Josa v Natwest ~ 6 years with Contractual Interest

[Josamolly]

Hi guys

 

right,this is the start of my quest to take on NW and claim contractual/ compounded interest. Having settled with the Halifax and about to do the same with A +L CC, i thought i'd go one step further and see how i get on with the NW, and try the dreaded comp. interest.

 

Having been a member since October, and knowing the processes, i am at the stage of having sent my LBA on the 2nd of Dec. Today i recieve a reply thanking me for my patience, and asking for more time to investigate.

 

Now, a dilemma. I have spent today sorting out my next letter, and compiling a new SOC to reflect the fact that i have now decided to claim the C Interest, i'm unsure whether to wait a few days to see what happens.

 

So, do i decide to see if i am offered my full claim of £xxxx, or do i just send the letter and push on for the larger amount of up to £xk, if i'm lucky.... I have prepared 3 different spreadsheets for 8%, 16.9% and 29.7%...

 

I have read what feels like every single thread ever to appear in this site!!! Thanks to Lively, Bong and Glenn Uk, oh and Hage, for giving me, i hope, all the knowledge that i need..

 

So guys, i will DEFINITELY need a little help here.. I have 4 more complicated claims to do after this!!

 

thanks for your help so far...

[Josamolly]

spreadsheets, which one??????

 

I have filled in one from Vamps site and another kindly nicked from bill-k (sorry Bill)..lol..Upload2.net Free File Hosting, Free Image Hosting

 

Different totals now on both.. need a little help i think guys on which is the correct one to use.. or does it not matter!! Like Cobbets are going to sit down and work it all oyut anyway....

[Josamolly]

Right guys... New LBA to besent on Monday to the Edinburgh address... wish i could claim to be the author, but i nicked bits from another post..

 

Pick aways please.. Oh, and the last paragraph is a tactic i used against A+L and it seemed to work..

 

 

 

I am writing further to my letter of 2nd December 2006, which remains unanswered at this date.

 

In the time that has elapsed, I have reconsidered my position in relation to the extent of my claim for unlawful charges, and I would ask you to note that I am adjusting my claim to include compound interest at Nat West plc’s excess overdraft fee rate of 29.5%. I am applying this rate of interest to the monies that Nat West plc has unlawfully deducted from my account over the years, on the principles of implied mutuality and reciprocity, and unjust enrichment.

 

The revised total of the charges, and interest debited as a result of the charges, stands at £xxxx.00 at today’s date, on which I have calculated interest due (to date) of £xxxx, bringing my total claim to £xxxx. I have enclosed an updated schedule of the figures for your information.

 

I wish to draw your attention to the fact that I have previously asked you to demonstrate that the bank’s charges are lawful, by providing evidence of the costs to which the bank has been put as a result of my account breaches. I have also previously requested details of any manual intervention on my account. Neither has been forthcoming.

 

Consequently I am of the view that Nat West plc is unable to demonstrate that its charges are lawful or that there has been manual intervention in relation to the breaches that have occurred and the charges that have resulted.

 

It is my considered view that Nat West plc, as a multinational corporation of very high standing and repute in the business and banking world, with the benefits of accounting expertise, in-house lawyers and/or access to top legal experts, owes a duty of care to its customers, in relation to ensuring that it is trading lawfully; and has therefore always had the resources to know that its charges were and are unreasonable, punitive in nature and therefore unlawful.

 

The level of the charges can be seen to be unrelated to the costs of the services provided; to exceed actual individual instances of loss to the bank, and to unjustly enrich the bank.

 

Based on the above, I believe that if Nat West plc is unwilling to settle my claim in full out of court, I will have no alternative but to attempt to persuade a court that by electing not to reveal its costs and the profit element of the charges, Nat West plc hasalways concealed the fact that its charges are unjustifiable and unlawful.

 

Further, I will aver that I mistook the charges to be lawful when I paid them, because prior to becoming aware of the OFT’s report this year I had trusted Nat West plc to operate lawfully.

 

Please note that I require unconditional repayment in full of £xxxx within the next 10 days in order to conclude this matter, failing which I will be proceeding with a court claim without further notice to you. In view of the costs involved for both parties I hope that Nat West plc will decide to settle my claim before that stage becomes necessary.

