walton v rbos

[Sparkie1723]

Not when they change overdrafts into loans without the customers knowledge and then apply O/D rate of interest quarterly as they have done and are still doing, all this is carried on in CMS Telford by Router Accounts and its systems ...these accounts are run by TWO differnt computer programs completely separate from each other...then they are allocated TWO different book debts.............very intricate " Creative Accounting.

 

This is what the Chief of Manufacturing RBS Mr Richard Hemsley has said in a letter to me as I continue to investigate these Router Accounts ( as I had one account with TWO book debts......Not worried about my name showing the RBS know who I am and where I live and what I had for breakfast this morning:D

 

Quote Mr Hemsley

 

"Mr Grace should be reminded not to continue to ask members of the Bank's staff who will have no knowledge of router numbers to provide an explanation to him".

 

They were intended to be kept "SECRET" even from their own staff.

sparkie

[bedlington83]

Given the amount of evidence of what RBS has been up to, is it time to have a sticky thread for victims to post their details to with a view to a class action? (I would suggest getting the FSA involved but there's no way they be allowed to undermine the banking system by finding prima facie fraud at the heart of one of the major, government owned, banks)

[Sparkie1723]

Hi bedlington83.

 

You my friend have hit the nail right on the head..........even my MP who has been with me for over 3 years is now backing off "slightly" and has said

I have to decide what steps to take next on my own.............but he would like to be advised.

 

sparkie

[Debtcontrol]

Given the amount of evidence of what RBS has been up to, is it time to have a sticky thread for victims to post their details to with a view to a class action? (I would suggest getting the FSA involved but there's no way they be allowed to undermine the banking system by finding prima facie fraud at the heart of one of the major, government owned, banks)

 

Once I get my SAR fufilled I will hopefully have more evidence.

I will be taking mine all of the way, they are not doing this to me, they picked the wrong guy here.

[Sparkie1723]

Once I get my SAR fufilled I will hopefully have more evidence.

I will be taking mine all of the way, they are not doing this to me, they picked the wrong guy here.

 

 

Be ready for a very long hard scrap matey :DI have been at them for 6 years....non stop....getting there now....but it's been hard VERY hard.

 

sparkie

[Debtcontrol]

Be ready for a very long hard scrap matey :DI have been at them for 6 years....non stop....getting there now....but it's been hard VERY hard.

 

sparkie

 

Thanks - I am prepared for a battle, if you have anything that may assist me - case law, actions they tried, what to look out for, what I should be and shouldn't be doing etc. etc. I would be very grateful if you could share it - PM if you like.

[Sparkie1723]

Thanks - I am prepared for a battle, if you have anything that may assist me - case law, actions they tried, what to look out for, what I should be and shouldn't be doing etc. etc. I would be very grateful if you could share it - PM if you like.

 

 

Most certainly.... any help I can give is at hand ....wait for your SAR docs then we can see what they have/are doing.

 

sparkie

[rickyd]

the deliquent bank manager was called Donald Mackenzie from Edinburgh who got 10 years in Saughton prison around June last year. Some of the loans were totally ficticious, others were made on soft terms to help new businesses out. Part of his [problem] was to turn overdrafts into loans thereby inflating his sales results without actually lending any more money.

 

The bank maintain he made several million out of his deals but there were no visible signs of his increased wealth and this lead many to believe that the money hadn't been stolen at all, but that he was a scapegoat and a convenient way to shift dodgy numbers of someone else's desk.

Bedlington83/sparkie1723 if you feel there is real evidence of fraud and you're worried that the FSA won't act why not take it to the press?

 

Given recent events there must be plenty of journalists prepared to give the banks a kicking, how about the boys at the Telegraph who waded into the MP expenses row - they seem pretty fearless? Or Robert Peston - he hasn't had a good word about RBS/Lloyds all year and Vince Cable would certainly raise it the commons?

 

I worry that you may be taking on the big boys in their own back yard here and whilst it's laudable and valiant to fight for your rights, you are dealing with multi billion pound businesses here with government backing - its not the same as Erin Brockovich V Pacific Gas and Electric

[Debtcontrol]

Most certainly.... any help I can give is at hand ....wait for your SAR docs then we can see what they have/are doing.

 

sparkie

 

Thanks Sparkie, I will certainly be in touch.

 

I SAR them on 27/06/09, so a little time to go yet!!

