Calling all HSBC claimants!! Why restrict your claim to 6 Years?!!

[Guest bong]

If you already have the statements then I would urge you not to restrict your claim to just 6 years, go for the whole lot!!

 

It may be worth pointing out that at this point in time you are unlikely to get data older than 6 years from HSBC because they haven't yet admitted that they hold records longer than that. Until someone manages to find out anything different (there is rumour of them holding data on microfiche) then this is only really intended to help people who hoard all their paperwork (like Crusher).

 

Don't be put off by the Limitation Act 1980 - they have just paid me back 13.5 years of charges with compound interest too! My full thread runs to twenty something pages so I have summarised it all in this one post. I can't really refer to it as a contractual interest win because it wasn't paid at the rate specified in the contract BUT it was 9.34% compounded daily on each charge, and came to quite a bit more than 8% simple statutory interest.

 

To start with here’s what I won:

 

Bank charges 7/1993 to 11/2000 £575.50

Bank charges 11/2000 to 11/2006 £1,799

Overdraft interest on charges 9/2001 to 11/2006 £431.03

Interest compounded daily (7/1993 to 3/2007) £1,346.65*

court filing fee £120

AQ fee £100

Application fee to have defence struck out £35

Total £4407.18

 

*the compound interest worked out to

£851.63 on the charges outside the 6 year period,

£381.11 on charges inside the 6 year period, and

£113.91 on the overdraft interest.

 

I started the process at the end of August 2006:

 

29/8/2006 prelim letter sent to Leeds claiming charges and overdraft interest on charges May 2001 to Aug 2006. no reply.

 

13/9/2006 LBA sent with updated schedule to include overdraft interest applied since prelim letter.

 

25/9/2006 I wrote (see letter here) adding to my claim charges dating back to 1999, and stating that I would be relying on s.32(1)(b) of the Limitation Act 1980 because of the bank’s concealment of the facts relevant to my right of action. I gave them a further 7 days to comply with my request.

 

In October I looked into the possibility of adding contractual interest to my claim.

 

23/10/2006 I wrote (see letter here) adding even older charges dating back to 1993 and contractual interest at their standard overdraft rate 15.9%. I used Mindzai’s spreadsheet for calculating compound interest (see here). I gave them another extended period of 7 days to comply before I would be raising a court claim.

 

On the same day they replied to my letter of 25/9/2006 (see letter here) saying that they would not consider refunding charges older than 6 years, as they were time-barred, that they would not refund any overdraft interest, and offering to refund £1585 - just under 90% of the charges incurred in the last 6 years in full and final settlement of my claim.

 

26/10/2006 I replied (see letter here) because our letters had crossed in the post and gave them a final deadline of 6/11/06 to reconsider. They never replied to this.

 

13/11/2006 I submitted my claim to court on N1 form. (see Particulars of Claim here). I did not include reference to Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 in my particulars of claim because they do not apply to contracts entered into before 1/7/1995.

 

22/11/2006 DG solicitors acknowledged the claim, stating intention to defend in full. They had until 20/12/2006 to enter a defence.

 

13/12/2006 defence entered (see here). AQs had to be in by 29/12/2006.

 

19/12/2006 DG solicitors wrote (see letter here) on a without prejudice basis, offering me just 6 years charges (£1799) plus 8% simple interest (£265) plus claim issue fee (total £2184). So no charges older than 6 years, no overdraft interest and no contractual interest.

 

21/12/2006 I replied (posted in same link as their letter above) saying no thanks.

 

29/12/2006 I returned the AQ to court, asking for an extra 7 days to submit an application to strike out the defence and attaching draft order for directions for both parties to submit documents, if court would not agree to my late application.

 

31/12/2006 I wrote to DG solicitors telling them my claim had increased by £100 AQ filing fee.

 

6/1/2007 I applied to court, on an N244 form with a fee of £35, to strike out the defence and for summary judgement on the claim in my favour, with costs. (see here for text of the application). I attached a list of cases that HSBC had settled out of court to the application as evidence. I can’t upload this but if anyone’s interested there is a spreadsheet of settled claims prepared by mcuth here.

 

19/1/2007 court issued date for hearing of the claim on 27/4/2007, court bundles to be exchanged and filed 14 days before hearing.

 

23/1/2007 court issued date for hearing of my application on 16/3/2007

 

27/2/2007 DG solicitors sent me a draft amended defence, (see here) saying they would be defending my application to strike out the defence and asking for my consent to it to save the costs of the hearing on 16/3/07. The amended defence threatened that they would be applying to have my claims for +6 year charges and contractual interest struck out.

 

I was ill between 28/2/07 and 7/3/07 so I couldn’t deal with it.

 

8/3/2007 DG solicitors wrote again saying that as I had not responded they had made an application for permission to file the amended defence, to be listed at the same hearing as the one to strike out the defence, and they enclosed their witness statement (see here) and court bundle of evidence (loads of old terms and conditions and price lists from 1997 to 2006 plus copies of my bank statements for the last 6 years) in support of their application. The witness statement attempted to discredit my case for claiming overdraft interest, +6year charges and contractual interest.

