Chip and Pin victim :(

[Legion]

Hi all,

 

This is my first post here.

I basically want to share my experience with almost legal chip and pin fraud.

Basically I went in to a club/bar one night in London and put my pin in to pay for a 29£ round of drinks (2 Sex on the Beach and 1 vodka and coke) - that was expensive enough I thought when I received the receipt.. but upon checking my statements later I found out that the club withdrew 290£ out of my account!

Hence im in the process now of trying to somehow claim that money back.

My first port of call was to phone my bank (queries department) who performed a check of what the transaction was and all the could give me was 'verified by pin' indicating that I was aware of the quantity etc... and nothing to do with them..

Feeling a bit cheesed off I did some research on the net and it turns out that retailers can STILL access your details without you being present and ammend the amount they charge you...

 

Here's a couple cases :

 

The Devil's Kitchen: ChipPin' away at fraud

 

Money - Times Online - WBLG: Hidden danger of chip and pin

 

In both of these cases the retailer changed the final bill without the approval or knowledge of the consumer..

SO thats a big warning to you all out there to check your statements and keep your receipts...

Usually I keep mine but I can't find the receipt from the night out so I'm in the process now of trying to obtain one from the club itself... who are proving to be extremely elusive.. and even if they did give a receipt I think it is hard for me to prove that all I bought was 3 measly drinks...

If I dont get a receipt from the club I'll get through to the fraud department of my bank but again I doubt if they'll be too willing to help out

I'll try and update you all if there is any progress, hopefully someone out there might have some advice for me.

[sequenci]

did you keep the receipt?

[MARTIN3030]

Unfortunately its still happening.

Theres 2 card issuers that WILL refund....but the rest still wont. was featured on TVs watchdog programme recently

 

type in watchdog in your search and click on finances (reports)

you will get the story it was called chip and pin.

Good luck

[buzby]

This isn't a Chip & PIN problem ,you would have been in exactly the same situation if you had a swipe card. The problem remains, in the confusion at hte bar, did you actuall notice the debit amount? It may have been entered as £290 at the terminal, and you OKd it. In this case, the issue is not with the bank which simply followed your instructions, but the bar, who took the wrong amount.

[Legion]

The receipt I had at the time was for £29 showing exactly how much i paid for each item, unfortunately I lost this receipt =(

What I shall try to obtain from the bar is an itemised bill to see how much i was paying for each item.

 

According a HSBC senior person :

 

Up to 40 minutes after any chip&pin/card transaction, the retailer may access your confidential details and submit any number of further transactions (or cancel the original and submit a new transaction) without your presence or consent. This is perfectly legal practice. The onus is then on the customer to challenge these subsequent transactions with their bank, once the customer actually becomes aware of them

 

 

 

 

[buzby]

In that case, the receipt is immaterial surely? As for the merchant having 40 minutes to submit additional unauthorised transactions, I've not been able to find this in HSBCs Merchant Rules for card transactions - perhaps they would care to provide documentary proof? (Mind you, Car Rental firms seem to get a free hand to debit again long after the vehicle is returned).

 

It really beggars belief!

[JimmyTheOne]

The way forward. Tell you card issuer again and ask them for a disputed transaction form.

 

You say you did receive a receipt for £29 that you no longer have, well there still should be an auditable trail and your card issuer should be able to trace this.

 

If it were a credit card you used, then consider changing it to Chip & Signature - at least you'd have a receipt AND so would the bar.

 

(By the way your not the first to be overcharged due to PIN use).

 

This is Money wanted to fight cases of PIN based fraud on the victims behalf, but I can't find the link - sorry.

 

Good luck.

[Alex123456]

Hey I'm currently trying to get my money back from a bar in London aswell (maybe the same 1?), i got double charged for an already expensive meal. I made the initial payment on a chip an pin machine, but after checking the amount and entering my pin they realized their was no receipt paper left in it. An acting manager came over with another chip n pin machine and ensured me the previous one wouldn't have processed the payment.

 

One week later and I have two identical charges on my statement....

they keep giving me broken promises now about reimbursing the money back to my account now. My bank can't do anything because it was on debit card/ What was the bar you were at? Was it the No1 leicester Square.?.. because they have been very unprofessional with me.

