Cabot/hudsons claimform - old barclaycard debt

[elizabeth1]

Hi all,

 

Not sure if yesterday was a good outcome or not, I think it was but not entirely sure.

 

The solicitor for Cabot turned up and came over to shake my hand before we went in, decent enough chap really. He immediately requested a 'multi-track', the judge asked him several questions regarding the claim but he had little knowledge saying he only got the details of the case last night. He mumbled something about my defence appearing to be taken from some internet forum but the judge wasn't (quite rightly) interested in that opinion. ha ha it's was irrelevant where you got uour defence from really - but hey it's good they reading and taking notes? ha ha

 

The judge asked whether I had been sent any agreements, I told him I had received the application form for one account and some statements. He looked through the form and read the declaration near the signature '..bound by it's terms and conditions' etc.. I said that this does not represent a properly executed agreement according to CCA 1974.

 

He asked me about my defence and I told him that alleged debts are not enforceable in court. He asked who had told me that and I said again 'consumer credit act'. He seemed a bit miffed with this answer I thought and his tone changed (although) I wasn't too endeared to him at the start. He gave me a little speech along the lines of - many people are in court chasing bank account charges etc.. - he hopes I'm not running up debt and then trying to smokescreen the court, writing a clever defence etc.. as I could end up in trouble. I didn't like this at all and none of what he said was relevant to the facts of the case but he's the judge so can say what he likes can't he? Don't worry about that - Judge can't tar everyone with same brushes really - yes there will be some real rogues - but most often people have genuinely spotted a problem with paperwork that needs to be cleared up etc.. as per your case - Judge will have to work through the case with you to establish the finer points.

 

Anyway, he felt better after getting that off his chest and went on to say the following - again these are paraphrased.

 

Defendant has asked for disclosure and was entitled to such, by 16 Nov disclosure by list will be produced by claimant including legible application forms and executed agreements.

Any request for inspection to be made within 14 days of service of the list.

Witness statements of evidence by 21 Dec by both sides.

Case management by 14 Jan for 30 mins. 2 days before Claimant must file before hearing no more than 400 words of proposed further directions.

Something about a trial window was mentioned but not sure about that.

 

I was a bit disappointed really, the judge seemed quite dismissive and uninterested in the CCA and, before I argued the point, would have been happy to accept the application form as proof of debt. Don't feel like that about it you really did really well - Judge has the job of working through this case to establish the key points on each side - he too will be baffled by the issues involved and he will be aiming to give each side an opportunity to prove their case - from what you are saying here Judge is doing just that? REMEMBER This stuff is as new to the Judges as it is to us? We do need to be patient with the Judges and try see it from their side too? We need to educate the Judges with what we have found and the points we are arguiing - the clarity of argument has to come from us really.

 

So, thoughts on a postcard please!

 

Don't worry - you did OK here really, well done you got a result that the otherside have to disclose documents = they are stuffed basically unless they can prodice such documents. If they do raise such documents it then raises the questions as to WHY they'd wasted everyones time by failing to produce such documents as per your previous requests - WHY has it taken a court order to gain this documentation? Trust me jUdges won't look favourably at them disclosing such documents after a court has ordered them to do so - Judge will frown that they wasted time and costs etc.. so even if they DID produce something they've won no favours. JUDGE IS GOING TO VIEW IT THAT THEY OUGHT TO HAVE DONE THIS WITHOUT A COURT CLAIM/ORDER ETC..

 

We do have to bare in mind that the Judge will not know everything about Consumer Laws - this is a learning curve for the Judges too - so do be patient with them. You also need to keep in mind that the otherside are there to fight you off etc.. - they are going to bully, intimidate - they aren't bothered that they are wrong - they are bothered about winning and getting paid etc..and will use any opportunity to thrash and make you nervous in the court room.

