CCA Agreements (Mark II) PLUS any other topic

[lellypea]

Thanks Dave ...... Have looked at the very poor quality faxed (unsigned) copy of 1990 standard Agreement' they produced in court 2001 (when they screwed my hubs) and all I can make out of almost illegible script is

 

'Governing Law: This deed shall be covered by and constituted in accordance with the laws of England.'

 

...like you I seem to think there's a different set of regs for businesses.

 

Help....anybody.....much appreciated. I'm just dying to screw them right back.

 

lel

[zubo]

Thanks Dave ...... Have looked at the very poor quality faxed (unsigned) copy of 1990 standard Agreement' they produced in court 2001 (when they screwed my hubs) and all I can make out of almost illegible script is

 

'Governing Law: This deed shall be covered by and constituted in accordance with the laws of England.'

 

...like you I seem to think there's a different set of regs for businesses.

 

Help....anybody.....much appreciated. I'm just dying to screw them right back.

 

lel

 

lel,

 

sorry meant to respond on my workshop thread... just too much happening not enough hours.

Dave's response would be mine - check if it is an Agreement Regulated by CCA.

 

Lel - if they screwed hubs - why they screwing you??? Also, it wouldn't hurt to hit them with a 'discovery' letter re your hubbie. Just need a bit of courage, and I REALLY am not sure of facts, but if they got an unsound judgement based upon an unenforceable agreement then I would be looking for a set aside on the judgement becaise you have 'discovered' that the agreement in law is not enforceable, AND you will be seeking compensation for distress and anything else....

It does NOT hurt to shout your intentions at them.

 

CCA and SAR them...

 

 

Z

[Peterbard]

Hi

Business loans are covered by the CCa1974 upto the value of £25ooo interestingly enough when the credit limit is increased in 2008(I think) it will remain at £25000.

So yes i don't see why section 77 should not apply

 

Peter

[lellypea]

Hi Zub....thanks for that.....very interested in the 'discovery letter' you mentioned .... I'll try and find out more about it (...or can you point me in right direction??

 

They screwed hubs over good and proper (not me 'directly' ...tho indirectly yes they just about wiped us all out) It spanned 1990-2001

and involved in our opinion all sorts of skulduggery.

 

Whilst busy recouping bank charges - spotted this subject - in which rbos seems to star quite regularly - and am trying to assemble all info to get to bottom of it and strike back.

 

Great thread - really appreciate it. Have sent SAR (deadline 28 May) but

want to press them on signed agreement as (to best of hubs memory - an so far paperwork uncovered backs this) RBOS couldn't find original and court case was heard with 'standard copy' (uncompleted/signed)

 

Seems odd - but so far paperwork backs it up. Am waiting for other info from various sources. Will start a thread a s a got a mo.

 

As they 'struggled' to even find a 1990 copy - the poorly faxed one I have is all that's available so don't think I can confirm what Regs applied.

 

I may just have to send the CCA 77 request - but feel it may give them room ro wriggle out. Or maybe I should write asking them to confirm exactly what 'Governing law..of England' is referred to (as post 454 above)

 

Any thoughts much appreciated.

 

regards, lel

[lellypea]

.....cost hubs £50,000 on top of 6 years £180 pm payments ....nearly all interest!! (and of course charges!!)

[davefirewalker]

funny enough I had the same sort of thing happen to me at about the same time......."nearly" lost the house.

 

ended up with a charge instead......still on it

 

thinks....(must re look at this one )

Dave

[humbleman]

Hi

Business loans are covered by the CCa1974 upto the value of £25ooo interestingly enough when the credit limit is increased in 2008(I think) it will remain at £25000.

So yes i don't see why section 77 should not apply

 

Peter

for ltd co's. aswell?

[lellypea]

Hi Peter ..... sorry didn't notice ur post earlier - I think on that basis ....an

Humbleman's confirmation re Ltd status... I'll send the CCA 77 off tomoro and see what they come up with.

 

Know exactly what it feels like Dave. Nobody minds facing consequences of mistakes made, but not being ripped off and hung out to dry to these

ruthless thugs.

 

Thanks guys... I'll try and make to to start a thread tomoro.

I'll keep ou posted if anything satisfying develops.

 

cheers

 

lel

[humbleman]

Hi Peter ..... sorry didn't notice ur post earlier - I think on that basis ....an

Humbleman's confirmation re Ltd status... I'll send the CCA 77 off tomoro and see what they come up with.

 

lel

 

lel

 

It was a question not a confirmation, sorry wasn't clear

[davefirewalker]

.....cost hubs £50,000 on top of 6 years £180 pm payments ....nearly all interest!! (and of course charges!!)

 

 

Hi.....

 

just found this thread that may be of help.....