[buzby]

Another benefit of Chip & Signature - I saw one customer in front of me at a hotel being asked AFTER he entered his PIN (and it was accepted) that due to the paper receipt not working, the card was swiped and a paper receipt printed out for his signature. I warned him this would be viewed as 2 transactions and he didn't believe me!

[robin9342]

 

According a HSBC senior person :

 

Up to 40 minutes after any chip&pin/card transaction, the retailer may access your confidential details and submit any number of further transactions (or cancel the original and submit a new transaction) without your presence or consent. This is perfectly legal practice. The onus is then on the customer to challenge these subsequent transactions with their bank, once the customer actually becomes aware of them

How can this possibly be legal practice. Surely its theft or fraud? In addition to sheer stupidity on the part of the banks!

[buzby]

Possibly another ' mistaken' senior person? The Hong Kong & Shanghai Banking Corporation (HSBC) have got it wrong many times before. I'be looked at the rules for card merchants and cannot see where this waiver exists - so as for it being acceptable/legal, I very much doubt it. Not only this, I cannot find such a waiver provided as part of the C&P rules.

[JimmyTheOne]

Another benefit of Chip & Signature - I saw one customer in front of me at a hotel being asked AFTER he entered his PIN (and it was accepted) that due to the paper receipt not working, the card was swiped and a paper receipt printed out for his signature. I warned him this would be viewed as 2 transactions and he didn't believe me!

 

As a Chip & Signature Card Holder Buzby, You don't have a PIN and are never prompted to enter one. Counter staff are informed to remove your card and check your signature.

 

Things about PIN's if the card industry hard and software can't keep PINs secret.

 

A miniaturised interceptor inserted inside the terminal copies the information on the card's magnetic strip and picks up the pin.

 

Mr Harris said: "Any retail outlet that has a chip-and-pin terminal is vulnerable, perhaps a corner shop or takeaway food premises."

 

Then how can they hold victims of PIN based fraud liable by accusing them of being negligent with their PIN?

[buzby]

I most certainly don't have a PIN, but the cardholder in front of me did, and was expected to comply by providing a PIN AND signature - why cardholders are not advised of this further abuse to their rights eludes me.

 

Actually at Shell auto-pay pumps, with no PIN, the fuel is dispensed without any formality!

[robin9342]

Actually at Shell auto-pay pumps, with no PIN, the fuel is dispensed without any formality!

 

Yes, although I believe there is a daily limit in place.

[buzby]

Does kinda make a mockery of the 'security' aspect though....!

[robin9342]

Yes. Likewise the fact that anyone who sees you enter your PIN in a shop could then steal your card (possibly by violent means), then proceed to take money from your account at a cashpoint.

 

It might be difficult for some people, but perhaps there should be the facility to use different PINs for shopping and cash machines.

[JimmyTheOne]

The only positive thing about Pay at The Pump (No PIN or Signature Required) is that if there is any fraud, the retailer coughs up, they take the hit and think this is acceptable.

 

Remember the Chip & PIN people saying you couldn'nt use cloned cards and PINs in UK ATM's anymore, and that all the cloned cards and PINs were being used overseas?

 

CCTV shows the cashpoint thief who plundered £10,000 in just two hours using 49 cloned credit cards

 

 

Article click here.

[buzby]

Agreed - but add to this none of the P@P or indeed Bank ATMS read the chip at all! And the banks are now looking at NO-CHIP cards (well, RFID) but you know what I mean, which to my mind is even less secure than the original chip!

[JimmyTheOne]

Buzby, concur contactless cards are a crooks dream.

 

Just picked this up from the Irish Independent:

 

"

At the time that 'chip and pin' technology was introduced, it was spun by the banks as a great fraud buster and an example of their technological investment in protecting clients' cash.

The real purpose of the technology was to shift financial responsibility for security lapses from the banks' balance sheet and on to the customer. "

 

Article click here.

 

Slightly off topic but Nationwide aren't the only ones who misplace laptops:

 

Bank of Ireland do too.

 

Story click here.

[dilbert1]

Hadn't heard about the banks looking at RFID (but assumed it would happen at some point).

The good thing with them doing this?? Google 'rfid zapper'...