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    • no i meant the email from parcel2go which email address did they send it from and who signed it off (whos name is at the bottom)
    • I understand confusion with this thread.  I tried to keep threads separate because there have been so many angles.    But a team member merged them all.  This is why it's hard to keep track. This forum exists to help little people fight injustice - however big or small.  Im here to try get a decent resolution. Not to give in to the ' big boys'. My "matter' became complicated 'matters' simply because a lender refused to sell a property. What can I say?  I'll try in a nutshell to give an overview: There's a long lease property. I originally bought it short lease with a s.146 on it from original freeholder.  I had no concerns. So lender should have been able to sell a well-maintained lovely long lease property.  The property was great. The issue is not the property.  Economy, sdlt increases, elections, brexit, covid, interest hikes etc didn't help.  The issue is simple - the lender wanted to keep it.    Before repo I offered to clear my loan.  I was a bit short and lender refused.  They said (recorded) they thought the property was worth much more and they were happy to keep accruing interest (in their benefit) until it reached a point where they felt they could repo and still easily quickly sell to get their £s back.  This was a mistake.  The market was (and is) tough.   2y later the lender ceo bid the same sum to buy the property for himself. He'd rejected higher offers in the intervening period whilst accruing interest. I had the property under offer to a fantastic niche buyer but lender rushed to repo and buyer got spooked and walked.  It had taken a long time to find such a lucrative buyer.  A sale which would have resulted in £s and another asset for me. Post repo lender had 1 offer immediately.  But dragged out the process for >1y - allegedly trying to get other offers. But disclosure shows there was only one valid buyer. Lender appointed receiver (after 4 months) - simply to try acquire the freehold.  He used his powers as receiver to use me, as leaseholder, to serve notice on freeholders.  Legally that failed. Meanwhile lender failed to secure property - and squatters got in (3 times).  And they failed to maintain it.  So freeholders served a dilapidations notice (external) - on me as leaseholder (cc-ed to lender).   (That's how it works legally) I don't own the freehold.  But I am a trustee and have to do right by the freeholders.  This is where matters got/ get complicated.  And probably lose most caggers.   Lawyers got involved for the freeholders to firstly void the receiver enfranchisement notice. Secondly, to serve the dilapidations notice.  The lack of maintenance was in breach of lease and had to be served to protect fh asset. The lender did no repairs. They said a buyer would undertake them. Which was probably correct. If they had sold. After 1y lender finally agreed to sell to the 1st offeror and contracts went with lawyers.  Within 1 month lender reneged.  Lender tried to suggest buyer walked. Evidence shows he/ his lawyers continued trying to exchange (cash) for 4 months.  Evidence shows lender and receiver strategy had been to renege and for ceo to take control.   I still think that's their plan. Lender then stupidly chose to pretty much bulldoze the property.  Other stuff was going on in the background. After repo I was in touch by phone and email and lender knew post got to me.   Despite this, after about 10 months (before and then during covid), they deliberately sent SDs and eventually a B petition to an incorrect address and an obscure small court.  They never served me properly.  (In hindsight I understand they hoped to get a backdoor B - so they could keep the property that way.)  Eventually the random court told them to email me by way of service.  At this point their ruse to make me B failed.  I got a lawyer (friend paid). The B petition was struck out. They’d failed to include the property as an asset. They were in breach of insolvency rules. Simultaneously the receiver again appointed lawyers to act on my behalf as leaseholder. This time to serve notice on the freeholders for a lease extension.  He had hoped to try and vary the strict lease. Evidence shows the already long length of lease wasn't an issue.  The lender obviously hoped to get round their lack of permission to do works (which they were already doing) by hoping to remove the strict clauses that prevent leaseholder doing alterations.   The extension created a new legal angle for me to deal with.  I had to act as trustee for freeholders against me as leaseholder/ the receiver.  Inconsistencies and incompetence by receiver lawyers dragged this out 3y.  It still isn't properly resolved.  Meanwhile - going back to the the works the lender undertook. The works were consciously in breach of lease.  The lender hadn't remedied the breaches listed in the dilapidations notice.  They destroyed the property.  The trustees compiled all evidence.  The freeholders lawyers then served a forfeiture notice. This notice started a different legal battle. I was acting for the freeholders against what the lender had done on my behalf as leaseholder.  This legal battle took 3y to resolve. The simple exit would have been for lender to sell. A simple agreement to remedy the breaches and recompense the freeholders in compensation - and there's have been clean title to sell.  That option was proposed to them.   This happened by way of mediation for all parties 2y ago.  A resolution option was put forward and in principle agreed.  But immediately after the lender lawyers failed to engage.  A hard lesson to learn - mediation cannot be referred to in court. It's considered w/o prejudice. The steps they took have made no difference to their ability to sell the property.  Almost 3y since they finished works they still haven't sold. ** ** I followed up some leads myself.  A qualified cash buyer offered me a substantial sum.  The lender and receiver both refused it.   I found another offer in disclosure.  6 months later someone had apparently offered a substantial sum via an agent.  The receiver again rejected it.  The problem of course was that the agent had inflated the market price to get the business. But no-one was or is ever going to offer their list price.  Yet the receiver wanted/wants to hold out for the list price.  Which means 1y later not only has it not sold - disclosure shows few viewings and zero interest.  It's transparently over-priced.  And tarnished. For those asking why I don't give up - I couldn't/ can't.  Firstly I have fiduciary duties as a trustee. Secondly, legal advice indicates I (as leaseholder) could succeed with a large compensation claim v the lender.  Also - I started a claim v my old lawyer and the firm immediately reimbursed some £s. That was encouraging.  And a sign to continue.  So I'm going for compensation.  I had finance in place (via friend) to do a deal and take the property back off the lender - and that lawyer messed up bad.   He should have done a deal.  Instead further years have been wasted.   Maybe I only get back my lost savings - but that will be a result.   If I can add some kind of complaint/ claim v the receiver's conscious impropriety I will do so.   I have been left with nothing - so fighting for something is worth it. The lender wants to talk re a form of settlement.  Similar to my proposal 2y ago.  I have a pretty clear idea of what that means to me.  This is exactly why I do not give up.  And why I continue to ask for snippets of advice/ pointers on cag.  
    • It was all my own work based on my previous emails to P2G which Bank has seen.
    • I was referring to #415 where you wrote "I was forced to try to sell - and couldn't." . And nearer the start in #79 .. "I couldn't sell.  I had an incredibly valuable asset. Huge equity.  But the interest accrued / the property market suffered and I couldn't find a buyer even at a level just to clear the debt." In #194 you said you'd tried to sell for four years.  The reason for these points is that a lot of the claims against for example your surveyor, solicitor, broker, the lender and now the receiver are mainly founded in a belief that they should have been able to do something but did not. Things that might seem self evident to you but not necessarily to others. Pressing these claims may well need a bit more hard evidence, rather than an appeal to common sense. Can you show evidence of similar properties, with similar freehold issues, selling readily? And solid reasons why the lender should have been able to sell when you couldn't.
    • You can use a family's address.   The only caveat is for the final hearing you'd need to be there in person   HOWEVER i'd expect them to pay if its only £200 because costs of attending will be higher than that
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Council Tax - Tenant or Landlord Responsible?