 

Ask a question here

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/73488-limited-company-claims.html

 

hope it helps

 

 

Dave

[standingupformyself]

Standingupformyself and MBNAABBEY CREDIT CARD - Consumer Action Group

 

I have had some help already with this, but could anyone spare the time to look at my thread? MBNA have admitted they have not got my CCA. I am claiming charges back from them... Thank you

[robert_harper_2000]

If the creditor doesn't have the agreement can you claim the money back that you have paid or is it that you can stop payments and wouldn't have to pay any extra?

[iconoclash]

Hi Standingup.. and Robert - I think this has been covered somewhere on this forum but I know it gets a bit difficult to locate stuff at times.......generally, my own understanding is that where the agreement cannot be traced/found a creditor could have difficulty in enforcing payment without it, but the moment it is found, they can proceed. I suppose that also means that you could make a formal request for it (poss. done that already) and when it doesnt appear, write again and state that you are suspending all payment until it does appear. This would not affect claiming back charges against the statements. Hope this helps.

[angry cat]

Hi standingupformyself

 

Interesting letter this morning.

Dear Mrs ***

Account ****

Thank you for your recent request, I can confirm the following our enclosed;

Terms & Conditions

Recent statement of account

 

I am unable to enclose a copy of the original credit application".

 

Interesting how MBNA refer to a request for a true copy of the executed signed agreement as...a copy of the original credit application.

 

AC

[davey77]

where the agreement cannot be traced/found a creditor could have difficulty in enforcing payment without it, but the moment it is found, they can proceed.

 

Yes but if the creditor writes to you (if you can get them to do so) and says that they cannot comply with the CCA and under the terms of the Consumer Credit Act are writing the debt off as unrecoverable doesn't that mean that letter is legally binding? In that even if they find the agreement after that point they can't reinstate the debt? Or am i wrong!?

[SteveH2508]

where the agreement cannot be traced/found a creditor could have difficulty in enforcing payment without it, but the moment it is found, they can proceed.

 

Yes but if the creditor writes to you (if you can get them to do so) and says that they cannot comply with the CCA and under the terms of the Consumer Credit Act are writing the debt off as unrecoverable doesn't that mean that letter is legally binding? In that even if they find the agreement after that point they can't reinstate the debt? Or am i wrong!?

 

Statements by creditor or owner to be binding.

 

172.--(1) A statement by a creditor or owner is binding on him if given under--

section 77(1),

section 78(1),

section 79(1),

section 97(1),

section 107(1)©,

section 108(1)©, or

section 109(1)©.

(2) Where a trader--

(a) gives a customer a notice in compliance with section 103(1)(b), or

(b) gives a customer a notice under section 103(1) asserting that the customer is not indebted to him under an agreement, the notice is binding on the trader.

(3) Where in proceedings before any court--

(a) it is sought to reply on a statement or notice given as mentioned in subsection (1) or (2), and

(b) the statement or notice is shown to be incorrect, the court may direct such relief (if any) to be given to the creditor or owner from the operation of subsection (1) or (2) as appears to the court to be just.

 

Section 172 of the Act covers this. Basically the statement is binding BUT subsection 3 gives the court the power to 'un-bind' them.

[standingupformyself]

Angry Cat.... I received exactly the same letter about 2 weeks ago...... Looks like they have not got your CCA either.

[davey77]

Statements by creditor or owner to be binding.

 

172.--(1) A statement by a creditor or owner is binding on him if given under--

section 77(1),

section 78(1),

section 79(1),

section 97(1),

section 107(1)©,

section 108(1)©, or

section 109(1)©.

(2) Where a trader--

(a) gives a customer a notice in compliance with section 103(1)(b), or

(b) gives a customer a notice under section 103(1) asserting that the customer is not indebted to him under an agreement, the notice is binding on the trader.

(3) Where in proceedings before any court--

(a) it is sought to reply on a statement or notice given as mentioned in subsection (1) or (2), and

(b) the statement or notice is shown to be incorrect, the court may direct such relief (if any) to be given to the creditor or owner from the operation of subsection (1) or (2) as appears to the court to be just.

 

Section 172 of the Act covers this. Basically the statement is binding BUT subsection 3 gives the court the power to 'un-bind' them.

 

Ah right, thanks, I see! Could be cause for a creditor to go after a debtor months or yrs after sending them a 'we write off this debt' letter although i would have thought unlikely and even if it was so to my mind a court wouldn't seriously entertain such a notion. Haven't heard of that happening at least. fingers crossed then!

[robert_harper_2000]

Hi Standingup.. and Robert - I think this has been covered somewhere on this forum but I know it gets a bit difficult to locate stuff at times.......generally, my own understanding is that where the agreement cannot be traced/found a creditor could have difficulty in enforcing payment without it, but the moment it is found, they can proceed. I suppose that also means that you could make a formal request for it (poss. done that already) and when it doesnt appear, write again and state that you are suspending all payment until it does appear. This would not affect claiming back charges against the statements. Hope this helps.

