finlander takes on the world as well as dave

[finlander]

ok lets tell you whats happening wiv me ...

 

I have decided to take on the bad guys and get sum [edited] justice in the world .

 

My story is that I that I am a laid back sort of guy and didnt really care much about the bank charges thing until recently.

last year I met the girl of my dreams bought our lovely house and we decided to get married. As you can imagine that was all a bit expensive and during the whole thing I noticed that my bank, lloyds, began getting difficult. Now between us we earn about £100,000 a year and my overdraft was for £2500. I have banked with lloyds for 25years. So I called them and asked to speak to my manager with a view to extending my overdraft. I was told that they don't have managers anymore and that the nice man on the end of the phone would help. I explained the situation and he typed it all in to the computer and the computer said 'no'. I asked why and he said he didn't know. He went away to try and arrange something and then said that the computers word was final. I said that is silly and that we earn more than enuf to service the overdraft and he agreed. He then told me that he worked there short term as he was going to college and that it was ridiculous that I couldn't extend my overdraft as his one was for £7000 and he was a student! He then said something that changed me forever. He said that the truth is probably that they want you to go over your limit so they can charge you and said it was outrageous really!!!!!

 

 

I got off the phone thought about it :? and then decided to take the [edited] to the cleaners...

so current state...

 

lloyds - £5000 - claim issued - AQ filed and SCM letter received saying lloyds has a mind to settle. letter sent back saying 'rightyho please cough up £5000'

 

abbey- £900 - court date 24/08/2007 . no other correspondence received.

2 furthur claims to file.. totalling £6000

 

barclaycard- claim acknowledged and defence filled.

 

NatWest- LBA sent - no reply as yet

 

cca and sars requests sent to credit cards

 

Royal bank of scotland

monument

alliance and liecester

mbna

morgan stanley

 

 

MY paln is to squeeze them till their pips squeak. Its not so much about the money...more about revenge..

 

I shall keep you all posted as to my progress. By the way I have had quite a bit of experience recently dealing with my new wifes claims and the harrasment she has received from the banks so if anyone needs any help PM me..

[davefirewalker]

You go for it......

 

with two of us at least taking on the world, it doesnt stand a chance

 

Dave

[finlander]

when do we attack....

[finlander]

quick question dave.... when i do or don't get my cca agreements... whats the advice. stop paying or just claim back the interest paid? as I said I'm not interested in the moral high ground just making the [edited] squeal alot and loss their illgotten gains....

[davefirewalker]

Well

 

If you dont get them after 12 WORKING days then you can inform them that you are not making any more payments! until they do supply them

 

if the ones you do get are not up to scratch then you can write to them and ask them to supply the proper docs, and in the meantime you are not making anymore payments until the proper docs are supplied

 

if they havent supplied the paperwork in one month after the intial 12 days then they have commited an offence, and the fun will start

 

Dave

[finlander]

that will do.... ok lets watch the fun... keep in touch dave may need some help..

[finlander]

ok

 

update folks...

 

havnt heard anything yet re my SARs and cca request to sainsbury's, alliance and liecester and monument. Morgan stanley sent me a very laughable printout of a CCA signed by them the day before I got it???? no very good I think but I understand this is normal for them. I wrote back and asked them for the original again and am still waiting.

 

RBOS ... now here it gets a little interesting... They sent me an application form with no prescribed terms. I wrote back and asked for the original signed agreement. They then sent me back another copy of the application form and a nice (no seriously) request that I pay them the arrears on the account. Now I only havn't paid them because the CCa hadn't arrived. The main thing is the nice request was a bit overshadowed by the fact that a day before it arrived a letter from Triton DCA arrived being very menacing:o . So I thought about it:-? got and with the help of several letters on here cobbled together this reply.........

 

 

Dear Elizabeth,

 

Re ; CARD NUMBER XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.

 

 

Thank you for your letter dated 24th July 2007 in response to the queries I had about my earlier request made under section 77 of the consumer credit act.

 

I must say that I am grateful for your concern regarding any upset that your company may have caused me. I would have been a bit more convinced of the sincerity of those comments if a letter from Triton debt collection agency had not preceded yours. This letter is attached.

 

It is dated the 23rd July, one day before yours. As you can see by the tone of their letter Triton do not seem in the least concerned in upsetting me. Curious that.

 

As I stated in my last letter I have always thought that the relationship between your company and myself has been agreeable. You can understand therefore why this quick referral to a debt collection agency has annoyed me somewhat.

 

After receiving Tritons letter I have taken legal advice and, after consideration of that advice and your actions , can see no reason not to follow it.

 

In my letter of 27th June 2007 I made a formal request for a copy of the signed, executed credit agreement for the above numbered account under section 77(1) and section 78(1) of the Consumer Credit Act. In addition a statement of my account should have been sent along with any other document mentioned in the credit agreement.

