Help!!! Ticket received on a Private Car Park

[Kitty11]

I parked my car on one of the University's car parks where I work, the car park in question is rough waste land and is not marked out in bays by white lines, the only available space that day was right at the top of the car park, on a small strip of tarmac, which I presume is used as a kind of pathway, onto the next car park, my car was parked partially on this pathway, although I was leaving plenty of space for anyone to pass by. I have parked in this space for many weeks, as have other drivers, without a warning or ticket, until this week, when the Universities car parks have started to be controlled privately by the Car Parking Partnership Ltd. There was a two week grace period prior to this week, when warnings were issued if you were not parked correctly, I did not receive any warning. On Tuesday this week I was issued with a ticket stating that I was parked so as to cause obstruction or inconvenience to others, the penalty £50 or £25 if paid within 14 days. The area I was parked had no notice to say keep clear, no parking, or any yellow lines and has I had had no warnings I presumed it safe to park there. The notice board on the car park only states that you have to have a valid parking permit (which I have) or a pay and display ticket. I am loathe to pay this fine as I already have paid for a parking permit, which allows unlimited time to park, could anyone please advise what my options are? I will be grateful of any comments.

[davida3544]

Use the template letters above and dont pay.

[Barnsley Boy]

You have not committed any offence and you’ve been ticketed by a private company whose tickets have no status unless a case is brought at the expense of the issuer in a civil court. Under no circumstances get involved in any so-called "appeals procedure".

The "charge" is alleged under contract law. Despite what they may call it, what you have is an "invoice" (a decidedly dodgy one at that) from a private parking company who allege you have breached their terms and conditions by failing to park in accordance with their rules. The ticket is not backed up by statute, unlike those issued by councils and police.

The “ticket” is virtually unenforceable and the truth is that the Parking Company will probably not even try to enforce it by legal action. Instead they will use debt collectors who will threaten references to credit agencies, personal visits by bailiffs and removal of property. These threats have no foundation. The reality is they would need to bring civil litigation in the county court against the driver and prove a breach of prominently displayed terms and conditions. They will go to the DVLA to identify the registered keeper of the vehicle but you have no responsibility to tell them who was driving (even if it was you) and enforcement can only take place against the driver. These cases are largely dealt with by threats and bluster rather than any real action on the basis that most people pay up to avoid hassle.

Don’t be a mug – stand firm don’t be bullied.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/parking-traffic-offences/65341-private-parking-companies-charges.html

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/parking-traffic-offences/119802-private-parking-tickets-template.html

[Kitty11]

Many thanks for your advice it is much appreciated and I will not be paying this fine.

[twinpig]

Hi Kitty11,

 

I am in the same situation, although I have only just received my ticket - so haven't had any letters through yet.

 

I'm just wondering what happened with your ticket. Is it still ongoing?

 

...& is the University where you work Keele? It sounds too familiar to be anywhere else!

[Al27]

I'd bet money on them having given up by now, if Kitty never contacted them.

[Kitty11]

Hi twinpig, yes I do indeed work at Keele. I received the ticket the 2nd day after the car par company kicked in, I think it was dated 26th February, I have still not paid it and do not intend doing so. The last letter I sent to them was on August 1st and I have not heard anything back from that. They talked about passing it to debt collection etc, so perhaps it is in the process of that at the moment. Do not let them frighten you into paying it. I can forward the copies of my letters that I sent to them if you wish, but you will have to send me your email address. The problem I have with the parking at Keele is that I am part time there and dont start till 10am so you can imagine my delight every morning trying to find a space. Only one week left of easy parking!!!! Hope this helps, let me know if I can help you with anything further..Regards...Kitty11

[angela-27]

lol i know horwood carpark it's a bloody nightmare!!!

[twinpig]

Thanks Kitty11, I might take you up on the offer of your letters if/when I hear anything! I think I'm going to take the route of asking for evidence of who was driving at the time - just for fun really! They couldn't help us out with CCTV footage when a friends car got bumped on the car park, so I'm guessing that they won't have any images of the driver who parked 'outside a marked bay' either ....whoever he or she may be!!??

 

Am I right in thinking that in order to pass a 'debt' on to a debt collection agency, they need to take things to court first? I have no intention of paying them anything, and intend to include details of any money used on stamps on my next Keele expenses claim form & see if they notice!

 

There was a similar incident in April up at the UHNS where a lady called 'Leah Hickman' made it all the way to court - only for it to be quickly ruled her favour as it was deemed rediculous to fine people who had already payed to park at a place of work. Unfortunately, I can't find the story on the Internet (12th April in the S-o-T 'Evening Sentinel'), but if anybody else knows how to find it, it makes an interesting read!

[Barnsley Boy]

Am I right in thinking that in order to pass a 'debt' on to a debt collection agency, they need to take things to court first?

 

Not quite,

 

Court judgement first, not paid = Bailiff [scary people with statutory powers]

 

Prior to court = debt collector - these guys have no power whatsoever, all they can do is ask you for money. You do not even have to give them the time of day.

[twinpig]

Thanks for that. I've got another 'query' - sorry. I just like to be prepared!

The sticky holder that they fixed to my windscreen said that it was an offence for anybody other than the driver to remove it. I've read on here that it's not anything of the kind, but I was wondering if anybody has an explaination as to why?

[lamma]

no legislation which says so. they are fraudulently representing themselves as an official council PCN which can use and does those words on the cover. PPCs lie now and again it seems.

