CCA Agreements (Mark II) PLUS any other topic

[zubo]

Tom

 

That is excellent - well spotted.

 

I do believe that they have committed an offence - writing CCA financial business without a licence is a serious offence.

 

Also, surely this agreement is not worth the paper its written on.

I'm going to go through the Act to see about licenses.

 

Z

 

ah well,

 

got all excited, checked up with FSA - they just regulate Insurance, Morgage and Investments. OFT issue CCA licences.

 

No doubt this mob are covered but I will check....

 

Z

[zubo]

HI Z

 

Repayments are a prescribed term

 

Cheers Peter

 

Peter

 

so.... if they have calculated this wrong... is it unenforceable, or unexecuted??

 

ta

 

Z

[Jaranius]

xx

[Peterbard]

Peter

 

so.... if they have calculated this wrong... is it unenforceable, or unexecuted??

 

ta

 

Z

#

 

Hiz

 

Unefroceable due to the fact that it was improperly executed.

 

Regards

Peter

[zubo]

'Unexecuted' relates to the signing of the documentation.The document can often indicate at what point the agreement becomes executed so each case must be taken on its own merit.

 

For example, an agreement may state that it can be signed by the debtor, but will not considered to be executed until it is received by the creditor and signed by them also.

 

Another example, an agreement may state that it will be considered executed once it is signed by the debtor.

 

Sorry this is not a straight forward answer, as it depends on each individual agreement and what it says in the guidelines of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 sections (62), (63) and (64).

 

'Unenforceable' relates to a document being improperly executed as it is missing a prescribed term (relating specifically to your type of agreement), or if a prescribed term is incorrect, or in the case of a cancellable agreement, - even if it did have all the prescribed terms and they were correct, it must also include the correct statements and adhere to the exact procedures relating to the cancellation notices etc.

 

It is also unenforceable if the agreement is illegible.

 

If I've forgotten anything, I am sure our friends will enlighten us.

 

Hope this helps.

Jay-R

 

Jay-R

 

Thanks for your comments - I do appreciate it... but

 

The sections refer to the obligation of the creditor to give a copy of the agreement under the different circumstances - a number of these are to cover distance agreements - ie offsite. Unfortunately they do not exactly define what is specifically meant by unexecuted. These discussions we had about 100 pages ago which is why I asked Peter (or Pam).

As far as I can see this agreement is improperly executed and I believe under these circumstances we can withhold payment until the court enforces the agreement. I assume that the court can then rule on an amendment to the agreement to correct the repayment error.

 

Pam/Peter please confirm

 

Z

[Peterbard]

hI Z

I know you may have gone through this before but if you tell us the exact cicumstances of how you recieved your loan i can advise which notices and copies you should have obtained.

 

Need to know

 

Did you discuss the agreement before signing or pick up the unexecuted unsigned agreement from your bank?

 

Did you sign on trade premises or at home

 

was the agreement personally presnted for your signature at home

 

did you sign at home and send off for the creditors signature

 

Was ther a sepperate information sheet labelled precontractual information provided with the agreement if you picked it up from a store or a petrol station or if it was a flyer.

 

Was their anticedal degotiations (discussions) via the telephone or internet prior to you recieving the agreement.

 

Was it secured on land

 

Was it to purchase land for mortgauge.

 

Was it a fixed term loan agreement with regular payment intervalls.

 

Did you discuss or have anticedal negotiations at any time before the agreement was executed.

Peter

[zubo]

hI Z

I know you may have gone through this before but if you tell us the exact cicumstances of how you recieved your loan i can advise which notices and copies you should have obtained.

 

Need to know

 

Did you discuss the agreement before signing or pick up the unexecuted unsigned agreement from your bank? NO

 

Did you sign on trade premises or at home AT Trade Premises

 

was the agreement personally presnted for your signature at home NO

 

did you sign at home and send off for the creditors signature Think not - it was completed at trade premises

 

Was ther a sepperate information sheet labelled precontractual information provided with the agreement if you picked it up from a store or a petrol station or if it was a flyer. NOT APPLICABLE

 

Was their anticedal degotiations (discussions) via the telephone or internet prior to you recieving the agreement. No

 

Was it secured on land No

 

Was it to purchase land for mortgauge. No

 

Was it a fixed term loan agreement with regular payment intervalls. Yes 3 year standard monthly lease with balloon payment at end

 

Did you discuss or have anticedal negotiations at any time before the agreement was executed. No

Peter

 

Peter

 

It's my sons lease agreement for a BMW with BMW Lease company.