 

12/3/2007 I sent off a wee letter to the court (same link as posted above - but only read if you have 5 minutes to spare). What I said in those 12 pages, in essence, was that

• the amended defence contained bare denials and so didn’t comply with CPR,
  
• if they had wanted to strike out parts of the claim they should have applied before AQ stage,
  
• the fact that their defence was based in the charges being the price of a service and not the cost incurred by the bank for the account breaches was a contradiction to what was stated in the terms & conditions, meaning that the terms & conditions amounted to a concealment of the facts. I also made a case for the payment of the charges being a mistake arising out of their concealment, because I had believed the charges not to be penalties when I paid them. Therefore their intention to strike out the claim for charges older than 6 years before there was a judgement on whether the charges were penalties, and then to settle the last 6 years charges out of court (as they had already offered) would mean that their defence was an abuse of process and would obstruct the just disposal of the proceedings giving grounds for the defence to be struck out, especially given that the bank had failed to defend any claim yet at a hearing.
  
• I made a case for showing that the charges were penalties payable on breach of contract and not service charges, and re-asserted my right to claim overdraft interest and contractual interest.
  
• Finally I asked the court to consider ordering standard disclosure, if the defendant was permitted to file an amended defence.

I also wrote a letter to DG solicitors (posted in link above) enclosing a copy of my letter to court and further explained my claim for overdraft interest. I made an offer to reduce my claim by £210 in the interests of an early settlement out of court.

 

14/3/2007 DG solicitors emailed a letter to me offering to settle for £4,200.29. This offer included all charges back to 1993, all overdraft interest, court costs and £1139.76 interest on the charges only. My claim for compound interest at 15.9% (as at 14/3/07) was £2766.50 on the charges and £210.67 on the overdraft interest.

 

14/3/2007 I emailed a letter back saying I would settle if they also paid interest at the same rate on the overdraft interest.

 

14/3/2007 DG emailed a letter back agreeing to pay interest on the overdraft interest and to pay the money into my account that night. The interest they paid (£1346.65) worked out to 9.34% compounded daily on each charge and overdraft interest debit since 1993.

 

The reason I didn’t hold out for the 15.9% interest was that I was unsure how it would swing in court and I didn’t want to end up with an award of 8% simple interest (£840) if I pursued it to court. Hindsight is always a good thing but I believe now that they would not have let it get to court anyway and I probably could have got the 15.9% if I had pushed harder. So I dropped my claim by £1630. It really does turn into a game of chicken in the end. I found their weakness (concealment/limitation) and they found mine (contractual interest)!

 

14/3/2007 £4407.18 cleared funds deposited in my account - 4 months after filing claim!

[nettyg]

bong, you're just fantastic!!

what a good thread

nets

[Spiceskull]

Until someone manages to find out anything different (there is rumour of them holding data on microfiche)

I have it confirmed on good authority form various sources that:

 

Transaction history is stored on fiche (HSBC Records Retrieval - 2006 08 31 )

Transaction history is NOT stored on fiche (Debbie D'Aubney)

Original contracts with HSBC are stored on fiche (Debbie D'Aubney)

My own original contract with HSBC is stored on fiche (Debbie D'Aubney)

 

In light of this confession by Debbie I asked specifically why this had not then been supplied as requested...and received a deathly silence in response...

*I have never signed a contract with HSBC, only with Midland Bank , so you can reach your own conclusions about who is telling the truth out of the above statements...

 

However, despite three separate SARs I have yet to receive any history or notes older than six years. I will therefore take the route taken by others, and apply for a disclosure order from the court, compelling HSBC to provide this data. I will call the agent from Records Retrieval to provide a sworn statement, although I suspect that he will now be involved in "other" duties...

[givememymoney]

Great thread and really useful for my second claim

[stabiloboss]

Hi Bong,

 

Wow! You should be knighted - or the female equiv. This couldn't be more motivating, helpful and imformative if HSBC's book of dirty secrets was published.

 

Well done and be assured you've reserved your place in heaven!

 

Thanks a million!

[chezt]

Well done Bong - ur a superstar!

[bill-k]

That is brilliant, Bong. Thank you so very much !!!!

 

Is it a bird ?............Is it a claim?...........No -

 

It's......

UPERBONG !!!

[Guest bong]

please don't embarrass me:p

[Glenn UK]

I have a potential claim against HSBC née Midland.

 

I was in there this week to confirm i was me, their operative called up on the screen my signature from my original agreement, the account was closed around 9 years ago.

 

They have at least a copy of the agreement with my mark on it.

 

Glenn

[Spiceskull]

I was in there this week to confirm i was me, they ooperative called up on thew screen my signature from my originalk agreement, the account was closed around 9 years ago.