[natalie]

Link to the Mackenzie case

 

2004: Bank's manager of the year. 2006: Guilty of £21m bank fraud - Times Online

[rickyd]

This is an extract from the general terms and conditionas applying to accounts at RBS. I've highlighted the bits that may be relevant here but there may be more under specific conditions.

 

6.6.3 You will also be responsible for paying any costs reasonably incurred by us in connection with your overdraft. These will include (but will not be limited to) costs of:

(a) communicating with you; and

(b) preserving, taking, enforcing and/or realising any security; and

© taking steps, including court action, to obtain payment.

6.6.4 We may debit your account with any interest, fees, charges or other costs, even if this results in or increases an unarranged overdraft. If an unarranged overdraft arises in this way, we will not charge a Paid Referral Fee under General Condition 6.3.2 but we may apply charges and interest under General Condition 6.3.5.

6.6.5 We will not charge interest under General Condition 6.3.5(b) or 6.6.2 on any part of an overdrawn balance which represents:

(a) a Default Notice Fee or other sum (apart from interest) which is payable by you in connection with a breach of your obligations under your agreement with us; or

(b) a Maintenance Charge, Paid Referral Fee, Guaranteed Card Payment Fee or Unpaid Item Fee.

6.6.6 If your account is overdrawn, any money credited to it will be applied in the following order:

(a) in repaying or reducing any part of the overdraft which represents a sum mentioned in General Condition 6.6.5;

(b) in repaying or reducing the rest of the overdraft.

6.7 Conditions for your overdraft

6.7.1 The Conditions of an overdraft will not be affected in any way by the account on which we have made the overdraft available being:

(a) allocated another account number by us; or

(b) transferred to another of our branches, offices or departments.

7 CLOSING OR CONVERTING YOUR ACCOUNT

7.1 Closure by us

7.1.1 We can close your account immediately if:

(a) we reasonably suspect that you have given us false information; or

(b) we reasonably suspect that your account is being used for an illegal purpose; or

© you behave in a threatening or violent manner towards our staff; or

(d) you were not entitled to open your account.

7.1.2 We can also close your account on giving you not less than:

(a) 30 days’ prior notice; or

(b) such period of notice as you would have to give us in order to close your account (or to close it without paying a charge or suffering a loss of interest), whichever is longer.

7.1.3 If you have an account of fixed duration (such as a bond), we can only close your account under General Condition 7.1.1.

7.2 Closure by you

7.2.1 You can close your account at any time for any reason without charge, and we will forward any existing credit balance on your account to you, provided that:

(a) you inform us in writing that you wish to close your account; and

(b) you return all (unused) cheques and cards issued on your account with any cards cut once through the magnetic strip and once through the chip; and © you repay any money you owe to us, including the amount of any cheques, card transactions or other payment instructions you have made and any charges or interest incurred which we have not taken out of your account; and

(d) the Account Specific Conditions for your account permit you to do so; and

(e) you inform all third parties with whom you have arranged Direct Debits and Standing Orders of the closure of your account.

7.3 Conversion by us

7.3.1 If your account is a current account, you agree that we may convert it to another current account in our range of accounts. We will only do this if:

(a) we have a valid reason for converting your account; and

(b) we notify you personally not less than 30 days before we convert it.

We will convert your account after the expiry of our notice unless in the meantime you have informed us in writing that you wish to close your existing account under General Condition 7.2.1. For a period of 30 days from the date on which we convert your account, you may close the account (or switch to any other account which we are willing to provide to you) without loss of interest or any additional charges.

8 LIABILITY

8.1 Your liability

8.1.1 You are responsible for payment of any debt that arises on your account.

8.1.2 If you have a joint account, you will each be responsible for any money owing on your account, both individually and jointly. This means that if one of you is unable to repay the money owing, the other account holder(s) can be required to pay the amount due in full, even if your relationship has changed or ended.

 

I get the sense that there is room for interpretation in here, but so far i haven't been able to locate the conditions pertaining to accounts under the control of CMS or Recovery, where I am certan we'll find that they are perfectly within their rights to open routers or other accounts as part of their internal recovery procedures. The key point seems to be where someone has broken the agreement and thereafter, the normal rules cease to apply.

