Transport police

[Pen]

Hi can anyone offer some advice please.

In July my son was given a caution on a train for having his foot on a seat. he suffers from really bad arthritis and it was 6.60 in the morning. nothing had been heard since but last week he received a letter from the court stating he is being prosecuted for the offense.

 

what can he do about it if anything.

thanks

Pen

[ja-de]

Here's a link that I think will be of interest for you. student who put feet up on train seat

[lookinforinfo]

I think this is the result of the Court case mentioned in the previous post

BBC NEWS | England | Merseyside | Feet-on-seat teenager discharged

[ja-de]

Yes, thats the one, why they pick on non-trouble causing ppl is beyond me, fair enough ppl shouldn't put feet up on seats, but bl**dy *ell since when has it been an offence serious enough for court proceedings, we aren't going forward in time, we're going backwards. These "Jobs-worths" really p*ss me off, they make matters worse, they should be going after the real criminals, or is it that they can only handle the ppl who commit the serious crime of feet on seats.

Please don't forget to keep us posted on how he gets on.

[cerberusalert]

BR should have brought in the 'Armed Response Team' along with the 'Dog Section'.

 

Bloomin' students...they weren't like that in my day, hanging....it's too good for 'em:D

[darling1]

Its pathetic!

But the poor old bobbies (transport or otherwise) have to keep the solved crime figures up! After all, you can get a lot of snoozing commuters in one go - its even easier (and cheaper) than having to go out and do all those speeding motorists!

And all the fines they collect will be spent on upgrading our transport system - won't they?

[cerberusalert]

Pen..all joking aside now. Can you get a 'doctors letter' verifying that your son has athritis & that elevating his limbs alleviates the condition? Most doctors charge around £16 or so but in the end it is worth it as it goes a long way in mitigation.

[ukaviator]

I would go to court and defend that, on the grounds of his Arthritis. Were any other Passengers complaining that they could not sit down etc?.

[Pen]

hi Everyone. I was honestly shocked to be honest when he called me to say he had just been cautioned. He told me the officer had a camara on his head. I was straight on the phone to the police to complain as you can never get one by us if you needed them.

 

They told me it would be the transport police who would have given it not them, the officer was quite shocked to be honest.

 

Yes my son can get a letter from his doctor.

 

but he would not beable to afford a solicitor

 

He is a good kid and never any trouble. He had just got himself a job in chester for the summer holidays and was spending 3 hours a day travelling for a pittance. Had the officer said to him put his feet down he would have done so. but then if he was a 6ft thug the officer would not have said a word to him. It does make you wonder.

My problem is i will be away when he has to attend court and he will be useless defending himself. He will just except whatever the court throw at him. He's not streetwise at all.

 

i will check out those sites you have kindly supplied me with and keep you all informed.

Cheers

Pen

[cerberusalert]

He should be able to get legal aid I would think, try 'The Law Centre' in your area. Failing that, there will be a 'Duty Solicitor' in the court who he can ask for assistance (free), if he asks at reception they'll direct him.

 

The Law Centres Federation

[Pen]

cerbert, good idea. I forgot about that. I suppose I will have to do a witness statement for him!!!!.

I have just read the TPs statement. the conversation between him and my some word for word. my so was really polite according to TPs statement. apparently there was a staement made over then tannoy but because my son had his headphones on with his Ipod plus half a sleep he did not hear it. also the TP did not warn him or even asked him to take his feet off which my son done as soon as he approched him,he just cautioned him and that was it. If it had been me to be honest I would not have given him my name or address but thats me, I suppose I brought my kids up better lol

anyway we will definity get the medical letter and I will write up a WS for him to give to the duty solicitor. on reading the link in the first post it was the same train, Chester

thanks everyone.

[cerberusalert]

To be perfectly honest, this prosecution is at the bottom of the pile in the scheme of things:) OK, your son committed a summary offence by breaking a BR bye-law. IMHO the Magistrates have far more pressing matters to consider & if your son presents a GP's letter showing that he has a medical condition which necessitates him 'elevating' his legs, they will see it as just that:D

[Pen]

I hope so as I don't want him to have to explain away a caution for the next how many yrs.

thanks again

Pen

[Rooster-UK]

Good luck with this.

Please let us know the outcome.

[cerberusalert]

In the unlikely event that he doesn't get an 'Absolute Discharge', the most he can expect is a small fine.