 

I have enclosed a copy of the county court N1 form that will be served at Luton County Court on the 15th January 2007 for your perusal. Please pass this to your legal representatives should you feel it necessary.

 

 

 

Yours Sincerely

 

Jos

[maxine989]

Hi Jos

 

I like the bit about enclosing a copy of your N1, hopefully that will show them that you mean it...

 

The letter looks good. Your claim is now very large, with the added contractual interest of 29.5. Will it cost you more to file at the court now that it is over the 5 grand small claims limit??

 

I am more or less the same stage as you are with NatWest Bank, although I was worried about claiming over 5 grand as I don't feel confident about the procedure at court and so have just added the 16.9% and am now at the N1 stage. I filed two N1's on the 4th... one for each of my NatWest accounts. 1 claim for just over 4k and the other 2.3k However I have gone for the 29.8% with TSB bank and 20.9% for NatWest card. This week I have filed 4 N1's... it's cost me loads, but I hope they will all be successful.

 

I can't believe how expensive NatWest charges are... £38, then another 20 referal fee at the end of the month on top... It has caused a large amount of snowballing charges and a lot of stress and worry...

 

You nail em'. Go for it...!!

[Josamolly]

Thanks Maxine... I think Bong got away with only filing her actual charges at court and left the interest bit out so he /she only had to pay the smaller amount.

 

My thoughts are that i will only get one go at this and i want to see how far i can push them. Once this is done i am the starting on them again pre 2000.. maybe even as far back as 1991, who knows..

 

Sounds like you are having as much fun as i am!!!! Good luck and let me know how you get on..

 

Jos

[saints1]

Hi

 

I am currently working on my boyfriend's claim against Natwest. I thought I would charge them their standard overdraft interest on the charges of 15.84%, however, I have received a letter back from them saying that their client will deny that we are entitled to claim for interest above the Court interest rate of 8%.

 

Has anyone been lucky in claiming back interest at a higher rate than 8%?

 

Thx

[Josamolly]

I'm not sure but there are a rew of us having a go..

 

The banks would deny it wouldn't they.. just like they denied that their charges were unfair..

 

quite happy to get 8% but i'm also happy to let a judge decide

[Josamolly]

Right, letter sent.. lets rock.

 

To be honest, i'm kacking it now... lol...

[maxine989]

I am sure you will be ok... some folks have got the contractual back, and if your went to court it would be the 1st, so i assume they will cave in at the final stage as the banks always do. It's natural to worry though... I have been too

 

On one of the other posts you mentioned that you havd got tow different totals between bills spready and vamps spready... That happened to me too... it confused me, but it is because Bills spready works to an extra deicmal place... eg, 16.900 instead of just 16.9, I assume it make the figures a little more accurate.

 

And, you are right... it's not as if they are going to work it out anyway.

 

Well, I wish you luck... keep us all posted... 14 days to go... until you file the N1 I assume.

 

Maxine:-)

[RobberBank]

I have, on behalf of my partner 'littleangel', been working on the contractual interest option. Bill-k's spreadsheet is spot on and i believe the other has been updated too.

 

Our claim for £3875 in charges and £7800 in interest was posted to NatWest yesterday.

 

Will keep things posted on:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/natwest-bank/55716-little-angel-natwest.html

[Josamolly]

thanks Maxine, the letter went today so they have until the 15th.. then i'm of to court again to file my N1..

 

Robber, i have been following your thread and am about 10 days behind you.. Same here, xk for charges and xk for Interest.. will clear ALL my debt, except the mortgage, if it comes off...

 

Keep watching guys cos i'm gonna need help at some stage..

[natwesttookmymoney]

Hi, Saints

 

" Has anyone been lucky in claiming back interest at a higher rate than 8%?"

 

It's not a question of luck, it's about preparation!

 

Yes, several people have received contractual interest on their claims. Have a look at the success threads and also at 'why is no-one claiming contractual interest'.

 

I'm claiming the authorised rate (17.95%) PLUS 8%. The interest rate they have charged me is my demonstrable loss: the 8% is recompense. Some are going the whole hog and chasing 29.5% or whatever, on the basis of 'mutuality and reciprocity'. They won't be claiming the statutory interest on top - unless, of course, they're completely barking mad.

 

Anyway, ahve a look at the arguments.