 

You need to FOCUS on the positive side of what happened in your hearing and make sure you are ready to clarify to Judge exactly what your points are as to WHY their application form is unenforceable etc.. - Use a skeleton argument on the day - this will work on the day to display this case clearly to Judge. It benefits you too because you'll have a small planned argument ready to use and keep focus on the day. Your next hearing will be fine - you just need to fine tune things accordingly.

[elizabeth1]

they want to scare you. Multi-track is very expensive. the grounds they can use are, in essence, that the case is very complicated or very significent.

 

However, this claim is not very difficult, and is based on law established in statute, the house of lords, and appeal court. It really comes down to:

 

1. Do they have a properly executed agreement.

 

Which, once they provide a copy of that agreement is very simple to argue in court. if you do your research, you can argue in less than 5 minutes, via a skeleton argument.

 

I would have written such a skeleton argument, if it wasn't for the cold / flu I've had.

 

 

Tom,

Hope you feeling better now!!

 

It really bothers me that Cabot's have such a way in telling these Judges that "it's a complex case we want to go fast or multi track" - of so many cases that I have seen Cabot's don't so much as hold the CCA's - so really the argument is very simple - Cabot's don't hold any rights or obligations to collect many of these accounts.

 

YES Cabot's are going to send in locum solicitors to court to try win - but they really don't have a hope so long as we keep to the basics of these cases and impress onto the Judges that Cabot's don't hold the papers etc.. with the CCA's. So long as we keep it simple and surround the argument to be related to the basics of papers Cabot's will just have to crawl back into their Towers and pick on someone more likely to cave in?

 

It needs to be realised that Cabot's do have a lot riding on these cases - so they are going to threaten, intimidate and get nasty over threats of costs to try fend us off. They aren't going to hold their hands up and admit they are wrong and correct matters. Cabot's have got away with this stuff for years - so they are going to fight us every inch of the way.

 

But while they don't hold the basic papers they aren't going to stand a chance of winning any of us. Cabot's have been rumbled?

 

The skeleton argument is the simplest way to go on the day and it helps if we get nervous through the bullying on the day - if we are well rehearsed and KNOW our stuff we can fire back our argument and be out of court in minutes - leaving the otherside deflated

 

I still laugh over my hubbies hearing - the othersides solicitor wouldn't even shake hands at the end of the hearing - much to the amusement of the Judge & my hubby. I think we upset them a tad ? :o

[joghuj]

I hope you don't mind me saying this, but you sound like you were a little under-prepared.

 

You are quite right, I thought I was prepared enough but unless you are familiar with court proceedings, then the pace and situation can expose any weakness and that's what happened. I should have taken Tomterms advice to request attending a case beforehand but sadly I didn't.

 

Can anyone tell me if I will receive a confirmation from the court showing the court's request for disclosure etc..?

[elizabeth1]

You are quite right, I thought I was prepared enough but unless you are familiar with court proceedings, then the pace and situation can expose any weakness and that's what happened. I should have taken Tomterms advice to request attending a case beforehand but sadly I didn't.

 

Can anyone tell me if I will receive a confirmation from the court showing the court's request for disclosure etc..?

 

 

Yes Court will send you a copy of the order as made up etc..

[joghuj]

Just out of interest folks, it's been 12 days since court and I've not heard anything from anyone. Is this normal?

[Edz11]

Wouldn't bother until 17th. Then you need to see if they've sent anything to Court without giving you a list. You'll get a copy of the order soon.

[Edz11]

Pretty soon (if not already) the most important job in the credit industry will be that of the person who looks after Credit agreements.

 

And the most secure places will be where they store them. (not like Time's shed that went up in 2000 and reduced all theirs to ashes) Dab the tear from my eye...

[joghuj]

Hello again, I've had a relatively peaceful month but I've not heard anything from anyone. No disclosure of documents from Cabot or their solicitor and nothing from the court. The deadline was 4pm on the 16th, should I be contacting the court? If so, is a phone call sufficient or is a letter required?

 

On another matter, I received a letter from the ICO yesterday along the lines of -

 

'...apologise for the delay...high volume of correspondance..etc.