I'll answer the questions above, but the point is - if the calculations ARE incorrect surely a court would be allowed to correct it - ie it is NOT unenforceable.???

 

Z

[Peterbard]

If the agreement was made and executed on trade premisses it is uncancellable.

If the calculations you refer to are one of the prescribed terms the court cannot inforce the agreement.

If the APR or other information is incorrect then they can enforce with the order of the court.That is not to say that they would, it would depend on the nature of the error and section 127 does have other remedies such as altering the repayment amount or criterea.

 

Regards

Peter

[zubo]

If the agreement was made and executed on trade premisses it is uncancellable.

If the calculations you refer to are one of the prescribed terms the court cannot inforce the agreement.

If the APR or other information is incorrect then they can enforce with the order of the court.That is not to say that they would, it would depend on the nature of the error and section 127 does have other remedies such as altering the repayment amount or criterea.

 

Regards

Peter

 

It does seem odd Peter that because they got the repayment calculation wrong (a prescribed term I am advised) , my son can basically stop paying.

 

I don't want to give him duff info....

 

Z

[yaffsimone1]

Hi Guys & Ladies,

 

Can you have a quick look at this 'agreement' i got from Littlewoods. Its probably best to read the letter first and tell me your thoughts. What i am i supposed to do with it, i think they have sent me a blank copy of thier agreement. its not actually mine!

[yaffsimone1]

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w254/yaffsimone1/agreement.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w254/yaffsimone1/CCAletter.jpg

 

Try again, im not very good at this!

[davefirewalker]

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w254/yaffsimone1/agreement.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w254/yaffsimone1/CCAletter.jpg

 

Try again, im not very good at this!

 

just one point...... amongst many

 

where are the signatures ???

 

They havent got a hope

 

Dave

[ian1969uk]

That's exactly the same as they sent me. It's not your agreement at all, just a blank sample agreement. Write back and tell them so. When I did that they wrote back and said they would not be pursuing the debt.

[yaffsimone1]

That's exactly the same as they sent me. It's not your agreement at all, just a blank sample agreement. Write back and tell them so. When I did that they wrote back and said they would not be pursuing the debt.

 

 

Well when i opened it i did a double take, it is just that a sample agreement it nowhere near what i asked for. I had to post it on here just to make sure.

 

I will send the letter off tommorrow. Can i ask how did you word yours?

[yaffsimone1]

Where it is blanked out they have just typed my name onto the paper and the first line of my address.

[itsmeandonlyme]

Hello Guys,

I did tried to post it on the other thread, but got no replies and feel like i am stuck...http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/74733-credit-agreement-application-24.html

 

Today i received even worth photocopy and a letter with the returned check that i sent back to Creation Finance a week ago. They are insisting that the application form i had signed in store when applied for the card is the agreement, but the thing is i can't read it...and they seem do not care that the copy that has been provided under CCA 1974 is unreadable. I am posting the copy of the letter and the photocopy of the application form that they provided as an agreement...do not want to take whole page of the thread with my documents, so please have a look at the thread above to see better copy of the application form(which has been supplied previously but still hard to read anything). I do understand that the copy below is unreadble but just wanted to show you what they had sent me...( Just to let you know this is an application form that i signed in store when applied for the store card, and than after some time they sent me a T&C)

Pam, you did say that the agreement provided under CCA has to be readble, so where do i go now? it's a third copy like this.......

 

Dave, i can see u r here as well..))

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ian1969uk]

Can i ask how did you word yours?