 

Under the 'Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974' the conviction is considered spent after 5 years (two & a half if the offender is under 18) & doesn't have to be disclosed unless he applies for one of the following;

 

Accountants

Chiropractor

Dealer in securities

Dentists, dental hygienist or dental auxiliary

Director, controller, etc. of insurance company or building society

Firearms dealers

Judicial appointments

Justices' Chief Executives, Justices' Clerks and assistants

Nurses and midwives

Opticians

Osteopath

Pharmaceutical chemists

Police constables

Prison board of visitors

Prison officers

Probation officers

Teachers

Traffic wardens

Lawyers

Veterinary surgeons

Manager or trustees of unit trust

Medical practitioners.

 

Other excepted occupations include:

 

• Any office or employment where the question about spent convictions is asked for the purpose of safeguarding national security - for example, if you wish to be employed by the UK Atomic Energy Authority, the Civil Aviation Authority or as an officer of the Crown.

 

• Certain types of work in health and social services where the work involves access to people over 65, people suffering from serious illness or mental disorder, alcoholics or drug addicts, blind, deaf or dumb people, persons who are substantially and permanently handicapped by illness, injury or congenital deformity, or where the work is concerned with the provision of care, recreation or leisure facilities, schooling, social services, supervision or training, to people under 18.

 

• Applications for certain certificates or licences - for example, those for firearms, explosives or gaming - require that your spent convictions must be disclosed and allow the licensing authority to take them into account. Failure to disclose a spent conviction could lead to the refusal or loss of the certificate or licence and even to prosecution.

 

But the Offence is so trivial I don't think it'll even be considered:D

[Belaflat]

The trouble with an absolute discharge is that it is still a conviction. All it means is that technically they are guilty of the offence but the circumstances dictate that it warrants no penalty. It is not the same as case dismissed. (I am an ex cop so have come across this plenty of times) The quote from the case highlighted in an earlier post illustrates this.

 

Mrs Abrams gave Miss Jennings an absolute discharge, meaning she will not be punished but her criminal offence will be recorded. There were no costs awarded.

 

I would defend the case with a not guilty plea as a medical reason for a particular act can be an acceptable defence and the worst that can happen is he be found guilty and the circumstances taken into account.

 

If he accepts the charge and pleads guilty with mitigating circumstances then the best he can hope for is what he would receive in the first scenario.

 

That being said, it is so trivial that most people will laugh it off but remember, if he goes for employment somewhere and it is raised then some employers may see it as an antisocial act and may brand your son unfairly as a yob because of this.

 

Fight it, dont dismiss it lightly.

 

If you enter a not gulty plea then a hearing will be scheduled where the Inspector who questioned you will be called to give evidence.

If they realise you are defending on medical grounds they may drop the case before it even gets to court.

[cerberusalert]

I agree completely!

 

But as you know Magistrates vary in their opinions. in the worse case scenario the bench may conclude that an 'Offence' had been committed albeit there were mitigating circumstances.

 

Even if an 'Absolute Discharge' were to be delivered, at least that only lasts for 6 months under the Act.

[Pen]

Hi everyone, sorry I have not been on for a while. Belefat I think I have to agree with you and fight the case and ask him to plead not guilty. He has gotten his letter from his GP so hopefully he will be OK fingers crossed. I do not want him to have a caution on his record even if it is laughable, he would still have to declare it if he went for one of the above jobs and anyway I think It was totally unfair of the TP. no warning was given etc . I am just so sorry I will not be able to go to court with him as he is too honest for his own good at times.

Thanks for the help everyone. I will keep you all posted on the out come and advice him to involved the duty solicitor.

 

i'm I right in thinking if he pleads not guilty then another hearing date will be set or will the case still be heard there and then regardless of his plea.

 

pen

[cerberusalert]

Pen, 'phone a solicitor for an appointment on 'legal aid' Help with legal costs

 

If he is going to fight this (& I don't blame him), he really needs to have an advocate to speak on his behalf! A solicitor knows the nuonces of court procedure and is better equipped to deal with legal adversaries (particularly police witnesses)

[Belaflat]

Are you sure about this, if he has been fined, he has been convicted.

The only way to pay a fine and not have it recorded is by a fixed penalty.

 

Your son would not have to go into court if he accepted the charge but would have needed to do so if he wanted to defend.

 

Not wishing to put a damper on this but i think your son has been misled.

[Pen]

Hi everyone, just thought i would let you all know the outcome since you were all kind enough to help and advice us.