Interesting tactic - I also had an account that I closed many years ago, and this diversionary approach may send them off the scent that it is really me...I might just give it a go...

[Guest bong]

surely we must have some hsbc employees on here who are willing to spill the beans, anonymously ofcourse

[Glenn UK]

AS it happens i have some statements which show charges, if they refuse to supply statements i will use them to estimate damages and file for non-compliance under the DPA see if that works.

 

Glenn

[stabiloboss]

Good point Glenn,

 

I actually had a problem with a very unhelpful 'computer says no' bubblegum chewing girl a couple of months ago when I tried to withdraw cash because my signature didn't match the one I opened my account with in 1993!!!!!

 

HA!

[xfox]

How do you work out the compound interest exactly?

[Guest bong]

hi xfox, I've posted a link to the spreadhseet I used in my first post. You don't need to calculate it, you just put in the rate and the charges info and the spreadsheet does the work.

[nettyg]

ok i'm an ex-employee of hsbc (forward trust to be exact)

we used to keep 6 year records on the roof in storage, then when the time was up - they were transferred to archive storage but can't remember the name of the company we archived with!! i'll find this info out and come back with it hopefully - if i can get any of my ex-colleagues to spill the beans

[BreezyDay]

If you already have the statements then I would urge you not to restrict your claim to just 6 years, go for the whole lot!!

 

29/8/2006 prelim letter sent to Leeds claiming charges and overdraft interest on charges May 2001 to Aug 2006. no reply.

 

13/9/2006 LBA sent with updated schedule to include overdraft interest applied since prelim letter.

 

25/9/2006 I wrote (see letter here) adding to my claim charges dating back to 1999, and stating that I would be relying on s.32(1)(b) of the Limitation Act 1980 because of the bank’s concealment of the facts relevant to my right of action. I gave them a further 7 days to comply with my request.

 

23/10/2006 I wrote (see letter here) adding even older charges dating back to 1993 and contractual interest at their standard overdraft rate 15.9%.

 

Hi Bong

 

Many congrats on your well deserved win. Your work was extremely impressive. Are you sure you're not a lawyer in disguise!

 

I have been reading your original thread today and trying to get my head around the legal aspects - my head is now aching. (Yesterday I was reading Wilkinss208 rollercoaster ride with the bank and my emotions were all over the place!!!)

 

From what I can gather if my brain isn't completely frazzled, you claimed additional charges for pre-6 year period 'allowed' after you had sent your LBA. The reason I ask is I've just sent my LBA letters and have been kicking myself for not including years previous to 2001.

 

Would I be able to rectify this with another letter or is it too late?

 

Any help greatly appreciated

Breezy

[Guest bong]

Hi Breezy, its not too late if you haven't already started court proceedings. Even then you could amend your claim with an application and a fee of £35 but seeing as you're not at that stage yet then just send an amended LBA, pointing out that you're adding in the extra charges and giving them additional time to consider your claim.

[BreezyDay]

Hi Breezy, its not too late if you haven't already started court proceedings. Even then you could amend your claim with an application and a fee of £35 but seeing as you're not at that stage yet then just send an amended LBA, pointing out that you're adding in the extra charges and giving them additional time to consider your claim.

 

Many thanks Bong. I will start my own thread and post it in the relevant bank section.I am sure I will need your help though - change to definitely will need it!!!

[JOSH_IOU]

claim compound interest contractual interest and the interest your awarded under the courts act.

[Guest bong]

the claim for interest must be based in either contract or statute, and just to clarify, contractual interest must be based in the rate the bank charges us and is compound, because that is the method the bank uses when applying interest to our accounts.

[BreezyDay]

To be honest I am still mulling over the whole idea of claiming pre-6 years. I need to do more reading of the Limitation Act before I proceed any further. Have been re-reading your legal letters Bong to get a clear understanding of the arguments from both sides.

 

To get an idea of whether it would be worth my while in a monetary sense, I did a first draft spreadsheet of charges from my 'old' statements. Funny how charges back in 1995 were £2.50 and lept to £20 in 1997.

 

Did I read somewhere you can't reclaim prior to 1995 for some reason; I can't remember what it was?

[Guest bong]

hi Breezy, could have been this that you're thinking of, in my first post above

13/11/2006 I submitted my claim to court on N1 form. (see Particulars of Claim here). I did not include reference to Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 in my particulars of claim because they do not apply to contracts entered into before 1/7/1995.

[Microdotster]

Well done bong, great thread. Im seriously thinking about claiming over my 6 year claim. Got to sort out the problems with my normal claim first. LOL

[BreezyDay]

hi Breezy, could have been this that you're thinking of, in my first post above

 

Hi Bong, yes it was. I have since re-read that section of yours although I haven't yet read why this applies. Loads more reading to do.

 

I feel a trip to the stationer's coming on for more ring binders!!! Could perhaps borrow my brother's trailer when I go which is currently 'lodging' in my garage taking up valuable space!