 

Mr Hemsley's comment about branch staff knowing nothing about routers is correct in exactly the same way that branch staff no little or nothing about contracts for difference and spread betting - they have nothing to do with them. You can be certain that Deloitte and Touche LLP will know about them though. As the bank's auditors they will need to know precisely how much wealth is tied up in debtors accounts, they are not secret a/cs they are internal accounts and as such have no visible branch prescence, just like Fred Goodwin's entertainment expenses account.

[rickyd]

Re Mackenzie - do you think he's got £21 million hidden away anywhere?

 

I have friends who work in RBS in Edinburgh who feel unanimously that he's a scapegoat for more senior managers who needed things "tidied up". I think there's probably some truth in this otherwise he would have been found out far sooner. As they have internal audits at least twice year, somebody must have been covering things up higher in the food chain.

[Debtcontrol]

This is an extract from the general terms and conditionas applying to accounts at RBS. I've highlighted the bits that may be relevant here but there may be more under specific conditions.

 

6.6.3 You will also be responsible for paying any costs reasonably incurred by us in connection with your overdraft. These will include (but will not be limited to) costs of:

(a) communicating with you; and

(b) preserving, taking, enforcing and/or realising any security; and

© taking steps, including court action, to obtain payment.

6.6.4 We may debit your account with any interest, fees, charges or other costs, even if this results in or increases an unarranged overdraft. If an unarranged overdraft arises in this way, we will not charge a Paid Referral Fee under General Condition 6.3.2 but we may apply charges and interest under General Condition 6.3.5.

6.6.5 We will not charge interest under General Condition 6.3.5(b) or 6.6.2 on any part of an overdrawn balance which represents:

(a) a Default Notice Fee or other sum (apart from interest) which is payable by you in connection with a breach of your obligations under your agreement with us; or

(b) a Maintenance Charge, Paid Referral Fee, Guaranteed Card Payment Fee or Unpaid Item Fee.

6.6.6 If your account is overdrawn, any money credited to it will be applied in the following order:

(a) in repaying or reducing any part of the overdraft which represents a sum mentioned in General Condition 6.6.5;

(b) in repaying or reducing the rest of the overdraft.

6.7 Conditions for your overdraft

6.7.1 The Conditions of an overdraft will not be affected in any way by the account on which we have made the overdraft available being:

(a) allocated another account number by us; or

(b) transferred to another of our branches, offices or departments.

7 CLOSING OR CONVERTING YOUR ACCOUNT

7.1 Closure by us

7.1.1 We can close your account immediately if:

(a) we reasonably suspect that you have given us false information; or

(b) we reasonably suspect that your account is being used for an illegal purpose; or

© you behave in a threatening or violent manner towards our staff; or

(d) you were not entitled to open your account.

7.1.2 We can also close your account on giving you not less than:

(a) 30 days’ prior notice; or

(b) such period of notice as you would have to give us in order to close your account (or to close it without paying a charge or suffering a loss of interest), whichever is longer.

7.1.3 If you have an account of fixed duration (such as a bond), we can only close your account under General Condition 7.1.1.

7.2 Closure by you

7.2.1 You can close your account at any time for any reason without charge, and we will forward any existing credit balance on your account to you, provided that:

(a) you inform us in writing that you wish to close your account; and

(b) you return all (unused) cheques and cards issued on your account with any cards cut once through the magnetic strip and once through the chip; and © you repay any money you owe to us, including the amount of any cheques, card transactions or other payment instructions you have made and any charges or interest incurred which we have not taken out of your account; and

(d) the Account Specific Conditions for your account permit you to do so; and

(e) you inform all third parties with whom you have arranged Direct Debits and Standing Orders of the closure of your account.

7.3 Conversion by us

7.3.1 If your account is a current account, you agree that we may convert it to another current account in our range of accounts. We will only do this if:

(a) we have a valid reason for converting your account; and

(b) we notify you personally not less than 30 days before we convert it.

We will convert your account after the expiry of our notice unless in the meantime you have informed us in writing that you wish to close your existing account under General Condition 7.2.1. For a period of 30 days from the date on which we convert your account, you may close the account (or switch to any other account which we are willing to provide to you) without loss of interest or any additional charges.

8 LIABILITY

8.1 Your liability

8.1.1 You are responsible for payment of any debt that arises on your account.

8.1.2 If you have a joint account, you will each be responsible for any money owing on your account, both individually and jointly. This means that if one of you is unable to repay the money owing, the other account holder(s) can be required to pay the amount due in full, even if your relationship has changed or ended.