 

My son attended court but since he had to go on his own I advised him to go early and speak to the duty solicitor, which he did. He also had a letter from the doctor and was pleading not guilty.

The duty Sol did not think he needed representing but agreed to do it, whilst he was waiting to go into the court room a further 10 cases turned up all with the same charge also there was a lot of press officers around waiting for the outcome. The case was heard in a closed hearing, my son did not have to go into the court the solicitor negotiated a £30 fine and a reprimand for all of the cases which me son and the majority of others excepted One person however refused and his case has been adjourned.

I can't remember how a reprimand works i think its held on your record for a year if you get another one it then becomes a caution??? not sure but he will not have to declare it as a conviction which was his main concern and he won't have it on his records for 5 yrs. it was more economical to except the £30 fine the have to loss another days pay at a hearing.

 

Thanks everyone for all your help.

[Pen]

Hi everyone.

I need a bit more help with this.

 

My son attended the court on the 23rd OCt and an out of court settlement was reached whereby my son pays £30 to Merseyrail and a reprimand. OK we sent a cheque in the post for the £30 and thought that was the end of the matter.

 

The other day he received a letter from Merseyrail saying he did not pay the out of court settlement of £50.00 nor did he turn up on the 29th Oct for a reprimand.

 

The have know set a new date with the court for the 15th January for the case to be reheard.

 

My son has received no letter from the court as regards this hearing.

 

I can only assume they did not get the £30 cheque due to the postal strike at the time. but he say there was no way he would agree to attend their office for a reprimand as he would have to take time of work which he would be unable to do.

 

I am know in the process of sending them a replacement cheque for the 30.00. What else can we do. Dose he have to attend court again without notification from the courts.

 

any help would be appreciated please.

 

Thanks Pen

[The GodMother]

Dopes your son have any evidence that he turned up in court like a parking recipt or coffee recipt?

 

Also did he check in to court? as they would be able to say that he turned up, also the fact that he spoke to the duty solicitor is good as the duty solicitor shold have made notes for files and that would have/should have included the case number and defendant name including the claimts details.

 

I would advise you contact the courts regarding this as there should be some notes on this matter. Even if it is in court notes which say defendants attended.

 

Regarding the cheque. Has it been cashed? if so there is the evidence that it was paid and it was paid at the court agreed amount. If not i would advise you cancel the cheque.

 

I would advise you also contact the court regarding the amount your son was due to pay as there seems to be a discrepency over the amount. There will be court notes regarding this and what it is best to do is ask the courts to send you documentary evidence of what was said in court regarding the fine and repramand. You may need the case number for this or just the dates and details if the case number is not available.

[Pen]

Hi God mother, don't know whatsbhappening here looks like Cags not working to great.

 

anyway good idea, yes he did attend court hence the duty sol so court should have all the details, I will contact them on Monday when they open.

 

Thanks again

Pen

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dopes your son have any evidence that he turned up in court like a parking recipt or coffee recipt?

 

Also did he check in to court? as they would be able to say that he turned up, also the fact that he spoke to the duty solicitor is good as the duty solicitor shold have made notes for files and that would have/should have included the case number and defendant name including the claimts details.

 

I would advise you contact the courts regarding this as there should be some notes on this matter. Even if it is in court notes which say defendants attended.

 

Regarding the cheque. Has it been cashed? if so there is the evidence that it was paid and it was paid at the court agreed amount. If not i would advise you cancel the cheque.

 

I would advise you also contact the court regarding the amount your son was due to pay as there seems to be a discrepency over the amount. There will be court notes regarding this and what it is best to do is ask the courts to send you documentary evidence of what was said in court regarding the fine and repramand. You may need the case number for this or just the dates and details if the case number is not available.

[MilkTrayMan]

My thoughts are with the poor unfortunate passenger who would have to sit on a seat that had had someone else's feet on it.

God knows what a person has trodden on beforehand?!...

 

Zero tolerance is what is needed with the youth of today!

A total disrespect + lack of concern for other people is endemic in modern society.

I believe that the fault firmly lies on the shoulders of the parents.

It is all too easy to blame teachers or the government.

 

In a case like this, it is simply BAD MANNERS.

The person involved deserves having the full weight of the law thrown against him, to serve as an deterrent to others...

 

If not, what would it be the NEXT time??

Grafitti??...Vandalism??...Fare Dodging??...or EVEN WORSE??

Perhaps the shock of a conviction would nip his anti-social activity in the bud, before it escalates further?!

It could actually be beneficial to him in the long term!!...