 

Best wishes

 

Westy

[natwesttookmymoney]

Oh, and BTw - I've also had a letter from Cobbetts advising me that I can't claim the 8% and contractual rate in addition. I've referred them back to my PoCs, which put it the other way round and make it clear it's interest charged by them on the charges.

 

I didn't tell them it's for the Court to decide, not them. But that is the case.

 

W

[Josamolly]

Right guys.. I would appreciate your opinion on my PoC's listed below. I'm sure they can be improved, so fire away with suggestions...

• The claimant has a bank account ******** (Dunstable branch sort code **-**-**) with the defendant, governed by the defendant’s Personal Banking Terms and Conditions (“the contract”).
  2. The claimant admits to breaches of the terms of the contract that require the claimant to stay within any agreed overdraft limit.
  3. The breaches have led to the defendant debiting the account with numerous default charges, and interest on the default charges, between 12/12/2000 and 13/10/2006. A list of the charges and interest on the charges is annexed to the Particulars of Claim at pages 1 & 2.
  4. The defendant has declined to answer the claimant’s written requests for information about any manual intervention necessitated by, and/or any administrative costs incurred as a result of, the said breaches. The claimant avers that the defendant’s default charges are not intended to represent any alleged actual loss, but instead unjustly enrich the defendant, which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit.
  6. The claimant will rely on the statement of the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) concerning default charges in credit card contracts, published on 5/4/2006, to demonstrate that:
  a.The OFT’s recommendations regarding standard default terms in credit card contracts have wider implications, as regards bank current account agreements.
  b. In a consumer contract, where the parties are not of equal bargaining power, any estimate that included costs which could not legitimately be claimed as damages from an individual consumer in a case brought at common law, and which made a material difference to the overall charge, is likely to constitute a penalty at law.
  c. The interest ordinarily charged on an overdrawn balance of account would of itself be deemed sufficient compensation to the defendant in a claim for damages arising from account breaches of the said nature.
  7. Accordingly the defendant’s default charges are:
  a. A penalty and therefore unenforceable as they are an unreasonable pre-estimate of the probable loss to the defendant and therefore contrary to common law - Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co Ltd v New Garage and Motor Co Ltd [1915] AC 79.
  b. Invalid under s.4 Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977.
  c. In the event that the court finds that the charges are not a penalty they are unreasonable within the meaning of s.15 Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982.
  8. The claimant is seeking the return of charges totalling £xxxx

9. The claimant claims compound interest on the amounts claimed - using the rate and method specified in the said contract, and applied by the defendant to monies it is owed. A schedule of the interest calculated is annexed to the Particulars of Claim at pages 1 & 2.

 

The claimant’s ground for seeking restitution of the compounded contractual rate of interest is that the defendant would be unjustly enriched if the claimant's entitlement was limited to the statutory rate of interest in that the defendant has had use of the sums and would have used these sums to re-lend at commercial compounded rates.

 

10. Alternatively, if the court decides that the claimant is not entitled to the contractual rate of interest, then the claimant claims interest under s.69 County Courts Act 1984. A schedule of the interest calculated is annexed to the Particulars of Claim at pages 3 & 4.

 

11. Accordingly, the claimant claims:

a. The return of £xxxx taken by the defendant in charges 12/12/2000 and 13/10/2006.

 

b. Court fees

 

c. Compound interest at the contractual rate of 29.5% from 12/12/2000 to 31/10/06 of £xxxx,

 

d. In the alternative to c, Compound interest at the contractual rate of 16.99% from 12/12/2000 to 31/10/2006 of £xxxx

 

d. In the alternative to c and d, interest under s.69 County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% a year, from 12/12/2000 to 31/10/2006 of £xxx and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgement or earlier payment at a daily rate of 61p.

 

I will also add other bits tomorrow like statements etc... I want to build a rock solid case and turn it into a decent link at some stage.

 

cheers.

[RobberBank]

I'm no legal expert but i'd have to say it looks pretty darned good, and if you're successful i'll be seeking your help as i think i'm a couple of weeks behind you in the process on the contractual interest front.

 

Best of luck with it.........

[maxine989]

Looking good Jos... and with the extra wording from karnevil for section 10... it should do the trick. What date are you due to file your claim?

