Help With Speeding Please!!!

[patdavies]

It is dangerous to speed which is why there are speed limits in place.

You have merely restated that speeding is dangerous - you failed to say why it is dangerous.

 

I presume that you are a believer in the fatuous government statement that speed kills.

[patdavies]

just out of curiosity, can anyone confirm or deny regards the 10% plus 1 rule that used to apply. i believe this is in connection to when your vehicle is new and your speedo is calibrated, then everything is correct, but after so many miles, your tyres deteriorate and therefore your speedo isnt technically correct.

 

ACPO (Association of Chief Police Officers) guidance for prosecution is 10% + 2.

 

Even on a brand new vehicle, the speedometer is only required

 

1) under original C&U regulations to be accurate to with +/- 10% at 30 mph, and

2) under later EU law not under read at any speed.

 

Because of (2) manufacturers build in an over read to protect themselves from prosecution.

 

A speedometer works from the rotation of the output shaft of the gearbox. It can never work at the wheels, because unless the vehicle is travelling in a steady state in a completely straight line, the wheels are all moving at different speeds. Thus tyre wear/changes will alter the relationship between indicated and real speed.

[Esio Trot]

You have merely restated that speeding is dangerous - you failed to say why it is dangerous.

 

I presume that you are a believer in the fatuous government statement that speed kills.

 

Well said.

 

Cars and speed have always been thought of as dangerous - hence the man with a red flag being deemed necessary a century ago. I'm sure some ranters about speed want to go back to the red flag days.

 

To be honest the government's slogan should be Inappropriate Speed Kills

[MrShed]

I am amazed at some of the attitudes on here.

 

The original poster held his hands up to speeding but queried the NIP.

 

This forum was built on the fact that Bank Charges are unlawful and as such, we have taken advantage of the law to recover £millions back from the bank.

 

While you can sit on your high horses that he shouldnt have been speeding (And I would say less the 1/2 a % of the population dont speed but today they all seem to be on here) the fact is, do you all slate people with charges saying that you should have had money in your account.

 

The same rule applies.

 

To the OP, keep the envelope the NIP came in. If you can prove it arrived 14 days after the ALLEGED offence then no case to answer

 

We are on a public forum, there is nothing wrong with some constructive discussion surrounding the topic. If you want direct advice with no discussion, go to a solicitor....

[Isiris]

We are on a public forum, there is nothing wrong with some constructive discussion surrounding the topic. If you want direct advice with no discussion, go to a solicitor....

 

Its not constuctive if it isnt assisting the OPs situation. Maybe if you want to discuss the rights and wrongs of speeding, open a seperate thread

[Josie8]

OOOPS!-Ive started something off now havent i?? I must totally agree with arthur that driving within the speed limits all the time is very sensible and safe??? (if your brain operates at those speeds!!).

I most certainly am not a dangerous driver and like parva i only exceed limits where safe to do so! i drive in excess of 25k miles a year and have never in 21 years had or even nearly had as much as a sniff of an accident and also as many of you will agree i never had any points either until mobile cameras were put in place?

Im sure arthur is in a very small minority of drivers with a clean licence these days?

Anyway ive been on pepipoo and they dont really tell me what i want to know and their forum gets about 7 hits a year so i will probably be doing porridge by the time i get a reply to my question?

And by the way arthur i thought we were all on the same side on this website;) ?? BIG AL

 

 

The NIP must have been delivered to you no later than 14 days after the date of the offence so if offence date is 1st May, 2007 it must have arrived by 15th May, 2007 no later. Check date of offence and also the date summons was issued. If date of issue is more than 14 days then it is invalid. Also check date of posting on envelope it came in.

 

Points expire from your licence (or can be removed) four years after the date of offence. It doesn't matter what is on your licence when you committed the offence its only what is on your licence if you are either convicted or plead guilty.

 

Challenging a speeding charge normally takes several months through the court procedures.

 

If you hadn't received the original NIP then policy is to send out eiter a further NIP (28 days) or a seven day letter (depending on force). If no reply to that next step is normally either a repeat but Recorded Delivery or hand delivered by the friendly rozzers.

[MrShed]

Its not constuctive if it isnt assisting the OPs situation. Maybe if you want to discuss the rights and wrongs of speeding, open a seperate thread

 

Meh not true, but can't be bothered to keep defending my point. If you feel that forums should stay strictly 100% on topic, with no discussion around the topic, then fine - myself and the majority of other forum members would not agree, but we shall agree to disagree.