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Hello All,

A good friend of mine let out a house to a lady ... she then "did a runner" and he is being chased for the council tax by the local council for the time she was living there.

She did not pay the council tax at all and her name was down as liable person to pay etc etc with the council.

My friend now sold house BUT he has a summons received last Wed to appear in court tomorrow (Tuesday) re non payment of council tax during the dates the lady was living in the house!!

Anybody help me to advise my friend on this one please?

 

Thank you

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

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I could, and mostly probably am, wrong here but I think it is the homeowners responsibility unless otherwise stated in a tenancy agreement. Usually, in the agreement, it will state that the tennant must pay the council tax for their period of stay.

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It is the tenants responsibility so long as it states it in the rental agreement.

 

If your friend goes to court and show the tenancy agreement, more than likely he will not even go in to the court room. The council or court may ask for proof of rent payment.

 

I say this on good authority as I have been in the same boat before with tenants not paying and council tax pursuing me for their bills.

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It is usually the tenants responsiblity to pay their council tax as I know to my mis fortune. If it does not say in the tenancy agreement that the tenant has to pay the landlord may become responsible.

 

I cannot afford to pay my council tax but I rent my flat fully furnished so no bailif can touch a thing. Despite this I am repeatedly threatend and harressed by ROSSENDALES who alledge they are profesionals. Professionals my foot. They are nothing more than glorified loan sharks. I have absolutely refused to their charges

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Thank you reallylight, thefenz and nedjma.

 

I have passed the info to my mate and he will be taking to court the tenancy agreement (which states the lady was responsible for council tax) and proof she was paying the rent hence living there during the dates involved.

He is somewhat confused by the council action as he has already told them she (the lady tenant) was responsible for paying.

 

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

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  • 5 months later...