[twinpig]

Thanks Lamma. I kept the plastic sticker as 'evidence' if it was ever required. I still haven't heard anything from them though (It's 35 days ago that my car was ticketed) ....I just wish they'd get on with it! Otherwise, I've done all this research for nothing!!!!

[lamma]

no need to waste the research - tell everyone you know about this [problem] and how to deal with it. meanwhile just ignore the PPC.

[twinpig]

(post edited - I think I went off on a tangent!)

Edited December 2, 2008 by twinpig

[twinpig]

in the local press today:

Students fined for parking on campus| Keele University | Stoke and Staffordshire news

[pin1onu]

in the local press today:

Students fined for parking on campus| Keele University | Stoke and Staffordshire news

When will these lazy reporters learn that only the courts have the power to fine. The PPC concerned have no power to penalise anyone for a breach of contract.

[twinpig]

Well, I had a letter through on Friday threatening all sorts of things. Basically, it seems that if they don't get their £50 from the Driver/Keeper/Hirer (???) then the world is going to end.

There's a reference which I typed into their website, which they said would show the 'Evidence' of whatever it is that I'm supposed to have done.

 

There were four lovely images of the good old Black Vauxhall Zafira ...which is a real shame, as I have only ever driven one Vauxhall ...& that was an M-Reg Cavalier, which went to the scrapyard in 2006!

 

I did some 'screen dumps' to use as my own 'Evidence' if it ever comes to court. 'That's not my car your honour'!!! Oh dear!

[sameagle]

You missed something out.

 

"That's not my car, your honour, and I have a piece of paper here, with all my lovely costs writ large upon it!"

 

Sam the Eagle

[twinpig]

More questions ...which I think I know the answer to, but there's not much info out there. I have a copy of the request that was sent from Compex Ltd (acting as an agent for the Car Parking Partnership / Liberty Services) to the DVLA for the reg. Keeper details of my car. There is a section on the DVLA request that says:

"Please provide a full explanation why you want the information and how it will be used"

 

..to which the Senior Processing Clerk from Compex has responded:

"Please see attached letter.

All vehicles on attached list have been issued with Civil Penalty Notices for being in breach of stated terms and conditions as signposted. Keeper details are sought to pursue payment of these penalty notices"

 

Q: Civil Penalty Notices ...I understood that they have to be issued by the authorities. Is that right? If so, then can I take issue with the DVLA releasing my details to a company who are mis-representing themselves?

[lamma]

take issue with them indeed. Council tickets issued by firms (outsourced) use V888/3. DVLA must not have read or understood the information supplied by the PPC. they should not have granted it in my view (but they did because they love their 2.50 ). Copy your letter to the ICO. see FAQs - PPCs - fighting back. The forces are aligned and http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/parking-traffic-offences/164651-problems-ppcs-face.html?highlight=problems+ppc+face

[twinpig]

So, here's a bit of an update (sorry Kitty11 for hijacking the thread!)

 

Despite them not yet identifying the driver, or having any evidence that any faulty parking occured, I received a letter which basically says that they don't need photographic evidence

 

"Although photos may provide additional evidence and are widely used in parking enforcement, it is not a necessary requirement to ensure that a notice is valid".

 

So, it seems, that they can just make up a 'Civil Parking Notice' (and refer to it a civil penalty notice) and expect vehicle owners to give them money.

 

The letter states that they are in receipt of my correspondence, which is strange, as the only correspondence that I have had with CPP is to let them know that the incident did not occur, and tell them not to contact me again. They do not say which correspondence they are referring to! It could be the correspondence with the DVLA, the CAB, The BPA the Traffic Penalty Tribuneral or with the security manager where I work!

 

They also (so many errors !) state that they've got clear white parking signs that are 1200 x 1200mm, which list the parking conditions. Now, I haven't had my tape measure out, but I assume that they're referring to the signs photographed in this thread:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/parking-traffic-offences/139812-civil-parking-notice-keele.html

 

...which are definitely rectangular ...and so cannot be the 1200x1200mm signs which they reference.

 

then they say "Additionally, the green signs adjacent to the ticket machines clearly contain the comment 'cars parked in incorrect areas or areas not designated as car parks ... may be issued with a parking notice.'"

 

I can neither confirm or deny that that's true, as I've never read the green signs. I've only ever seen the white ones. I'm not in the habbit of driving round car parks and reading every single sign to see if it has 'additional' criteria for parking! It's all irrelavent anyway, as they haven't addressed the driver yet, just me, as the RK.

"Your vehicle was parked causing an obstruction and was therefore a potential hazard. We advise you to forward the sum of £50 within 14 days from the date of this letter in order to conclude the matter"

 

'If payment is not received the case will progress further'.

 

As I see it, the matter has already been concluded! There is no 'case' to answer.

[Al27]

"Additionally, the green signs adjacent to the ticket machines clearly contain the comment 'cars parked in incorrect areas or areas not designated as car parks ... may be issued with a parking notice.'"

 

The signage doesn't mean the charge suddenly becomes legitimate. Incidently, their wording says that they will place a parking notice on a car. Doesn't say what a parking notice is, whether it involves money, whether it has to be paid, who has to pay it etc. etc.

 

It's funny when these muppets get themselves in a tangle when they try and construct a letter in an attempt to intimidate you into handing over cash.

[lamma]

ignore their rubbish. or send them a "your appeal for money has been denied" letter :)

[twinpig]

this was my emailed response:

 

"I am in receipt of your letter dated 13/2/09.

 

Be advised for a second time, as already stated on the 17/12/2008, that the incident did not occur. Do not contact me again."