 

The Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for this request to be carried out before your company enter into a default situation. If the request is not satisfied after a further 30 calendar days, Your Company commits an offence.

 

 

 

You still have not supplied the information requested in the consumer credit act request and therefore are in default.

 

 

The request is for post contractual information as regulated by section 180 of the act contained within Statutory Instruments 1983/1557 , which reads:

 

General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

3.-(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall be a true copy thereof.

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations there under as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

 

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

As you can see the only omission allowed by this regulation is the signature box of the Debtor/ Hire all other aspects of form and content including cancellation terms are require in order to fill the requirements’ of a true copy.

I also find it hard to understand why you are unwilling to sign the document if it is as you say a true copy. However this is also a requirement.

 

Regarding the enforceability issue due to incorrect pre-contractual form and content:

 

As per section 127(3) of the act the minimum requirement for a court to consider enforcing a agreement of this type is that it should have the Debtor/ Hirer’s signature and all the prescribed terms contained in Statutory instruments 1983/1553 Schedule 6; As directed by section 60 of the Act

• Amount of credit • Credit limit• Rate of interest • Repayments If any of these items are missing then a court cannot enforce any agreement made and regulated by the Act prior to April 6th 2007.The absence of all other aspects of the agreement relating to form and content as defined in the remaining Agreement Regulations render the contract enforceable only by leave of the court.

 

I understand that you may have your own views on what is an ‘executed’ agreement but I refer you to the copy of the text of a letter sent to a Mr Peter Bardsley by the DTI regarding this subject(see attached).

 

What you have sent me is an application form that is not a ‘executed’ agreement and is lacking the prescribed terms.

 

As you are now in default I have been advised by my solicitor to instruct you of the following

 

Ø I do not acknowledge any debt owed to your company

Ø Any default notices or adverse comments your company has recorded on my credit reference file should be immediately removed.

 

 

As you are no doubt aware subsection (6) of the act states:

 

If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

 

(a) He is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and

(b) If the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

Therefore as this account has become unenforceable at law and it is now my intention to refer this matter to the enforcement authorities.

 

The sale of the ‘alleged’ debt to any debt collection agency or any attempt to enforce without the original signed copy being sent to me will be logged with a view to a civil action for harassment against you and your agents.

 

 

Attached to this letter is a copy of The Protection From Harassment Act for your information and perusal.

 

I remind you that you are in now in default and any interest and penalty charges that are added to this account during this period will be void .

 

 

 

I am sorry that it has come to this but your speed in referring me to Triton has made me concerned at your motives and with no ‘executed’ agreement my rights are wide open to abuse.

 

I await your rapid response,

 

 

 

 

......................So its in the post tomorrow lets sit back and watch the fireworks

 

[finlander]

ok whilst i wait for the explosion from morgan stanley and rbos.. lets rattle a few more cages...

 

I am currently after abbey, lloyds, natwest, barclaycard and barclays for my penalty charges... however three claims are with the FOS so will be suspended.

 

Now abbey , lloyds and barclaycard are all going to court. I expect a stay to be granted but have a application ready to ask for it to be lifted.

 

Abbey have however been the worst so far and are due in court on the 24/08.

 

They have constantly harrassed me and my wife, closing accounts, constantly calling, threatening with defaults etc:o .. so today I am going to send them this and then go for the harrasment act in court. Well its something to do while we wait for the OFT to do their bit

 

.#########################

Abbey

Debt management operations

201 Grafton Gate East

Milton Keynes

MK9 1AN

Dear Sir / Madam,

Re: Claim Number XXXXXXX in XXXXXX County Court

Account number XXXXXXXX

I write regarding the above account and your recent correspondence regarding placing a default notice on my account.

I would request you supply me with a complete list of transactions and charges relating to the three accounts registered at the above address in both my name and my wife’s, Mrs XXXXXXX , since the date of opening. Alternatively a complete set of statements for that period will be acceptable. Furthermore please provide me with a true copy of the executed agreement with you, and a copy of my original terms and conditions. I make these requests Under the Data Protection Act 1984 and 1998, and including the right of subject access under this act.

Additionally where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any member of your staff or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my business with you.

If you are unable to supply data relating to manual intervention because there has been no such manual intervention then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response to this request.

I further request copies of all Tran scripted logs/ audio recordings regarding telephone calls made to or from me, and any/all details regarding any disclosures made or communications with any third party in relation to my business with you, along with details of any legal action past or present between myself and your bank.

I enclose a cheque for the statutory maximum fees of 3 x £10.00 (£30), which is to be used as the fee to access ALL data held by Abbey National PLC about myself and my wife’s accounts and not credited to the above account, which is in dispute.

You should be fully aware of your statutory obligations under the data protection act and that any failure to comply with this request could result in an investigation from the Information Commissioners Office. You have 40 days in which to comply.