 

I get the sense that there is room for interpretation in here, but so far i haven't been able to locate the conditions pertaining to accounts under the control of CMS or Recovery, where I am certan we'll find that they are perfectly within their rights to open routers or other accounts as part of their internal recovery procedures. The key point seems to be where someone has broken the agreement and thereafter, the normal rules cease to apply.

 

Mr Hemsley's comment about branch staff knowing nothing about routers is correct in exactly the same way that branch staff no little or nothing about contracts for difference and spread betting - they have nothing to do with them. You can be certain that Deloitte and Touche LLP will know about them though. As the bank's auditors they will need to know precisely how much wealth is tied up in debtors accounts, they are not secret a/cs they are internal accounts and as such have no visible branch prescence, just like Fred Goodwin's entertainment expenses account.

 

Thats fair do's, I can go along with being allocated another account number......

BUT

Converting my O/draft or CC into a loan @ 20% APR without my knowledge or consent?

Thats not cricket.

 

7.3 touches on converting accounts, but not turning an O/draft into a loan.

[Dipply75]

7.1 Closure by us

7.1.1 We can close your account immediately if:

(a) we reasonably suspect that you have given us false information; or

(b) we reasonably suspect that your account is being used for an illegal purpose; or

© you behave in a threatening or violent manner towards our staff; or

(d) you were not entitled to open your account.

7.1.2 We can also close your account on giving you not less than:

(a) 30 days’ prior notice; or

(b) such period of notice as you would have to give us in order to close your account (or to close it without paying a charge or suffering a loss of interest), whichever is longer.

 

V interesting. As my loan has (apparently) defualted they are sending all my a/c's to recoveries and I cannot use them anymore..ie closed. But they certainly did not give me 30 days prior notice!

[paulwlton]

Thats fair do's, I can go along with being allocated another account number......

BUT

Converting my O/draft or CC into a loan @ 20% APR without my knowledge or consent?

Thats not cricket.

 

7.3 touches on converting accounts, but not turning an O/draft into a loan.

 

I suggest you purchase the Guardian on Saturday.

 

20% APR that is intersting.

 

PW

Edited July 23, 2009 by paulwlton

[Dipply75]

Hello,

 

Sorry to hijack this thread, but what you have just described has happened to me. They have either taken an overdraft or CC debt (I really cant remember - it was in 2003, have SAR them though) and put it into a loan account without my consent or knowledge.

My thread is here -

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/205940-debtcontrol-rbs-cc-capquest.html

 

What can I do - I am now being chased by Capquest for a debt I honestly knew nothing about.

 

Capquest have this a/c! Have RBS actually sold one of these dodgy a/c's to a DCA

 

Thats what has really grabbed me about yours is that if this is one of those INTERNAL router a/c's then how are you being chased by an EXTERNAL dca like Capquest?!!!

[rickyd]

I agree and will keep looking. If they have this many conditions about ordinary accounts, I reckon there must be more somewhere about what happens in default cases.

 

The 20% APR figure is alarming but it has to be said it is actually less than their published unauthorised overdraft rate at 29.84% As the loan would not get regular "maintenance charges" (£28/month) added so they could argue that they were helping (sic)

[paulwlton]

I agree and will keep looking. If they have this many conditions about ordinary accounts, I reckon there must be more somewhere about what happens in default cases.

 

The 20% APR figure is alarming but it has to be said it is actually less than their published unauthorised overdraft rate at 29.84% As the loan would not get regular "maintenance charges" (£28/month) added so they could argue that they were helping (sic)

 

Depends on the terms and conditions of the loan and how they apply the arrears interest. I would also add that employees/branch managers accrue bonus points for selling loans to customers therefore, it seems beneficial to turn an overdraft into a loan or an existing loan into a different type of loan.

Edited July 23, 2009 by paulwlton

[JonCris]

Link to the Mackenzie case

 

2004: Bank's manager of the year. 2006: Guilty of £21m bank fraud - Times Online

 

Perhaps this link should be sent to the MP's

[yourbank]

Depends on the terms and conditions of the loan and how they apply the arrears interest. I would also add that employees/branch managers accrue bonus points for selling loans to customers therefore, it seems beneficial to turn an overdraft into a loan or an existing loan into a different type of loan.

