet again LH doesn't know what RH is doing in the OFT/TS!

[MAGDA]

Hi FG, yes, I did draw their attention to the letter by quoting the relevant sections of it, but they have said this is guidance and not law, and that it does not specifically clarify whether for the purposes of a section 77-79 request, the owner is the creditor. The company in my case (Link) have stated that as the owner of the debt, they are not the creditor, and therefore have no actual obligation to respond to a CCA request. TS are saying that unless I can point them to legislation that actually states in black and white that the owner of the debt is deemed also to be the creditor, then there is little they can do, as guidance alone is not enough. I know that the letter states DCA's are creditors for the purpose of section 77 &78, but it does not clarify if the DCA's in this case are the owners or not. This is their reasoning anyway. Magda

[foolishgirl]

Stoopid TS!!

[MAGDA]

Yes, they certainly are, and OFT aren't much help either. The thing is, now that TS have been chasing up Link's non-compliance with my CCA request, (I have been putting a lot more pressure on TS last day or so) Link have now provided it, by recorded today. I have been waiting for the last nine months for this. It's strange though, because when Link are put on the spot, suddenly out of the blue they manage to produce the agreement. They did this with two accounts which are now subject to court claims. The agreement that arrived this morning looks extremely suspect. It is for a personal loan from FN, but it contains only very basic information such as name and address and the interest rate. The boxes which should contain details of employment, Income, etc, are all completely empty, which seems strange. Why would they give us a loan without obtaining this information first? I do wonder to be honest if all of these agreements are reconstructed when they are put on the spot to produce them. Surely they wouldn't stoop so low though

[foolishgirl]

Surely they wouldn't stoop so low though

 

Oh yes they would!!

 

Certainly sounds very iffy. If you get as far as court, suggest you insist on seeing original.

 

Looks as though TS/OFT are off the hook again for the time being...

[JonCris]

Simple answer it was written yesterday & if it's got 'your' signature beware of cut & paste They will quote the 1983 regs which allows them to omit certain identifying details to comply with your request but it doesn't allow them to litigate using a conjectured, reconstructed agreement. Write & tell them it's NOT a true copy & that your signature appears false, assuming that is the case.

[ScarletPimpernel]

Slightly off topic. I have to say that my MP has been great. I have had to contact him regarding a matter and he is excellent and every couple of weeks sends me an update. He is a qualified barrister so an obvious choice to take on the psuedo solicitors of DCA Land

 

My impression of NI MPs and MLAs is that most are good at constituency work - even Martin & Gerry, the Fun Lovin Criminals, tend to put party politics aside. It's certainly the case here that MP/MLA's offices are right at the centre of towns and villages, and generally operate as drop-in advice centres, which is not always the case on the mainland, and politicians are generally very approachable.

 

MPs are usually quite quick to pick up on anything that effects either their local area, or may produce some PR benefit for them. They may appear to dither before deciding which side they're on, but once you have their interest they can be useful. This campaign was something I was involved in last year. The steering group, known as 'Blue Team' suggested that people write to their MP and ask him/her to write to the appropriate ministers. It started slowly, but once the campaign started to gather public support, the politicians followed. Well, most of them did - we had a couple of furiously venomous emails from a crusty local councillor. The interesting thing was that 'Red Team' - our opposition - were generally very senior people in their fields (many in banking and finance), and not without influence. The politicians knew which side it would be in their best interest to support.

 

If, for example, an MP heard that a national newspaper or other media source was interested in the outcome of a constituent's question...

[MAGDA]

Hi FG and Jon Cris, well when we were first dealing with Link we were very naive at that time and sent quite a bit of correspondence with our signatures on, so I am sure it is a fairly simple process for them to scan them onto one of their 'agreements' or whatever it is that they do. I expect they have their own dept specialising in this. Although, judging by the one they sent today, they aren't very good at it!

[JonCris]

That one was probably done by hand only not yours:rolleyes:

[babybear39]

Magda, UCPD is part of the CPUTR 2008, which was implimented into UK legislation on 26th May 2008. This means it is LAW, NOT GUIDLINES. It supercedes anything that has gone before and TS and the OFT are legally obliged to act, whether they like it or not TS nationwide need training in this new legislation urgently 'cos they're wrongly advising consumers.

[MAGDA]

That one was probably done by hand only not yours:rolleyes:

 

No, one of those charming Link employees no doubt had a 'hand' in this.