I was 'informed' by a hulk of a woman from my local council that if my tenants don't pay C Tax, the council will hold me responsible! I am sure this is wrong as the woman in question was a complete moron and made mistake after mistake, despite holding a senior position and being very full of her own self importance. Nice to know our taxes are spent on the high wages of such deserving individuals:rolleyes:

Basically the council will try it on and grab their money from whoever they think they can bully into paying it. Landlords beware; check your tenancy agreements.

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Hello All,

 

The final outcome was ....

 

My mate won as it stated in the tenancy agreement the lady was responsible for council tax.

 

Thank you all for your help.

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

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Underdog13 knowing what the council employees are like here in Gateshead I am not at all suprised that an incompetent like this has been promoted. Most of Gateshead councils staff are as bright as a blackout. In my opinion though the council still has far to much power to harress people who simply cannot afford to pay council tax. I am one of those. I still have arrears and I still can't afford to pay them off. :-(

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My heartfelt sympathies Nedjma. I think you have to be a special kind of moron to be employed by the council in the first place. Totally agree with you about them having too much power. The irony is, if you don't pay your council tax you can go to prison, but prisoners don't have to pay their council tax while they're locked up - it would be funny if it weren't so tragic.:mad:

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Yes you also don't have to pay your council tax after you are released from prision. The logic of our goverment. Instead of realising people were refusing to pay council tax because they can't afford it they think they can force people who are low paid and in part time employment like me to have enough income to cover all my bills which I simply don't. I can't afford to pay half my bills this month because I bought food for a change. I still don't have enough food either and that cost me over £85 excluding cat which I forgot. Most of my money goes on my rent. I am having trouble with my landlord. He is refusing to accept my rent and trying to evict me now. I am sure this must be illegal?? Surely a landlord cannot refuse to take rent from his tenant then try to evict them on grounds of arrears he has caused himself?????????????????

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Hmmm sounds to me like your landlord is just looking for an excuse to evict you so he can sell up before prices drop even further or so that he can relet to another tenant with an increased rent. I'd take some advise if I were you Nedjma, tanants have a lot of rights and protection nowadays. I'm sorry you're having all these problems; must be a nightmare.

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Yes I am. I'm in a catch 22 situation. Pay my rent and be unable to pay my council tax or pay my council tax and not be able to afford to meet my whole monthly rent. The goverment in this country arrogantly refuses to admit to or see the plight of people like me and there are many more exactly like me all over the country. In my tenancy agreement it states that me and my landlord have an agreement that I pay him monthly to live in his property which is my home due to paying rent. Due to this agreement I am almost certain it is illegal for him to try to evict me becase he refuses to accept my rent payments. I am sure this is the reason the court refused to evict me the last time he tried to evict me. The court said it was his own fault. He is also trying to evict me for a second time without giving me notice and I know he can't do this. He must provide a tenant with notice and give you time to respond when going through an eviction process. He is refusing to carry out repairs on my property so I think he is hoping to get a new tenant who won't complain about this issue. :-(

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  • 5 months later...
Underdog13 knowing what the council employees are like here in Gateshead I am not at all suprised that an incompetent like this has been promoted. Most of Gateshead councils staff are as bright as a blackout. In my opinion though the council still has far to much power to harress people who simply cannot afford to pay council tax. I am one of those. I still have arrears and I still can't afford to pay them off. :-(

 

Gateshead council is the worst council anywhere, unhelpful and moronic. A tenant ran off with out paying the council tax, over 18 months. almost £861.00. I left them with tenancy agreements, indicating the property was let.

 

Now they have sent me a summons to court. They want me to provide them with details of where the tenant is now...how would i know where a tenant is now, when hes ran off without paying me!!!

 

GOD....I HATE Gateshead COUNCIL!

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God that's awful, deepak. Have you soken to a solicitor about this?

 

I was told by my local council that if the tenant doesn't pay council tax, they will make the landlord pay, but this seems ludicrous to me. Where in law can they make you responsible for someone else's debt?!

 

I think these jerks will try it on, as will utility companies, but we have to stand up to them and tell them in no uncertain terms to get lost.

 

If I were you, I'd write to the council and tell them to inform you of the tenants whereabouts as you want the rent that is owed to you! What a bunch of brain dead morons - my sympathies to you, Deepak.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Things can work the other way around. A previous landlord of mine, presumably thinking I was still living in the US as I had been planning to, faked a new tenancy agreement to cover a period when otherwise they would have been liable for the council tax. Unfortunately, I am back living in the UK, and was extremely surprised to find myself chased for this council tax. I have now submitted proof of different residence to the council, and hope they will pursue the landlord for every penny.

This landlord never refunded my deposit at the time, so this motivates me to look at legal options also.