 

Dear Sir or Madam

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

Thank you for your recent letter sent to me, the contents of which are noted. I appreciate your quick response to my original letter. However, the reply received by me does not fulfill your requirements under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

The Act demands that I be supplied with a true copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. I may ask for this on demand providing that a fee of £1.00 is paid. This fee was sent with my original letter.

My request remains outstanding. An unsigned credit agreement with my details simply printed onto it, like the one you sent in your reply, does not constitute a true copy of any credit agreement that may or may not have been signed by me on the opening of this account. A blank agreement neither confirms that I am liable for any alleged debt to you, nor gives me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’.

I still require you to send me a true copy of the original credit agreement that you allege exists. As you will know, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. This means that unless you can produce such an agreement, this alleged debt is not enforceable in law.

You had until 7th February 2007 to provide me with the true copy I requested. You are now in default of my request. Any account I hold with you is now in legal dispute. Whilst the account remains in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account. Additionally, you are not entitled to register any information on this account with any credit reference agency.

To register information with a credit reference agency, you must have written consent from the customer to collate and share such information. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement, so until you produce such an agreement, you may not do this.

You now have until 7th March 2007 to comply with my request. Should you fail to provide me with a true copy of a properly executed credit agreement by this date, you will have committed a criminal offence and your conduct will be reported to the Office of Fair Trading, the Financial Ombudsman and Trading Standards. Any investigation undertaken by them may affect your ability to offer credit in the future.

To sum up, I will not be making any further payments to you until you provide me with the document I have requested. Whilst you remain in default of my request, you are not permitted to take any action against this account. This includes adding further charges and passing any information to the credit reference agencies.

Should you not have any signed credit agreement in relation to this alleged debt, please confirm this in writing to me.

I am sending a copy of this letter to Nationwide Debt Recovery Limited who are currently dealing with my account.

I look forward to your reply.

Yours faithfully

ian1969uk

Feel free to adapt and use.

[zubo]

Hello Guys,

I did tried to post it on the other thread, but got no replies and feel like i am stuck...http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/74733-credit-agreement-application-24.html

 

Today i received even worth photocopy and a letter with the returned check that i sent back to Creation Finance a week ago. They are insisting that the application form i had signed in store when applied for the card is the agreement, but the thing is i can't read it...and they seem do not care that the copy that has been provided under CCA 1974 is unreadable. I am posting the copy of the letter and the photocopy of the application form that they provided as an agreement...do not want to take whole page of the thread with my documents, so please have a look at the thread above to see better copy of the application form(which has been supplied previously but still hard to read anything). I do understand that the copy below is unreadble but just wanted to show you what they had sent me...( Just to let you know this is an application form that i signed in store when applied for the store card, and than after some time they sent me a T&C)

Pam, you did say that the agreement provided under CCA has to be readble, so where do i go now? it's a third copy like this.......

 

Dave, i can see u r here as well..))

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Me,

 

First it does not say Application - where does it say that? it says Credit Agreement....

 

however - you need to write back and say that the true copy supplied in accordance with the Act MUST be legible so they have not complied with the Act and the agreement is now in Default. Please can they supply a legible true copy of the agreement.

 

Reading what I can see, there are a whole bunch of missing prescribed terms which makes it unenforceable too.

 

Z

 

So

[zubo]

Dear Sir or Madam

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

Thank you for your recent letter sent to me, the contents of which are noted. I appreciate your quick response to my original letter. However, the reply received by me does not fulfill your requirements under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

The Act demands that I be supplied with a true copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. I may ask for this on demand providing that a fee of £1.00 is paid. This fee was sent with my original letter.

 

My request remains outstanding. An unsigned credit agreement with my details simply printed onto it, like the one you sent in your reply, does not constitute a true copy of any credit agreement that may or may not have been signed by me on the opening of this account. A blank agreement neither confirms that I am liable for any alleged debt to you, nor gives me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’.

 

I still require you to send me a true copy of the original credit agreement that you allege exists. As you will know, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. This means that unless you can produce such an agreement, this alleged debt is not enforceable in law.

 

You had until 7th February 2007 to provide me with the true copy I requested. You are now in default of my request. Any account I hold with you is now in legal dispute. Whilst the account remains in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account. Additionally, you are not entitled to register any information on this account with any credit reference agency.