..You brought it to our attention that you received postal correspondance from Cabot... and a letter addressed to a third party with their details account number etc...

..This incident does appear to highlight an issue surrounding the security of personal data held by Cabot Financial (Europe) Ltd. I can assure you, that in view of the information you have provided regarding this matter, I shall now take this up as a compliance issue with the company concerned. I intend to remind them of the importance of maintaining the security and integrity of customers' personal data at all times. This case will now be closed.

[MoonHawk]

Hello again, I've had a relatively peaceful month but I've not heard anything from anyone. No disclosure of documents from Cabot or their solicitor and nothing from the court. The deadline was 4pm on the 16th, should I be contacting the court? If so, is a phone call sufficient or is a letter required?

Phone the court Monday and check if they received something late in the day by fax etc. Even though there is a deadline they allow late submissions.

 

If there is nothing logged then do a letter to the court.

 

. I intend to remind them of the importance of maintaining the security and integrity of customers' personal data at all times. This case will now be closed.

Just a slap on the wrist then. "Don't do that .. or I'll say don't do that again."

 

Best Wishes

MoonHawk

[tomterm8]

Did you recieve the court order by post? If not, I would call the court ASAP, as it sounds like someone has made a cock-up.

[joghuj]

Did you recieve the court order by post? If not, I would call the court ASAP, as it sounds like someone has made a cock-up.

 

I've received nothing at all from anyone, I'll speak to them tomorrow.

[joghuj]

Just spoken to the court and they have advised that I call back in a couple of days time as they can't tell me whether they have received the documents yet. I asked about whether 'standard disclosure' should be served to me as well as the court and they advised me to check the civil procedure rules which do state;

31.10 Procedure for standard disclosure

(1) The procedure for standard disclosure is as follows.

(2) Each party must make and serve on every other party, a list of documents in the relevant

practice form.

(3) The list must identify the documents in a convenient order and manner and as concisely as

possible.

(4) The list must indicate –

(a) those documents in respect of which the party claims a right or duty to withhold inspection;

and

(b) (i) those documents which are no longer in the party’s control; and

(ii) what has happened to those documents.

 

So, I'll ring them back on Wednesday and see what's happening.

[Theo Ccupier]

From what I have seen in this forum it looks like a waste of time reporting them to anybody. Has anybody actually had a result from the ICO or trading standards and the like?

[Rhia]

Has anybody actually had a result from the Information Commissioners Office or trading standards and the like?

 

Yes, yes and yes. ICO has upheld three cases of mne, OFT has added a complaint re Cabot to their pile, Trading Standards are turning out to be absolute stars after a very shaky start (more details to follow after court hearing) but Cabot are in for a very nasty surprise.

[djdave]

Information Commissioners Office are extremely busy but after a few months' waiting have finally got their teeth into Ashbourne Management for their Data Protection breaches regarding my gym membership.

 

OFT don't deal with individual complaints but were interested in my information about Cabot, which is probably now in the same pile as Rhia's.

 

The sad truth is that many people don't bother complaining because there's a perception that little or no action will be taken. However it's also true that little or no action is taken because so few people bother complaining! Catch 22

 

My advice is to ALWAYS report breaches of the Consumer Credit, Data Protection or Administration of Justice Acts; and to ALWAYS report breaches of OFT guidelines on debt collection.

[Theo Ccupier]

There's a lot to find out about. I need to do more reading looks like.

[Jeff2000]

From what I have seen in this forum it looks like a waste of time reporting them to anybody. Has anybody actually had a result from the Information Commissioners Office or trading standards and the like?

 

 

I've probably posted something similar to the following on a number of threads, but I think it's worth repeating:

 

No matter what your perception of bodies like Trading Standards and the Information Commissioner etc, you MUST make a complaint!

 

One sure fire way of making certain that no action will be taken and that no changes will happen in this particular industry, is if nobody ever complains!

