Lloyds "Victory" - A View of the Judgement

[doo]

rbears, great post, just what everybody needed, makes complete sense and gives us all a kick-up-the-backside to prepare properly. Thanks.

[erin01]

this is very reassuring as i am about a week into my LBA period and am about to start the court process.

Will someone who is just about to go to court PLEASE!!!! post as soon as they get a result to aleviate, us fellow lloyds claimants, our fears!

BTW, mbna just settled when i sent them the LBA so all not lost yet!

[sweetcandy]

Excellent work,you are a great support and courage for we that don't know much about interpreting the law and judgments.

 

cheers.

[rob-the-viking]

Outstanding post rbrears, I've only had a chance to quickly skim read it but have printed it off to read thoroughly when I get a chance later on tonight, waiting for a court date as we speak and this information will no doubt prove very useful.

[gaz2006]

Hi Gaz,

 

The links are in post 1 above.

 

Regards.

oops sorry must get my eyes tested regards Gaz

[LLou]

Having read the Lloyds TSB current account charges linked on this thread I have two questions:

 

1. Surely they have changed these over the past six years and therefore are we able to get a copy from them from the t's and c's that applied four, five, six years ago? Surely they should hold copies of old versions.

 

2. This is a very woolly point but on their current account charges page they state of the overdraft fee "We charge this when you go overdraft and don't have an overdraft facility, or if you go overdrawn above an agreed overdraft" - would "agreement" constitute a contract in this respect?

 

Apologies if I'm just clutching at straws!!

 

LLou

[fidz]

Great thread

in better words than i could

definatly an outstanding translation & summary

 

Ear Ear !!!!

three cheers for rbrears

hip hip horray, hip hip horray, hip hip horray!

[caro]

I think everyone needs to remember that Lloyds got lucky and won one claim. Don't forget the thousands of others that they have lost and the views of the 2 judges linked below.

 

BBC NEWS | Business | Judge attacks 'time-wasting' bank

 

BBC NEWS | Business | Judge warns 'unreasonable' banks

[daisy_bumbleroot]

What happens if you alreay sent your bundle in? i sent mine in april, (LTSB didnt of course) is it ok to send in a copy of the T&C's that rbears linked and asked for it to be appended?

[Realist]

Questions?

 

Has anyone actually talked to the claiment at all?

Whats to say the bank has noy used a fake customer to get this case through court and knowing the preperation was week they knew they would win?

 

One win out of thousands of claims, keep on going.

[Marconi]

I have T&C for Lloyds TSB Gold Service Current Account Card

The date must be pre1999 asThere is a statement "On 28 June 1999 Lloyds Bank Plc will change its name to Lloyds TSB Bank plc

 

I can fax a copy to anybody who may want it as I don't know how to scan it in and post it here.........unless someone can pm me and help

[thinkfirst]

Rbrears - Thank you. Feeling better already. So clear, concise and encouraging.

Wayne - Excellent idea re Ts&Cs library. Will see what I've got on file for different banks. But won't know how to 'add' them to the collection as bit of a Luddite (but able to follow instructions if someone tells me what to do )

[tommyhduk]

I am glad i read this i will now go forward with my claim. A good idea would be for everyone to copy the Terms and conditions provided to them by banks and to scan them and use the site to supply terms and conditions relating to specific dates ( T & C change periodically and i am sure banks will start to pull cases apart stating that the wrong T & C have been supplied for the period of the claim) If anyone has any suggestions regarding distribution of these i am willing to scan mine and make them avilable please get back to me.

[WayneBrannan]

Rbrears - Thank you. Feeling better already. So clear, concise and encouraging.

Wayne - Excellent idea re Ts&Cs library. Will see what I've got on file for different banks. But won't know how to 'add' them to the collection as bit of a Luddite (but able to follow instructions if someone tells me what to do )

 

 

 

I'm afraid, with my limited IT knowledge, that's all it was - an idea! I've no idea whatsoever how to implement it...

 

Re: comments from tommyhd - I think what we'd have to do is make sure the file for each T&C link was clearly labelled as to the following:

1. Bank

2. Account type (ie. Personal or Business)

3. Time period (to the exact day if possible) of release & expiration

For example: hsbc_pers_01-09-98to01-10-02

Again, might be laughed out of town by the mods as it might be completely impossible!!

If it was possible, people could double check the dates and between us we could ensure the downloads are accurate enough not to be challenged as the wrong T&Cs by a prudent defence.

[tommyhduk]

i have a program that converts word to pda and visa versa but i would need help on implimenting this onto the site for downloads. It does look like it may be an important part of the claims lets face it how many people keep all those daft leaflets they get from the bank? i know ive thrown out a few in my time.

[livelylad]

An excellent post well done.