[bobandsuzzi]

Thanks Maxine... I think Bong got away with only filing her actual charges at court and left the interest bit out so he /she only had to pay the smaller amount.

 

My thoughts are that i will only get one go at this and i want to see how far i can push them. Once this is done i am the starting on them again pre 2000.. maybe even as far back as 1991, who knows..

 

Sounds like you are having as much fun as i am!!!! Good luck and let me know how you get on..

 

Jos

hi, just picked up your thread,

i have filed my claim as unspecified, as the 29.5% took me well over 5K

my claim is for 4K, and i have left it to the discretion of the court to award contractural 0r the 8%--defence due 29th jan, so a few of us keeping cobblers busy at the moment--they must get really p----d f sending out the same defence letter to so many peopl

dont know how to post a link, but checkout my threads "bobandsuzzi"

Bob

[Josamolly]

Thanks Karn for your input. I will add that extra paragraph or 2 to my PoC. Your a star.

 

Hi maxine... i was going to file on Monday but have decided to wait a week. Only to give me more time to have my court stuff read by those more experienced than me.

 

I want to be watertight with my court bundle so Cobbets can't wriggle out of anything. I decided the extra 7 days is time well spent.

 

Hi Boband suzzi... after a lot of thought i decided to go with the 29.5% contractual. On the premise that i only get one chance at this, and if i'm careful enough in my preparation i may get lucky. Besides, i have 4 kids and my responsibilities to them outweigh anything esle to be honest...

[Josamolly]

Right, finally got my PoC sorted. I just need to know about the red bits!! Not sure how to work it out,...

 

1. The Claimant has a bank account, number ******** (“the Account”), maintained at the Defendant’s Dunstable Branch (sort code )

 

2. The Account is governed by the Defendant’s Personal Banking Terms and Conditions (“the contract”)

 

3. During the period in which the Account has been operating the Defendant has debited numerous charges to the Account in respect of purported breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant and also charged overdraft interest on the charges once applied.

 

4. The Claimant understands that the Defendant contends that the charges were debited in accordance with the terms of the contract between itself and the Claimant.

 

5. A schedule of the charges is attached to these particulars of claim (Appendix 1).

 

6. The Claimant will rely on the Competition Commission’s report entitled “Northern Irish Personal Banking,” published on 20th October, 2006, as evidence that the Defendant is aware that the income derived from its default charges is calculated to generate material profits and is not merely a means of recouping losses incurred in relation to Account defaults. The defendant is fully aware of this report as Ulster Bank is a subsidiary to RBS (defendant).

 

7. The Claimant will further rely on the Office of Fair Trading’s (“the OFT”) statement of 5th April 2006 concerning default charges in credit card contracts, as the OFT’s recommendations regarding standard default terms in credit card contracts have wider implications, as regards bank current Account agreements.

 

8. The Claimant thus contends that:

a) The charges debited to the Account:

i) are punitive in nature;

ii) are not a genuine pre-estimate of cost incurred by the Defendant;

iii) exceed any alleged actual loss to the Defendant in respect of any breaches of contract

on the part of the Claimant;

iv) are not intended to represent or relate to any alleged actual loss, but instead unduly enrich the Defendant which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit.

 

b) Further to 8.a), the charges debited to the Account are penalties rather than liquidated damages. A charge is held to be a penalty if the sum stipulated for is extravagant and unconscionable in amount in comparison to the greatest loss that could conceivably be proved to have followed from the breach. A penalty clause is void in its entirety and unenforceable.

 

c) The contractual provision that permits the Defendant to levy such charges is unenforceable by virtue of the Unfair Contract Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999), the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and the common law.

 

d) In the alternative to 8.a), b) and c), if the Court finds that the charges are not a penalty, then the Claimant contends that they are unreasonable within the meaning of s.15 Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982

 

 

9. Contractual Interest

a) The Claimant claims compound interest on the amounts claimed under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant, using the rate and method specified in the said contract, and as is applied by the Defendant to monies it is owed.

 

b) The Claimant’s grounds for seeking restitution of the compounded contractual rate of interest is that the Defendant would be unjustly enriched if the Claimant's entitlement was limited to the statutory rate of interest in that the Defendant has had use of the sums and would have used these sums to re-lend at commercial compounded rates.