 

To register information with a credit reference agency, you must have written consent from the customer to collate and share such information. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement, so until you produce such an agreement, you may not do this.

 

You now have until 7th March 2007 to comply with my request. Should you fail to provide me with a true copy of a properly executed credit agreement by this date, you will have committed a criminal offence and your conduct will be reported to the Office of Fair Trading, the Financial Ombudsman and Trading Standards. Any investigation undertaken by them may affect your ability to offer credit in the future.

 

To sum up, I will not be making any further payments to you until you provide me with the document I have requested. Whilst you remain in default of my request, you are not permitted to take any action against this account. This includes adding further charges and passing any information to the credit reference agencies.

 

Should you not have any signed credit agreement in relation to this alleged debt, please confirm this in writing to me.

 

I am sending a copy of this letter to Nationwide Debt Recovery Limited who are currently dealing with my account.

 

I look forward to your reply.

 

Yours faithfully

 

ian1969uk

 

 

 

Feel free to adapt and use.

 

Ian

 

Excellent letter - I just posted it into Workshop as #31 if you dont mind.

 

Z

[itsmeandonlyme]

Dear Zubo,

This was the application....when i applied for the card, in other thread there is a letter from CF that confirms that it's an application, and Legal Manager that left her job confirmed that it's an application..but now in this letter they say that this is an agreement.

 

Can you please let me know what is missing (which prescribed items the application doesn't have to be an agreement) ?))

 

The conversation that i had with company secretary was about this application form that he insisted is an agreement. All the copies are copied badly, all the copies are unreadble. I also do not remember to receive an copy of the agreement when they supplied me with card....

 

I already sent 2 letters 1 CCA request 1- pointing that with the unreadable/legable copy they still haven't complied with CCA request...

I will send 3-d letter but what else can i do meanwhile..who can i complain to?

 

 

Thank you.

 

 

Kind regards,

 

 

Maria

[yaffsimone1]

ian1969uk

 

Thank you i will use parts of it and will post thier reply, hopefully not too long from now.

 

I notice Nationwide Debt Recovery were dealing with you. Same here but it was interesting to find out that when they filed thier 2006 accounts they were registered as a dormant company, which bascially means they could not of had any accounting transactions that year! Their 2007 accounts are due to be filed in July, i will be keeping my eye on them to see how they are registered in 2007.

 

Shop Direct Financial Services who own Littlewoods also use GCC Debt Recovery another dormant company....i can see a pattern forming.

[ian1969uk]

Ian

 

Excellent letter - I just posted it into Workshop as #31 if you dont mind.

 

Z

 

I don't mind at all!

[Guest Battleaxe]

Where it is blanked out they have just typed my name onto the paper and the first line of my address.

 

Write back to the Company Secretary and tell him that the agreement is unenforceable. Remind him that he has to comply with the CCA 1974 and supply a true copy of the executed agreement.

 

There isn't one. So they will try to get you to admit the debt. They will write back and ask did you receive the goods. Do not reply to them.

 

It is up to you if you admit the debt, What they claim is an agreement is unenforceable and unexecuted as you have not signed it.

 

The debt will remain, but cannot be enforced and they will keep processing your data with the CRA's.

[ian1969uk]

 

The debt will remain, but cannot be enforced and they will keep processing your data with the CRA's.

 

This is a bit that interests me. Putting aside any dispute as to whether they are entitled to process data without a credit agreement, for the sake of this discussion, let's assume they are entitled to.

 

Now, information from creditors will supposedly remain on a credit record for 6 years. But what's to stop a creditor just upating every month to say payments are still behind, and never taking a final action that will start the 6 year countdown?

 

Are they ever forced into a position whereby they must issue a default, which would then remain for 6 years before disappearing?

[Guest Battleaxe]

They do update every month, but cannot issue a default because of the unenforceable agreement, the only hope they have to force the issue is to get you into court and to for you to admit the debt in a statement of truth, BUT catch 22, how can they do that when they can't prove you agreed to repay them? It's a Mexican standoff