Depends on the amount of the loan Paul, and whether there is a consolidation and even the period of time in which it occurred(remember there was PPI at one time which doubled the points you got from the loan itself).

Plus, not all branches got bonuses and not all the bonuses are sales related either.

[paulwlton]

Depends on the amount of the loan Paul, and whether there is a consolidation and even the period of time in which it occurred(remember there was PPI at one time which doubled the points you got from the loan itself).

Plus, not all branches got bonuses and not all the bonuses are sales related either.

 

As you'll know a loan with front loaded interest doesn't accrue interest whilst in default/arrears under the CCA 1974, so the bank would only be entitled to the interest stated under the agreement. However, if the bank deftly rebated the interest on default and set up the principle under the terms of a different "type" of loan then this would appear on paper that the customer has refinanced and boy would they get shafted ten years down the line as the new "type" of loan would have accrued an astonishing amount of interest whilst the account was in arrears.....Would this kind of practice benefit a bank?

 

 

 

Paul

[rickyd]

I agree with yourbank, from what I understand there would need to be an increase in lending to accrue points, otherwise everyone would be on a bonus just by recycling loans. I'm also pretty confident that once accounts leave branch control there are no rewards available for future sales. I do know that debt recovery teams get bonuses on the amount they recover above a pre-dermined level which seems entirely logical.

 

Most of the guys I know tell me that the daysof quick points have long gone and RBS for certain now uses "clawback" where points are deducted for sales that don't stick. It was the same at Eagle Star when I worked there years ago. Far better to stay inside the rules and sell a small policy than force a bigger sale and risk losing the lot. If you had been paid a bonus earned over several months and the related policies were cancelled, all the bonus was taken back in one go!

[Debtcontrol]

Capquest have this a/c! Have RBS actually sold one of these dodgy a/c's to a DCA

 

Thats what has really grabbed me about yours is that if this is one of those INTERNAL router a/c's then how are you being chased by an EXTERNAL dca like Capquest?!!!

 

That is certainly the case.

 

What is even more interesting, is that it looks like Capquest are chasing me for this + an overdraft debt of £400 - crazy

[rickyd]

dipply75 as expected there's a condition to cover this -

 

6.5.2 If we have a valid reason for doing so, we may give you personal notice withdrawing your right to overdraw your account, or demanding repayment of your overdraft, or both. Our notice will normally take effect after a period of not less than 30 days, but it may take effect

immediately if:

(a) you have broken any term of the contract between you and us; or

(b) we have reasonable grounds to suspect fraudulent activity; or

© as a result of the way you operate your account or of your financial circumstances, we have reasonable grounds to believe that you may have difficulty in meeting your commitments.

 

If we demand repayment of your overdraft, you must immediately stop making withdrawals or payments of any kind on your account and must repay the full amount of your overdraft as soon as our notice takes effect.

 

They could reasonably argue that they've transferred your accounts to recoveries to pevent you making withdrawals and that they are not closed, merely moved to another department. The loan could be shown to have been created to improve your situation by reducing costs so they wouldn't need your agreement to do this. Its like "we lent you money at XX% but as you can't afford that we've moved it to another account at X% which is a lower rate".

 

Your obligation towards the debt hasn't changed, its just the format the lending now takes. Under the CCA there is a requirement to follow a formal arrears process which can't happen with an overdraft per se as they don't have defined repayments, only expiry dates. One they have expired,they cease to exist therefore they cannot be in arrears.

 

The main "get out of jail free" card they have is that you have not conformed to the Terms and Conditions of the original account, therefore those rules don't apply.

 

I know is sucks, but you don't get to be one of the biggest banks in the world by not having these things covered.

[bedlington83]

Bedlington83/sparkie1723 if you feel there is real evidence of fraud and you're worried that the FSA won't act why not take it to the press?

 

Given recent events there must be plenty of journalists prepared to give the banks a kicking, how about the boys at the Telegraph who waded into the MP expenses row - they seem pretty fearless? Or Robert Peston - he hasn't had a good word about RBS/Lloyds all year and Vince Cable would certainly raise it the commons?

I don't have any first hand experience (at least I don't think I have - I'm still waiting for a response from RBS on CCA/DP requests). However I know, from reading stuff here, that both Sparkie and Paul have spoken to the press. The difficulty is that its quite a complex situation that isn't easy to present as an interesting news story. Having said that, Paul has indicated that there may be a story in the Guardian on Saturday.