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God that's awful, deepak. Have you soken to a solicitor about this?

 

I was told by my local council that if the tenant doesn't pay council tax, they will make the landlord pay, but this seems ludicrous to me. Where in law can they make you responsible for someone else's debt?!

 

 

The local authority had no right to tell you that - they have no powers to interpret the legislation differently to the way its written.

 

I know of an authority where several staff had said similar things (individuals, not council policy) and were given a blunt response from the legal services dept to remind them it was Ultra Vires and should cease.

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I was in court today for Council Tax (see my thread for full report) and this issue came up in somebody else's case.

 

The guy from the Council stated in court that the tenant is usually responsible for the Council Tax. He didn't mention about terms of the tenancy agreement, but did ask to see a copy without giving a reason, so perhaps what the other posters have said is true about whether it has that term in it or not about the tenant being liable.

 

He also stated that the landlord is responsible in the case of "HMO" properties ("Houses of multiple occupancy") - which is where the property is divided up with locks on each bedroom door and separate rental agreements.

 

As a general point, if you think you are going to win, you might as well go into court and show your evidence to the Magistrate, as you will then be given the opportunity to claim costs against the Council.

 

If you lose then the worst that happens is that you get a liability order against you, which just means you have to make an arrangement to pay the Council Tax.

 

In my opinion the Council are just firing these summons off to all and sundry because of the excessive profit that they make on them (today at my hearing it was over 2,000 summons and over £130,000 made for the Council just in "costs").

 

They shouldn't be allowed to bully thousands of people and then negotiate with the ones that they cocked up on 5 minutes before the hearing. Everyone should stand up and be counted until the system breaks down - Councils are out of control.

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'The guy from the Council stated in court that the tenant is usually responsible for the Council Tax. He didn't mention about terms of the tenancy agreement, but did ask to see a copy without giving a reason, so perhaps what the other posters have said is true about whether it has that term in it or not about the tenant being liable.'

 

 

The LGFA 1992 cannot be overridden by wording of a contract to make a person liable (unless it comes under one of the 6 prescriptive states in the Council Tax (Liability of Owners ) regs 1992 when the owner is always liable).

 

It would possibly be good to see someone take a case like that to the High Court to see in who's favour they would rule - I would be almost certain they wouldn't find against the legislation.

 

(I've just done a professional qualification in council tax law and haven't come across any cases where this has already been challenged)

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Unfortunately not, it was made up of a series of lectures and lecture notes. The course itself was run the IRRV.

 

I know what you mean though there aren't really any books out that there that go through the legislation in an easy to learn format.

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I was in court today for Council Tax (see my thread for full report) and this issue came up in somebody else's case.

 

The guy from the Council stated in court that the tenant is usually responsible for the Council Tax. He didn't mention about terms of the tenancy agreement, but did ask to see a copy without giving a reason, so perhaps what the other posters have said is true about whether it has that term in it or not about the tenant being liable.

 

He also stated that the landlord is responsible in the case of "HMO" properties ("Houses of multiple occupancy") - which is where the property is divided up with locks on each bedroom door and separate rental agreements.

 

As a general point, if you think you are going to win, you might as well go into court and show your evidence to the Magistrate, as you will then be given the opportunity to claim costs against the Council.

 

If you lose then the worst that happens is that you get a liability order against you, which just means you have to make an arrangement to pay the Council Tax.

 

In my opinion the Council are just firing these summons off to all and sundry because of the excessive profit that they make on them (today at my hearing it was over 2,000 summons and over £130,000 made for the Council just in "costs").

 

They shouldn't be allowed to bully thousands of people and then negotiate with the ones that they cocked up on 5 minutes before the hearing. Everyone should stand up and be counted until the system breaks down - Councils are out of control.

 

Wholeheartedly agree.

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  • 1 year later...

Hello there! I am a tenant who seems to have a problems with his landlord. Basicly whats the case:

- I did rent 2 double bedrooms in a flat with my family (4 people) for 800 pounds a month with bills included as stated in tenancy agreement.

- Apart from that there were 2 single bedrooms which were rented by other people so we were living (8 people) for a year like that.

- Later on after an year my mother got sick and she went to her motherland for almost a year.

 

After two years guess what happens my father recieve a council tax bill which wasn't payed for year and a half and he have to get it payed, The landlord says so even tho we had other agreement. And in tenancy agreement isn't stated that we have to pay the council tax.

 

Despite all that mess I want to mention that in the flat we were living ( my family 4 people) weren't the only ones that were living in that flat.

And currently we are 11 people and he still insist us to get it payed.

 

I hope you did get my story, still learning english.

What would you advise me to do?

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