 

So I could request all my payments refunded? I do not have any charges on the account so would not be claiming these. I just wanted to know if my brother can claim the money back or if it suspends the payments pending

[Perseus]

Just to jump in here...

It is my understanding that if an agreement is not enforceable, payments with-held until it is, or a request to nullify it is accepted - the only reclaim you could attempt (and it may involve a protracted correspondence) is to request consolidation of 'Interest paid against an unenforceable debt' - not the full repayments made to the account.

There is a big difference...

To reclaim everything you have paid them - would include asking for a refund of the debits you have made against purchases.

Morally and in court, I think you would have a very hard time pushing that through.

To reclaim the interest that has been paid on the amounts you have spent is more likely achievable, but as I say with a lot of correspondence.

To have the debt wiped entirely would achieve possibly more than a refund of that interest, so is the most favourable and most likely scenario.

Just my opinion...

[standingupformyself]

To be honest, I am just hoping that MBNA not being able to provide my CCA will throw some clout on my claim for refund of charges. I agree with you, morally, to try to walk away from this debt is wrong.... It is fact that the debt exists, otherwise why would I be making payments to MBNA every month for the past ten years. If they wish to wipe the debt... then great, obviously.....

[standingupformyself]

I have drafted a letter, I know that I could use some legal jargon to throw some weight to the case...... Any input gratefully received...

 

Thanks xx

 

Dear

I refer to your letter, dated 22.5.07 where you informed me that you were unable to provide me with a copy of my Consumer Credit Agreement, which I requested under section 78 of the consumer credit act. I acknowledge that you have sent to me a copy of the terms and conditions of your credit card. This however does not fulfil your obligations as a lender. You point out in your letter that MBNA has responded in full to the request I made under section 78. I totally and utterly dispute that fact, you have not provided me with a copy of my CCA, and until you do the status of my account with you remains in dispute.

I would like to point out to you that I am in the process of reclaiming unfair charges from MBNA, to date the amount I am pursuing is £xxxxxx, which is made up of £xxxxx in charges and £xxxxxx in interest, charged at the rate that you are charging me. I also require defaults listed against me to be removed.

I am totally aware that MBNA not being able to provide me with a copy of my requested CCA is an offence in the eyes of the law, making the debt unenforceable. I am also aware of the steps I can now take in reporting this non compliance.

I ask that you now settle my claim, without further delay to prevent this situation being taken any further. I look forward to hearing from you within 14 days of the above,

Regards,

[Cornucopia]

To be honest, I am just hoping that MBNA not being able to provide my CCA will throw some clout on my claim for refund of charges. I agree with you, morally, to try to walk away from this debt is wrong.... It is fact that the debt exists, otherwise why would I be making payments to MBNA every month for the past ten years. If they wish to wipe the debt... then great, obviously.....

 

Standing, I completely disagree with this, apart from the fact that you can actually walk away from the debt, you do not hold a moral obligation to the money lenders and I really don't care what anybody says about this. If you added up the amount of interest you have paid over the last 10 years, they have had their money in spades. I am sorry, but this holds no ground with me.

 

Of course, if you wanted to keep things "nice" you could use it as a tool for full and final, forget the charges, offer 10% of the balance on the basis that they cannot enforce the debt.

 

My own view is that you should have reclaimed the charges first and then pursued the CCA route. However, as things stand, you can walk away from this and I think you should! It makes me SO mad, they are happy to take your money and charge you an exhorbitant rate when the going is good, but when it is bad, you are stuffed! My husband has paid nigh on £50K to MBNA over the last 11 years, yet the debt hasn't moved. Sod that, it just isn't on!!!

 

I would just add that I have been on the Pinot:o Therefore am rather more mouthy than usual!

 

Anybody want a fight????!!!

[miss muppet]

Exactly my sentiments Corn, mind you I have been on the Pinot too (just the one glass though!). Was giving a bit of advice re cca's to a new member the other day and they said they wanted to repay the debt - thought helloooo! wait 'til you're one or more years down the line and they suddenly start adding interest and the debt is going up and up despite your best efforts!

[Cornucopia]

Exactly my sentiments Corn, mind you I have been on the Pinot too (just the one glass though!). Was giving a bit of advice re cca's to a new member the other day and they said they wanted to repay the debt - thought helloooo! wait 'til you're one or more years down the line and they suddenly start adding interest and the debt is going up and up despite your best efforts!

 

Miss Muppet! Hello stranger, hope you are well and how's Mr Muppet? Hope all OK, email me with your news will you???!!!

 

Glad you agree, I just have no morals when it comes to this. Morals to me mean a completely different thing - the money lenders don't even enter the equation in my opinion and in any event, where are their morals???? Oh don't get me started or I might just end up being arrested! LOL!!

 

Love,

 

Corn x:)