 

You can usually complain via e-mail, so it costs nothing, so do it!!!

 

 

Best wishes, Jeff.

[joghuj]

Morning all,

 

I've just spoken to the court again and they confirmed that they've not received the standard disclosure of documents requested. She was surprised that I had not received any details about court order from them and she's sending again.

 

She was quite helpful and suggested when I receive the court order, I send them a letter requesting further directions hearing as Cabot have not complied with the courts' request for disclosure.

 

Anything else I should know at this stage?

 

Cheers

[tomterm8]

In the matter of XX vs YY

In the XX County Court

Claim number: XXXXXX

 

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

 

RE: Disclosure of relevant documents

 

With regard to this case, on XXTh a directions hearing ordered the production of certain documents, which are crucial to this case. So far, the claimant has not served these documents upon me.

 

I am very concerned that the claimant may not have had this order served upon him/ her since I never recieved a copy of this order myself, although both parties were informed of the content of the order at the directions hearing.

 

On XX I discussed this matter with Mr/Ms XXXX by phone, who was very helpful. She agreed to send me a copy of this order.

 

However, I would respectfully ask the court to consider if there are any further steps required to make the claimant aware of any order.

 

Yours Sincerly,

 

 

XXX (type name , don't sign).

[Seahorse]

Well, it certainly doesn't look as if the lesson has been learned. A number of us have had PM's about this very thing. So hardly an isolated case!!!!!

 

In light of this, I have posted a comment in my blog...

 

http://www.coveritup.co.uk/?p=127

 

On another matter, I received a letter from the Information Commissioners Office yesterday along the lines of -

 

'...apologise for the delay...high volume of correspondance..etc.

..You brought it to our attention that you received postal correspondance from Cabot... and a letter addressed to a third party with their details account number etc...

..This incident does appear to highlight an issue surrounding the security of personal data held by Cabot Financial (Europe) Ltd. I can assure you, that in view of the information you have provided regarding this matter, I shall now take this up as a compliance issue with the company concerned. I intend to remind them of the importance of maintaining the security and integrity of customers' personal data at all times. This case will now be closed.

[Rhia]

Yep I have received messages from a couple of people who this has happened to. I bet the fur is flying in Cabot Towers. In fact don't such offences actually involve custodial sentences for the body corporate and the Compliance Officer? Is that correct or am I mistaken?

[elizabeth1]

Yep I have received messages from a couple of people who this has happened to. I bet the fur is flying in Cabot Towers. In fact don't such offences actually involve custodial sentences for the body corporate and the Compliance Officer? Is that correct or am I mistaken?

 

 

Seems they never listen and learn do they?

 

These Directors at Cabot's seem to forget what a "privilage" this license is - they tend to treat it as though it's their "rights" to hold such a license.

 

It really is high time this company disolved - they clearly don't understand the complications and implications of what they are doing. They do not deserve such a privilage as in holding this license the way they are mis-treating this Data.

 

I am sure their days are numbered - it's just a matter of time before this behaviour hits the fan - it will cost them dearly.

[toolongtooshort]

Have you never thought that a secret member of the CFC has infiltrated Cabot Towers and in true Mission Impossible style managed to help bring forward the downfall of Cabot and fast track (Cabot apparently like that word) the demise of their license by accidentally getting a bit confused in where to send stuff.

[Seahorse]

HAHA. No, but the thought had crossed my mind that perhaps CABOT were trying to plant false rumours to see what reaction they got. If so, they have been very clever. Some of those who have PM'd me have been here and posting for a good long while.

 

Although the Russians liked to use sleepers, didn't they? Hmmm. Best to be careful, and not take anything as gospel. But there does seem to be a pattern though. I wonder if their envelope stuffing machine has become a CFC member?????

[toolongtooshort]

I wonder if their envelope stuffing machine has become a CFC member?????

 

Hmm I wonder too, that would be an unfortunate thing to happen in the green gardens of Kent