Can this company hold back "training" costs from my salary?

[gemspan]

Hi there

 

Wondered if anybody could help. I started with a company at the beginning of January. Prior to going on the training course, which was unpaid and lasted 5 days in total, I was asked to sign a piece of paper which said that if I left the company before completing 6 months employment I would have to pay £95 back to them for training.

 

I worked for this company for almost 5 months and then sat down and calculated the amount of work I was having to do and the money I was being paid. It worked out at £3.76 per hour - below the minimum wage. I live on my own and decided I had to find something else that paid a decent salary as I couldnt live on this.

 

I sent in a letter and asked them to supply me with a leaving date so that I would not have to pay back the £95. They told me that I was to leave immediately as they had somebody to take over my classes and they would pay me until the end of July - but I would have to pay the £95 back. Somebody else handed in their notice at the same time as me and they were allowed to work until they had passed the 6 month time limit for paying back the £95.

 

I find this unfair. I offered to work and they told me to leave. I was actually working for less than the minimum wage so therefore what they are doing is against the law AND they have taken the £95 off my last salary - which is hardly anything anyway.

 

I didnt have any choice in this matter. I had to go along with what they said. Does anybody think that I could take this further and get the £95 back. Is it a case of constructive dismissal being that they were paying below the minimum wage and I couldnt live on that.

 

Any advice would be gratefully received.

 

Kind regards

Gemspan

[GlasweJen]

employers are allowed to take off the cost of training from your final wage if it's in your contract they are not, however, allowed to pay you less than minimum wage so I would complain to the department of work and pensions about that.

[GlasweJen]

Looked into this more for you and have found that employers are allowed to withhold the balance of training courses if you leave because you are effectively taking their training elsewhere. Taking 5 days to train you seems excessive and you should have been paid for this training if it was essential to your job. It's funny how we're both in Edinburgh and both have issues with work, we can't possibly work for the same company but it does seem that edinburgh employers have a habit of twisting law to suit themselves.

[gemspan]

Thanks Jenschnifer

 

I am going to take this further. £95 is a lot of money when you only take home a pittance anyway. I had to fork out for animal care for 5 days when I was away training with them @ £20 per day. I wasnt paid for the training and some days it went on until 9pm at night. It was exhausting.

 

I will let you know what happens

 

Gemspan

[Muffintop]

take a look at my new thread skeggsy v vauxhall.

 

My son was an apprentice and if you are in training the company can pay you below the minimum working wage, did this apply to you? my son was paid 2.33 per hour for an 8 hour day for vauxhall slave labour.

[GlasweJen]

Even when you were training you are still entitled to rights under the working time regulations, you should not be expected to work all day for nothing!

[Muffintop]

Really? we were always told that as he was in training on a paid apprentership he was paid such a low wage for so long.... now I need to find out if this is the case.

[GlasweJen]

sorry that was to gemspan, unfortunately apprentises are paid lower than minimum wage.

[royzor]

The only way a company can pay you lower than minimum wage is when it is a goverment training scheme, otherwise they have to pay the minimum wage. If they have not they will have to back date your pay from when you started. I read this when i was looking for information for my niece.

I maybe wrong.

 

Roz

[Muffintop]

Yes as i thought, he was a Vauxhall apprentice and was taken to block training over the course of 3 years and put up at training school in hotel all board paid, this is why they got away with treating him like a 2nd rate citizen and paying him such a pittance and they wonder why he left as soon as he had passed and then went onto work for a company that would respect him and treat him equally. Im sure there are loads of young people doing apprenterships for various dealerships being treated the same way, Im surprised he hung on 3 years to be honest and now its the straw that broke the camels back that they have refused to supply a breakdown of his last wage which was lower than it should have been, or supply a p45 or a breakdown of all holiday he has taken or not and any that is owing as well as the months pay he should have got. Waiting to see if my works solicitor will take it on and if not will go to cab next. skeggsy

[GlasweJen]

To be fair skeggsy it sounds like your son got a good deal, many apprentices around here are paid at the same rate as your son but do not get sent off to do courses with hotel stays included, they do their course at the work place and shadow a trained member of staff. That does not give his employer the right to refuse to give a breakdown of his pay and i would recommend once again that you write asking for one and threatening further action if they refuse to cough it up.