[dw190]

HI ALL,

I"ll make this as short as i can for you all?

Basically ive got 9 points on my licence and have just recently been zapped by a police camera van at the side of the road! apparently i was doing 47mph in a 40mph zone? The problem ive got is that the offence took place on the 21st april 2007 but i didnt recieve my letter until the 10th may 2007? I was under the impression that the police had 14 days to issue you with this letter??. The other thing is that 3 of my previous points are due to be removed on may 28th?(they are 3 years old on that date-is this correct??)so even if i dont have a case with the 14 day rule will i be able to buy myself enough time to have my 3 points removed before my new 3 points go on thus avoiding a ban????

ANY HELP WOULD BE GRATEFUL PLEASE-thanks BIG AL

 

The guy/gal is here requesting help because of a situation he/she is now in.

 

If you can help please do so. If you feel he/she should be hanged drawn and quartered then keep that thought to yourself. Start a website yourself for that purpose of discussion.

 

Personally I admire all the work that has gone into this site which started all because of Bank Charges/Penalties. I myself have never had any of these such penalties and will be sorry if as a result of this site I have to start paying charges on an always in credit account. If it happens, so be it.

 

The situation here is that someone may loose their licence, job, house and god knows whatever else because of exceeding the posted speed limit, caught by devices that may in themselves be faulty.

 

Case law have proved that driving at over 140 MPH on our motorways is not dangerous but still in excess of the posted limit.

 

 

Rant Over

[Josie8]

The guy/gal is here requesting help because of a situation he/she is now in.

 

If you can help please do so. If you feel he/she should be hanged drawn and quartered then keep that thought to yourself. Start a website yourself for that purpose of discussion.

 

Personally I admire all the work that has gone into this site which started all because of Bank Charges/Penalties. I myself have never had any of these such penalties and will be sorry if as a result of this site I have to start paying charges on an always in credit account. If it happens, so be it.

 

The situation here is that someone may loose their licence, job, house and god knows whatever else because of exceeding the posted speed limit, caught by devices that may in themselves be faulty.

 

Case law have proved that driving at over 140 MPH on our motorways is not dangerous but still in excess of the posted limit.

 

 

Rant Over

 

Thought I had.................

 

The NIP must have been delivered to you no later than 14 days after the date of the offence so if offence date is 1st May, 2007 it must have arrived by 15th May, 2007 no later. Check date of offence and also the date summons was issued. If date of issue is more than 14 days then it is invalid. Also check date of posting on envelope it came in.

 

Points expire from your licence (or can be removed) four years after the date of offence. It doesn't matter what is on your licence when you committed the offence its only what is on your licence if you are either convicted or plead guilty.

 

Challenging a speeding charge normally takes several months through the court procedures.

 

If you hadn't received the original NIP then policy is to send out eiter a further NIP (28 days) or a seven day letter (depending on force). If no reply to that next step is normally either a repeat but Recorded Delivery or hand delivered by the friendly rozzers.

[patdavies]

The NIP must have been delivered to you no later than 14 days after the date of the offence so if offence date is 1st May, 2007 it must have arrived by 15th May, 2007 no later.

This is only true for the first NIP in any chain that goes to the registered keeper (who is not necessarily the driver or the OP)

 

Check date of offence and also the date summons was issued. If date of issue is more than 14 days then it is invalid. Also check date of posting on envelope it came in.

This is nowhere near a summons. Anyway, there is a window of 6 months for the authorities 'to lay information' before a court to get a summons issued. Also, only registered, recorded or first class post is permissible for this first NIP

 

Points expire from your licence (or can be removed) four years after the date of offence. It doesn't matter what is on your licence when you committed the offence its only what is on your licence if you are either convicted or plead guilty.

Sorry, this is just wrong.

 

For most offences, points remain on the licence for 4 years. They only remain valid for totting up purposes for 3 years (ie 12 points within 3 years).

 

These timescales run from date of offence, not date of conviction. If the OP still had 9 points less than 3 years-old on his licence at the date of the latest alleged offence, then he will be liable for disqualification under totting up rules, regardless of when the conviction (if convicted) occurs for this latest offence.