 

Any such submissions from yourselves, that the relevant data is now only held on Microfiche in date order and can only be provided at extra cost etc is unacceptable as it implies that such data is nonetheless retrievable. In these circumstances, as opposed to copies of statements for the microfiche period, I will accept a detailed breakdown of all charges levied to my account in date order.

After my recent unsuccessful attempts to stop the deliberate and vindictive harassment from your bank I have now sought legal advice. The above information is required as it is my intention to commence civil proceedings against your bank under the Protection From Harassment act 1997 and recover substantial damages for the duress and upset caused to my family.

I have a detailed log of incidents involving your staff. These included; -

Ø Constant threatening phone calls in an attempt to enforce an account that is in dispute and subject to court proceedings despite the entire outstanding overdraft consisting of penalty charges.

Ø Written correspondence demanding payment of said disputed overdraft and the destruction of all bank cards and chequebooks (effectively closing the disputed account).

Ø Threats of sending collection agents to our home.

Ø Inaccurate and misleading comments made by your staff.

Ø The withdrawal or ‘stopping’ of my wife’s cash machine card on her separate account despite the fact that the account was in credit to the tune of £500.

Ø Declining my wife’s joint account card after she had deposited a substantial amount of cash in the bank 10 hours before.

Ø Threatening to register our details with a default notice at a credit reference agency in order to reclaim disputed amounts.

Ø The general course of action in attempting to deprive a private citizen of his right to a court hearing by attempting to intimidate him and his family into desisting from court action.

All of the above have been a consistent course of action despite my warning you at the start of this dispute and once again on the 3rd June 2007 (letter attached) to not harass my family or myself.

I am employed as a xxxxxxxxxx investigating and prosecuting offences on a daily basis and am confident in my ability to prove your organisation and individuals guilty of this offence.

I enclose a copy of the protection from harassment act 1997and highlighted in bold the course of action I intend to follow for your information.

It is my intention to contact the national press as soon as I begin my action in the civil court.

You have 40 days to comply with the above access request and I reserve the right to begin legal action with no further correspondence.

Yours,

 

:-? oh my god! the worm has turned

[Monty2007]

Excellent! Good luck finlander, I will be following your thread. I am in a similar situation with 2 banks and several cc companies, MS/Goldfish being the one we have in common. I also got sent a blank agreement/T&C's, I have since just asked for "a photocopy of whatever I signed". They replied telling me that they will respond to my complaint within 28 days?!

[finlander]

cheers monty,

 

by the way don't give them the 28days... the 12 plus one month then stop paying..otherwise your in the penalty charge situation of ' oh look its 8 months and we still havn't found it..and your still paying'

 

make them all sweat

[12break3]

Wow ... 2 for the price of 1, this is getting better by the day, used to love ebay but since our Dave, has been taking on the world I've been a bit of a cabaholic. Dave's got off to a flying start, and here's cab-junior Finlander coming up behind!

[MikeSplicer]

Subscribing

[rogerebaker]

I like your style

[finlander]

ok...

 

 

update..very interesting discussion from a nice young man from morgan stanley.. he asked why I hadn't paid anything to them. I explained that I hadn't had a proper response to my cca request and he went.. :? hmm..

 

went away and asked a data protection bloke who told him that I had been sent everything they had.

 

so they dont have a CCA....

 

Unfortunately the cort have stayed two of my three cases. Abbey and barclaycard.. which I rang the court and they said it didn't matter if it was a credit card chelmsford where staying all case's.

 

LLoyds however have never filed their AQ so I now have a order from the court saying they have until 10th august at 4pm or their defence will be struck out. heres hoping they miss that one. its worth £5500

 

still nothing from A&L , monument or sainsbury's re cca.

[Curlyben]

Nice one Finlander.

Just showing my interest in your activities.

 

Go for the throat

[finlander]

QUICK UPDATE ******

 

well a & l (mbna) have sent through the most laughable SAR i have seen.. it consisted of two pages showing their charges. so letter off to them.. no CCa agreement yet so they are in default from this friday.

 

Morgan stanley have looked into my PPi complaint and decided that ,despite the lack of any evidence that I actually asked for it, they are in the right so they ain't giving it back. Now this is a tricky one so any advice would help. I intend to tell them to s*d off on the outstanding balance of £6000 as they havn't got a CCA just a printed off sheet they signed last week. Now if I do this then does it stop me claiming my PPI.

[Timsta]

I intend to tell them to s*d off on the outstanding balance of £6000 as they havn't got a CCA just a printed off sheet they signed last week. Now if I do this then does it stop me claiming my PPI.

 

I'm afraid so. You can only do one of the other. Either the agreement exists and you can claim against it, or it doesn't.

[finlander]

rats... ...still onward and upward...