[Weird Al Yankovic]

The only way a company can pay you lower than minimum wage is when it is a goverment training scheme, otherwise they have to pay the minimum wage. If they have not they will have to back date your pay from when you started. I read this when i was looking for information for my niece.

I maybe wrong.

 

Roz

 

An employment that is commission based only can legally pay less than the minimum wage.

 

Or it could pay more-it's decided by the talents of the person. I fear the OP of this thread was on commisson?

[gemspan]

Hi there

 

No I wasnt. I was paid a set amount to carry out a class. However, in order to do the class I had to do preparatory work and also work at the end of the week - paperwork, banking etc., There was also additional work that was expected of me by way of promotional activity that was unpaid. I calculated the hourly rate without actually including the promotional activity and various other little "extras". If I had included them in my calculations then it would have worked out nearer £1.50 to £2.00 per hour - seriously!!!!

 

The fact of the matter is that I attended 5 days training in order that I could do the job. This was unpaid. I had to pay for animal care while I attended the training course and petrol was only paid for at 20p per mile. My car runs at 28p per mile. I attended various classes without pay and had to find various venues for classes - without pay. when I did start I got £16 per class and commission on anything I sold and also bonus if I had more than 13 peeps at the class. I am talking about the hourly rate here, not the commission. That is entirely separate.

 

I hope this clears things up.

 

Kind regards

Gemspan

[Weird Al Yankovic]

Your car runs at 28p per mile?!:o What car is it?

 

The way you have calculated your hourly rate will be different to how HM Revenue & Customs will calculate it. It appears you do have an element of commission & bonus within your wage so the best thing to do is get in touch with the R&C.

 

What does your contracted hours say you will be paid and your hours of work?

[gemspan]

The contract does not specify hours of work; it merely specifies £16 per class. I initially started doing 8 classes and then it reduced to 4. This is paid at £16 per class. A class lasts 1 hour but there is the travelling time. Basically a class takes 2 hours to do which calculates to £8 per hour. However in order to carry out the class, you have to do specific things to prepare ie shop for ingredients (approx 1 hour!), cook 3 meals (approx. 2 hours); learn talk (approx. 2 hours); prepare noticeboard (approx. 1 hour); do paperwork and calculate banking (approx. 2 hours); go to bank and bank money (apprx 1 hour). 9 hours in total to prepare to do the class. Without doing this, the class could not take place. Also expected to do 4 hours promo per week. Total 13 hours.

 

Payment for 1 class is £16. If I was doing 8 classes, it worked out at £4.41 per hour. However, I ended up doing only 4 classes which worked out at £3.04 per hour.

 

My car is a 4wd. I need this because I have dogs and work them. I also live in the country. Please bear in mind that the cost of 28p per mile has to take into consideration wear and tear on my car, together with tax and insurance.

 

Kind regards

Gemspan

[Weird Al Yankovic]

I think your wage may fall into something like 'piece work.' Your particular job doesn't have set hours and would be hard to define so I don't think the minimum wage actually applies.

You couldn't add on travel time in any case.

 

I'd call the R&C helpline to discuss.

 

Good luck.

[gemspan]

Hi there

 

I made 2 interesting calls today. One was to ACAS helpline. They advised me that any work you do should be paid - and that includes training!! I was paid monthly, paid tax and nat ins on my basic salary and therefore the minimum wage does in fact apply. I was advised to phone National Minimum Wage Advice Line (0845 6000 678 and spoke to somebody there. I explained all the circumstances and they have decided to take on the case. they are sending the details to a compliance officer who will investigate my claim. If I am successful I will get paid for training, have my wages backdated and also get paid for all the unpaid work I did.

 

I await the outcome but it seems fairly clear cut. They wouldnt take on a case if they didnt think it was worth it.

 

I will let you know the outcome. They say it could be 6-8 weeks before a compliance officer contacts me. The problem I have is that I have to get references for new jobs and am a bit worried about how this will affect me. They say they wont give my name but the employer will know it is me because that is what I put in my resignation letter and I am sure that is why they wanted me to leave immediately. I will also get the £95 training costs refunded.