If you hadn't received the original NIP then policy is to send out eiter a further NIP (28 days) or a seven day letter (depending on force).

There is no legal requirement for this. Provided the original NIP was sent, then the S.172 offence is complete 28 days later if the information has not be given to the SCP. If the NIP was sent by first class post there is a rebuttable presumption of delivery.

 

Normally however, the SCP will allow a second chance - this is because if you respond and eventually pay the £60 fixed penalty the money goes into their coffers. If you do not respond, the S.172 offence has to be taken to trial at Magistrates' Court and any fine goes into government coffers.

 

If no reply to that next step is normally either a repeat but Recorded Delivery or hand delivered by the friendly rozzers.

No, the next step if the second/reminder NIP is not replied to is S.172 summons.

[Josie8]

This is only true for the first NIP in any chain that goes to the registered keeper (who is not necessarily the driver or the OP)

Agreed but if it is invalid when first issued then it doesn't matter who the driver was the NIP falls

 

 

This is nowhere near a summons. Anyway, there is a window of 6 months for the authorities 'to lay information' before a court to get a summons issued. Also, only registered, recorded or first class post is permissible for this first NIP

 

apologies used wrong word ...meant NIP but I again refer to above ...and incidentally they do sometimes try to issue summons later than 6 months

 

For most offences, points remain on the licence for 4 years. They only remain valid for totting up purposes for 3 years (ie 12 points within 3 years).

Agreed .....but only from date of conviction NOT offence. You can apply to have them removed from licence after four years from date of offence

 

These timescales run from date of offence, not date of conviction. INCORRECT see above If the OP still had 9 points on his licence at the date of the latest alleged offence, then he will be liable for disqualification under totting up rules, regardless of when the conviction (if convicted) occurs for this latest offence.

Licence history is taken ninto consideration with what is outstanding at date of conviction

 

 

 

There is no legal requirement for this. Provided the original NIP was sent, then the S.172 offence is complete 28 days later if the information has not be given to the Police. If the NIP was sent by first class post there is a rebuttable presumption of delivery.

I said normal procedure - never said it was statute

 

Normally however, the SCP will allow a second chance - this is because if you respond and eventually pay the £60 fixed penalty the money goes into their coffers. If you do not respond, the S.172 offence has to be taken to trial at Magistrates' Court and any fine goes into government coffers.

 

 

 

No, the next step if the second/reminder NIP is not replied to is S.172 summons.

 

Again disagree......I run a large vehicle fleet ( have done for 20 + years) and am therefore very well aware of what normal practice is ....though as I said it does differ depending in which police area you were "done in "

[dw190]

For the avoidance of doubt.

 

Points displayed on a driving licence do not count towards totting up if they are spent.

 

Points cannot be removed from a licence immediately when spent but remain for a further one year to allow for people convicted some time after the offence.

[patdavies]

These timescales run from date of offence, not date of conviction. INCORRECT see above If the OP still had 9 points on his licence at the date of the latest alleged offence, then he will be liable for disqualification under totting up rules, regardless of when the conviction (if convicted) occurs for this latest offence.

 

Licence history is taken ninto consideration with what is outstanding at date of conviction

Wrong, the endorsement is from date of conviction and lasts 4 or 11 years depending on offence

 

From the DirectGov website - my emphasis.

 

Endorsements and disqualifications

 

The amount of time in which an endorsement remains on your licence depends on the type of offence committed. The date in which the endorsement starts also depends on the type of offence.

Endorsements must remain on a licence for 11 years from date of conviction if the offence is:

• drinking/drugs and driving (shown on the licence as DR10, DR20, DR30 and DR80)
  
• causing death by careless driving whilst under the influence of drink/drugs (shown on the licence as CD40, CD50 and CD60)
  
• causing death by careless driving, then failing to provide a specimen for analysis (shown on the licence as CD70)

Endorsements must remain on a licence for four years from date of conviction if the offence is:

• reckless/dangerous driving (shown on the licence as DD40, DD60 and DD80)
  
• offences resulting in disqualification
  
• disqualified from holding a full licence until a driving test has been passed

Endorsements must remain on a licence for four years from the date of offence in all other cases.

 

For the purposes of totting up, they are valid for 3 years from date of offence.

This "cuts both ways" - if you commit a 3 point offence while you have 9 "current" points on your licence you are liable for a totting up ban if you are convicted, regardless of whether any of those 9 points have expired by the time you are convicted.