[HSBCrusher]

Please use the link in my signature to send in your T&Cs, I will add a snail mail address for those without scanners soon.

[ninekey]

I agree with all that rbrears says but the attack on the service / 'no breach' defence needs to be more pointed, in my view. The Judge's 'no prohibition' analysis seems quite well reasoned: quite difficult to dent, I think, where a borrower's notional or automatic requests to extend borrowing are considered by the Bank and then approved. It is certainly arguable that - as the Judge ruled - this sequence of events can take place without either party breaking the contract, strictly speaking.

 

So, if these events do not amount to a breach of contract, they must amount to charges for services rendered? Erm no ...

 

For me, the reasoning falls down in relation to unpaid item charges. Where, say, a DD request is presented for payment, but declined, there can be no element of 'service' to the customer in that. The essence of 'service' (and the justification for a charge) is that the customer derives some benefit from the work undertaken by the Bank. Presumably, the Bank and this District Judge take the view that there is an element of service merely in the Bank being asked and in considering (albeit ultimately declining) such a request! Pah!

 

I do wonder if, on legal authorities, there can be any middle ground between an out and out breach of contract on the one hand and a provision of service (to the customer) on the other?

 

Any thoughts?

 

I also find it remarkable that this District Judge took it upon himself to undertake an 'examining magistrate' role to the extent he did. What's more:

 

1. Judges 'hunting on the internet' for evidence must be unprecedented;

 

2. The underlying legal principles aside, I am at a loss as to why the Bank's failure to appear was treated so casually. Most District Judges would regard such high-handedness as a hanging offence.

[african_igbo]

Hi tommyhduk I am very interested depending on what bank/s So if Barclays Please email me and I will provide my web email account if thats ok with you.

Cheers

[Curlyben]

We won't charge a fee for setting up an overdraft.

I love this part from their own T&C.

Well if that's the case how can they justify that these "charges"are for a service, basically extending your overdraft

[Lord_Alcohol]

For me, the reasoning falls down in relation to unpaid item charges. Where, say, a DD request is presented for payment, but declined, there can be no element of 'service' to the customer in that. The essence of 'service' (and the justification for a charge) is that the customer derives some benefit from the work undertaken by the Bank. Presumably, the Bank and this District Judge take the view that there is an element of service merely in the Bank being asked and in considering (albeit ultimately declining) such a request! Pah!

 

I do wonder if, on legal authorities, there can be any middle ground between an out and out breach of contract on the one hand and a provision of service (to the customer) on the other?

 

ninekey - that's a really good point. I'm not a Lloyds claimant but this thread is applicable to all banks I would think. Hope no-one minds a NatWest customer making a contribution...

 

As you say, the banks are now apparently deeming that the charges are not penalties for breach of contract but are, in fact, "charges for services". However, as you so very succinctly put it, there is no concept of a 'service' being provided to the customer: when an item attracts a charge, there can be no doubt that it is not a service for the benefit of the customer or the payee because the item was not paid so there was no benefit at all. Furthermore, a charge is levied which may also incur overdraft interest. This is definately not a service and I would like to see the banks argue that it is.

 

If we go overdrawn because an item has not been paid, we get a letter or phone call from the bank telling us, or certainly implying, that this is bad behaviour and we need to "put things right". Putting things right might be through arranging an overdraft, but at the end of the day it is still a position which causes the bank to react in a a negative way and I would argue that they would not do this if the charge for an unpaid item was deemed a service. If it was a service then they would not get so snotty when it happens.

 

If we then consider what happens if the charge remains unpaid (ie, the account remains overdrawn for the amount of the charge) for a given period with no effort to repay by the account holder: the bank will, inevitably, serve a Default Notice which is triggered by a breach of contract (I think). So at some stage the charge has magically been transformed from a service fee to a breach of contract.

 

I wonder whether Kev should have answered "yes" to the Judge's question as to whether he thought non-payment of a cheque some considerable time after issue was a breach of contract?

 

LA

[muggyno1]

Thanks rbrears, that's really useful. Sorry it has taken me a while to respond.

 

Muggy

[mumof4by1996]

Thanks for this reassuring update, however I am abit confused about para 17, is the Judge saying that he has noe evidence that the banks use this term fortheir fees/ or is he saying that the banks do not use this term in their T&Cs? IS taking bank statements to court as part of evidence going to help in any way?

[Hartanii]

Hi I dont understand? are you trying to download T&c. I tried it didnt work but I highlighted it copied and and pasted it into an e-mail to myself. I justed printed it out. Dont know if that helped

[nobodys fool]

I would suggest it might be worth getting copies of all terms and conditions ASAP before the banks get there legal teams, working off the back of the judgement and amending them.