 

Kind regards

Gemspan

[GlasweJen]

don't worry it's bad for employers to give a bad reference especially in your case as it will look really bad if it pops up at tribunal. Your employer may just give a basic reference saying

 

Gemspan worked for My Company Ltd from 1st Julaugust 2005 until the 32nd September 2006 doing the job of workerperson.

[gemspan]

THanks for that. Its terrible that you have to worry about doing the right thing isnt it?

 

Gemspan

[gemspan]

Hi there

 

I wonder if anybody could help me.

 

I started a new job 2 weeks ago. I have to undergo 4 weeks training. On day 3 of my training I ate a sandwich out of the vending machine and contracted food poisoning. I was off work for the next 6 days and dragged myself back the following Wednesday although I still wasnt able to eat anything. I felt so guilty about being off.

 

THe day I went back I was taken aside by the course leader and a personal development plan was put in place. This meant that instead of working the 5 hours per night that was happening during training, I was required to work from 2pm until 10pm. I did this on the Thursday and it just about killed me as I was still too weak.

 

I am still not well at all. I am still feeling very weak, have cold sores, mouth ulcers etc., and cannot possibly work those hours. I could manage the 5 hours but feel I am holding peeps back on the course.

 

I have today contacted the training dept and they have offered me a place on a new course that is starting on the 19th of this month. I feel this is the best route to go down because I would be starting from scratch when I am fully fit.

 

Here's my problem. I was signing on and signed off when I started my new job. Obviously the sickness was caused by a sandwich I ate on their premises and this made me very ill. They have phone calls of me being sick when I called to alert them of this. I am having to start a new course at a later date because of this and I wondered what the situation would be regarding my pay. I can get a doctor's line because I had to visit the doctor when I was ill and he told me it would be a while before I felt really well again!!!

 

Do you think that I should be paid for the time I have to wait until the next course starts? I dont want to rock the boat because I really want this job but it seems unfair that this was caused by a sandwich I ate on their premises and I am probably not going to get paid because of the illness. What do you think? They are being really nice about this but being really nice about it isnt going to pay my rent at the end of the month. I'm really worried about this. Any help would be gratefully received.

 

Thanks

Gemspan

[GlasweJen]

Technically you'll still be employed by them, you're just off sick so you could ask to be paid sick pay either through the companies own scheme or the governments statutory sick pay.....I think. I'll check up on this and repost if no one else knows?

[Jeanjaquessmoothie]

You will be entitled to sick pay under Government SSP scheme, as a minimum.

[gemspan]

I've heard back from them today. They can fit me in on a training course starting next Monday - but I dont have to go in until Wednesday. They have told me that I will require to take the time from now until then as unpaid leave. I have decided to swallow this because I am new and dont want to cause any problems for myself in the future.

 

However, what everyone seems to be overlooking is the fact that I bought a sandwich from a machine on their premises; I was violently sick all night and spent the next 4 days in bed; I ended up having to go to the doctor almost a week later because I was still feeling sick and not able to eat and got medication from him. I now dont feel sick but have cold sores around my mouth, ulcers in my mouth and my body is breaking out in spots, obviously due to the toxins. I had my first hot piece of food last Friday - over a week after I ate the offending sandwich and I am still having stomach upsets although not being sick. Nobody has checked the machine, nor has this been reported to anybody. I'd just like to add that this is a health authority we are taking about here.

 

As I've said before, I dont want to rock the boat but had I not eaten that sandwich I would have been able to finish my training and be working full-time with my shift allowance in 2 weeks. Now, I have to take a week and a half unpaid leave and start my training from scratch. It just seems so unfair that nobody has recognised that this all came about because of a sandwich that I bought while at work!!!

 

As you can imagine, I am feeling a bit choked about the whole thing and feel as if there is nothing that I can do.

 

Gemspan

[Weird Al Yankovic]

Do you have proof it was the sandwich that made you ill?

[GlasweJen]

Also vending machines tend to be hired from and stocked by outside companies so it may not be your company at fault. Write a letter to the owner of the machine (it should say this on a sticker near where you put your money in).