 

c) The Claimant contends that the taking of unlawful penalties from the Claimant’s Account is unauthorised borrowing by the Defendant. Therefore, under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant, in the first instance the Claimant has calculated compound interest originally charged by the defendant, being 29.50%.

 

d) In the alternative to 9.c), should the taking of unlawful penalties from the Claimant’s Account not be deemed to be unauthorised borrowing by the Defendant, then, under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant, the Claimant has calculated compound interest at the Defendant’s authorised borrowing rate, being 16.99%.

 

e) In the alternative to 9.c) and d), if the Court decides that the Claimant is not entitled to the contractual rate of interest under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant, then the Claimant has calculated interest under section 69 County Courts Act (1984) at the rate of 8% a year

 

f) Details of interest calculated & rates used are attached to these Particulars of Claim (Appendix 1) as follows:

Column1 – Compound interest calculated daily at an annual rate of 29.50%

Column 2 – Compound interest calculated daily at an annual rate of 16.99%

Column 3 – Simple interest under s.69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at an annual rate

of 8.00%

 

10. Accordingly, the Claimant claims:

a) The return of the amounts debited between 12/12/200 and 13/10/06 in respect of charges in the sum of £xxxx.

 

b) All applicable Court fees

 

c) Contractual interest at an annual 29.50 % compounded daily from the date of each transaction to 21st January 2007 of £xxxx, and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of £xxxx

 

d) In the alternative to 10.c), Contractual interest at an annual rate of 16.99% compounded daily from the date of each transaction to 21st January 2007 of £xxxx and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of £xxxx

 

e) In the alternative to 10.c) and d), interest under section 69 County Courts Act (1984) at the rate of 8% a year, from the date of each transaction to 21st January 2007, and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of £xxxx

 

 

Now, i also need.

 

Court Bundle - Fine, i have that

Commisioners report ( Northern Ireland Personal Banking) - i need a link guys.

Witness Statement - I have looked at this and a lot of it is already in my PoC and Court bundle.. do i still need it..

Other Cases - Some wording for my PoC regarding other cases (Lincoln) and case numbers. Just to bring it to te judges attention.

 

I think this will be enough for my court paperwork. what do you guys think?????

[Josamolly]

Any other little gems that others have used that i could put in??

[Josamolly]

Just need to work out the daily interest.. how does that work..

 

Also, need a link to Commisioners report ( Northern Ireland Personal Banking)..

 

and a couple of other bits from above post..

 

Plan to file on wednesday..

[martinhw]

Just a quick question on your POC - the following point confuses me...

maintained at the Defendant’s Dunstable Branch

 

Then you make reference to the following ....

The Claimant will rely on the Competition Commission’s report entitled “Northern Irish Personal Banking,” published on 20th October, 2006, as evidence that the Defendant is aware that the income derived from its default charges is calculated to generate material profits and is not merely a means of recouping losses incurred in relation to Account defaults. The defendant is fully aware of this report as Ulster Bank is a subsidiary to RBS (defendant).

 

Do you live in Ireland, or just using the Irish Banking report. It also makes reference to Ulster bank, and RBS as the (defendant) . Do RBS own NatWest? - I'm confused as you can see

 

The reason for my questioning is - i want to use your POC - I live in England and don't want to add anything I don't understand...or isn't relevant to english law.

[Josamolly]

Hi Martin.. no i don't live in Ireland, i am just using it as part of my claim as RBS and Nat West are related.

 

The PoC was written by Lively Lad and Mcuth, and what a great job they have done of it.

 

Good luck

[RobberBank]

Hi Jos

 

We're at LBA stage and i was wondering if you had a response to your LBA as it was different to the template in the library. As you know, we're on the contractual route too so i just want to keep tabs on the situ with yourself and others who're at or beyond our stage.

 

Cheers

[Josamolly]

Hi Robber... sat here now sorting my court bundle out ready to file on Wednesday..

 

Still a bit unsure about going for 29.5% though. Haven't had time to read thru many successes so i'm not sure how others have got on, or whether any have actually gone for that amount.

 

I'll sleep on it. At the moment i am at the stage that i'm thinking if i go for contractual i may as well go for the full amount and barter a bit if i need to.

 

A little uneasy i must say.. i'll keep an eye on yours also, and bump it up when i need to.