[davefirewalker]

Mind you.....

you may be able to claim the PPI and then suddnely realise that the caa dibdnt exist then claim back all the interest as well

 

or to look at it another way.......if they dont have the cca then they have no record of you having signed for PPI. the agreement doesnt exist so why not claim all the money that they have taken from you...ie the interest AND the PPI..........or if you are feeling lucky ALL the money paid to the account.

 

I see no bar to this

 

Dave

[finlander]

dave thanks for that.. Im having a real struggle with what to do really... I am of a mind to try and get all debts cleared with a 10% settlement figure but I am concerned that I may get a default registered against me if they get stubborn. I have one default on my file from RBOS due to a recent bereavment and not being in the country to get the notice. It's the only one I ever had and I am keen to get it removed. But how is the question? RBOS cca is just an application with no prescribed terms at all. mmm... what to do what:rolleyes: to do

[davefirewalker]

dave thanks for that.. Im having a real struggle with what to do really... I am of a mind to try and get all debts cleared with a 10% settlement figure but I am concerned that I may get a default registered against me if they get stubborn. I have one default on my file from RBOS due to a recent bereavment and not being in the country to get the notice. It's the only one I ever had and I am keen to get it removed. But how is the question? RBOS cca is just an application with no prescribed terms at all. mmm... what to do what:rolleyes: to do

 

For what its worth........

 

I would go down the path of no cca then no agreement !!! give me everything back (including any PPI). They cannot register a default if they have no agreement.

 

Its a tough choice, and only yours to make, but I would certainly look into it.

 

Test the water by sending them the "i dont owe you any money whatsoever" letter and see how they react

 

seemed to work for me.....no contact with Morgan Stanley for over two months now.....I will wait until I return from hols then have a real beanfeast with them

 

 

As regards the rbos default....have you got a copy of the deafult notice.....or more to the point HAVE THEY?

 

you can get a default notice removed if it doesnt comply with the regs.....or if they can't prove they sent it.

 

there are a number of methods..... I'll post them when I can find them.

rgds

 

dave

[finlander]

that would be a great help, cheers mate:)

[finlander]

ok..update.

 

barclaycard rang and tried to threaten me... their case has been stayed but despite owing us £1000 more than we owe them they still think they have a right to bully me. So some DCA called and tried it on. was told to get lost.It does amase me that that they cant grasp the concept that if the court is dealing with this it's unreasonable to harrass people as you are in affect attempting to bypass the court. I explained I was about to sue barclaycard for harrassment and that as the DCA they were in the frame now. The woman got very indignant and said 'we arnt harrassing you' until I point out the very fact I was talking to her proved she was. She then said she would put the account on hold (again) but in 4 weeks the computer would start ringing again. I explained that computers have not yet taken over the world and that a court might not look favourably on the excuse 'the computer made me do it'.

 

call was logged and we will see if they return. (I fully expect them to.)

 

monument havnt sent any CCA through yet , nor have A/L. Both RBS and morgan stanley have had their ' I dont owe you anything till you supply a real one' letter and have gone quiet.

 

Now sainsburys!!!:o well fair enough they have supplied a very good CCA agreement. I was suprised really as I couldn't remember signing it but it is iron clad and fair dues to them. The card was taken out in 2006 so that probably explains it but be warned those who have a simular age card. THEY PROB DO HAVE ONE!. So I will be resuming payments to them until my old flat is sold and then I shall pay it off in full (this month hopefully). Thats not really a bad thing as I would like to keeep one CC for emergencies and being fair sainsburys have been quite well behaved and reasonable so they get the golden ticket!

 

Anyway let battle commence . I'm waiting for all the others with baited breath and we shall see what we shall see..........

[itsamomentintime]

He then said something that changed me forever. He said that the truth is probably that they want you to go over your limit so they can charge you and said it was outrageous really!!!!!

 

 

heres to that student !!

[finlander]

ok everybody and a quick update.

 

a/l , monumnet, rbos, morgan stanley all still very quite,

 

However a word of warning for all. I sent off for my wife barclaycard CCa dated 2001. what I got through was very good. Three black and white sheets with all her bits fille out in her handwriting and signed. Also were the terms and conditions with all the prescribed bits. Oh dear i thought.... then well..my sceptical side stepped in and I looked closer. the application , with the signature etc was a rather bad quality copy. but the terms and conditions were very good quality. The application had a leaflet code number on the top. the t&c's didn't. Then like a bolt from heaven. On the terms T&c's was a picture of a barclaycard. Very nice i thought but were my eyes decieving me or isn't that a chip and pin card? in 2001???????

 

they have deliberately tried to make a new t&c's leaflet look like part of the application form!!!! without those the application form is useless. It doesn't even refer to the t&c's!! the little devils

 

 

no money for them then.....