 

Again, from DirectGov

Totting-up

 

If you incur 12 or more penalty points within a period of three years you will be liable to be disqualified under the 'totting-up' system.

[Rob S]

Wrong, the endorsement is from date of conviction and lasts 4 or 11 years depending on offence

 

That is correct for the more serious offences Pat, but not for minor offences such as speeding. The endorsement starts from the date of the offence.

[Josie8]

Wrong, the endorsement is from date of conviction and lasts 4 or 11 years depending on offence

 

From the DirectGov website - (as you quoted)

Endorsements and disqualifications

 

The amount of time in which an endorsement remains on your licence depends on the type of offence committed. The date in which the endorsement starts also depends on the type of offence.

 

Endorsements must remain on a licence for four years from the date of offence in all other cases (speeding falls into this category)

 

For the purposes of totting up, they are valid for 3 years from date of offence (when original speeding offence was committed)

 

Again, from DirectGov

Totting-up

 

If you incur 12 or more penalty points within a period of three years you will be liable to be disqualified under the 'totting-up' system.

This refers to the position of your licence at time of conviction for the latest speeding offence NOT at date offence was originally committed - note the word INCUR - (please feel free to check the Dictionary)

 

Must admit I'm a bit bemused by the vitriol with which you have attacked my previous posts.......particularly as you were totally wrong as outlined here............ but hey.....I only have 20+ years experience in dealing with these matters and I was only trying to give assistance to someone:rolleyes:

[patdavies]

From the Magistrates' Bench Book

 

The defendant is a totter if they have 12 or more points.......for offences committed within a period of 3 years.

 

Committed (ie time of commission of offence), not convicted (ie court appearance)

[Josie8]

From the Magistrates' Bench Book

 

The defendant is a totter if they have 12 or more points.......for offences committed within a period of 3 years.

 

Committed (ie time of commission of offence), not convicted (ie court appearance)

 

 

For someone to have been deemed to have "committed "an offence they must have been convicted. At time of sentencing only offences which have been convicted in the previous 1094 days will be taken into account......any others are "spent" convictions. Should magistrates administer justice the way you suggest then their decision would be quickly overturned in the Crown Court on appeal.

[patdavies]

So what you are saying is that if a driver has a previous conviction for which the points become spent in 3 months, then he only has to string out the court appearance (and subsequent new conviction) to avoid disqualification under 'totting-up' until those 3 months have passed?

 

I rather think not.

[Josie8]

So what you are saying is that if a driver has a previous conviction for which the points become spent in 3 months, then he only has to string out the court appearance (and subsequent new conviction) to avoid disqualification under 'totting-up' until those 3 months have passed?

 

I rather think not.

 

You may think not but I doubt the Courts particularly care what you think. What you think doesn't really matter does it - after all it's the legal reality that matters and it's for the courts to administer the law accordingly. Whether a defendant plays the system or not is irrelevant - all that matters here for the person asking for help is what the legal position really is (not what you would like it to be).

 

After all I'm sure the banks would love to be able get away with saying "its not fair that we're having to refund the penalty charges which we think impecunious borrowers should be punished by having to pay".

[patdavies]

Josie8

 

You own post agrees with my assertion that points run from offence and not conviction for speeding.

 

Endorsements must remain on a licence for four years from the date of offence in all other cases (speeding falls into this category)

 

For the purposes of totting up, they are valid for 3 years from date of offence (when original speeding offence was committed)

 

 

So if Driver A has 9 current points when he is pinged by a camera. By the time he is convicted, the earliest 3 of these points have expired since it is now over 3 years since the offence.

 

Q: Does he get disqualified for totting up?

A: Yes, because his newest 3 points run from data of offence and therefore from that date he now has 12 points

[dw190]

Josie8

 

You own post agrees with my assertion that points run from offence and not conviction for speeding.

 

 

 

So if Driver A has 9 current points when he is pinged by a camera. By the time he is convicted, the earliest 3 of these points have expired since it is now over 3 years since the offence.

 

Q: Does he get disqualified for totting up?

A: Yes, because his newest 3 points run from data of offence and therefore from that date he now has 12 points

 

Agreed.

 

That is why the following rule applies.

 

Endorsements must remain on a licence for four years