Excel/DCBL ANPR PCN - Appealed - 5minutes overstay - iceland gravesend

[jasowter]

 

1 The date of infringement? 28th dec 2023

2 Have you yet appealed to the parking company yet? [Y/N?] yes

If you have then please post up whatever you sent and how you sent it and the date you sent it,

suitably redacted. [as a PDF- follow the upload guide]cant do that - will have to get my son to do it when he visits

Has there been a response? yes

Please AS A PDF FILE  ONLY ..post it up as well, suitably redacted. - follow the upload guide]cant do that - will have to get my son to do it when he visits

If you haven't appealed yet - .........DONT ! seek advice on your topic first.

Have you received a Notice To Keeper? (NTK) [must be received by you between 29-56 days] yes

What date is on it? 15th january 2024

Did the NTK provide photographic evidence? yes

[scan up BOTHSIDES to ONE PDF of the PCN and your NTK - follow the upload guide] please LEAVE IN LOCATION AND ALL DATES/TIMES/£'scant do that - will have to get my son to do it when he visits

3 Did the NTK mention Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) [Y/N?] not on the front - maybe on the back but cannot find the letter now

4 If you appealed after receiving the NTK,

did the parking company give you any information regarding the further appeals process?

[it is well known that parking companies will reject any appeal whatever the circumstances] yes

5 Who is the parking company? excel

6. Where exactly [Carpark name and town] did you park? gravesend in iceland

................................

 

hi all,

i will list my circumstances first then list the details of the parking charge - we are 2 disabled people being affected by the cost of living crisis and are skint etc.

i am disabled with mobility issues(arthritis in knees and ankles and gout) and cant operate car pedals anymore so i let a friend up the road use my car in exchange for her driving me about.

its a good arrangement as i get a 'chauffer' and she gets the use of car. the car is parked in her drive which is better as i was refused a disabled space (even on appeal) and too much congestion to park the car outside my house.

my friend is vulnerable as she has suffered depression since the loss of her mother a few years back, she is dyslexic, she is a carer for one of her sons that is disabled due to mental illness and mobility. she lives in a council house and cannot work.

we went to iceland ..attracted by the 10items for £10 offer - we've never been there before.

a large artic lorry was parked across the car park blocking the view of one of the parking signs and blocking the disabled bays where the pay&display machine is.

by the time she helped me out of the car and then went to see if it was pay&display then came back to me at the car she said she thinks it was pay even for disabled, swe looked for change in the car which we didnt have (she normally goes asda which dont need to pay for parking)so then we said we'd either go get change or go to asda...so then by the time it took her to help me back in and get out the car park took 15 minutes...5 minutes overstay past the 10minutes grace.

the letter from excel parking came through and i sent it back giving her name as driver (before i saw on here that you shouldnt name the driver)

then i appealed explaining what happened (lorry blocking etc) and even said we were being discriminated (advised by citizen advice)as we are disabled and 15minutes is not long enough for a crippled disabled man and a woman with dyslexia to read and understand the sign and get out, then back in the car and look for change then get out the car park in 15minutes. i even explained she was a vulnerable person on anti-depressants and even sent a photo of medication and said if you need a doctors note then let me know....the appeal was rejected.

i've emailed iceland over 50 times and they just wont tell excel to cancel this charge - they are ignorant and ive even asked them why they have a webpage saying 'iceland combatting the cost of living crisis' pretending to help their customers and they wont comment...they'd rather put more stress and anxiety on an already vulnerable person just to get money out of them..so their 'help' during this crisis is a lie as it wont even extend to disabled customers.

she has now received 2 letters from DCBL saying she owes £170 for 5minutes of overstay. the last one is a final demand.

as she cant read or write very well ive sent a recorded letter to DCBL (as advised by citizen advice) asking not to attend the property due to a vulnerable woman inside the property as it will only exasperate the situation, they have ignored it and said we dont care, you still owe.

could anyone please advise - we are not very good with letters or these situations and are slow on the uptake.

Edited May 15 by FTMDave
Removing refrence to suicide

[dx100uk]

25 minutes ago, jasowter said:

penalty charge

where does anything say its a penalty charge please?

sit on your hands , stop begging to everyone

await if/when you ever get a letter of claim.

thread title updated 

 

 

[jasowter]

 

yes schoolboy error - corrected to parking

begging?

im being polite,..following citizens advice..

when you have mental health issues and its causing more anxiety

m asking the people demanding money to stop as it will only make the situation worse.

the person in question is already in a lot of debt etc and cant pay it back and its not through irresponsibility that shes in debt

[Nicky Boy]

Hi Jas and welcome to CAG.

 

Well done for reading up around the forum. Shame you didn't come here before appealing.

Still, we are where we are.

35 minutes ago, jasowter said:

get out the car park took 15 minutes...5 minutes overstay past the 10minutes grace.

You also have 5 minutes "consideration" time, so no overstay at all.

You've already found out the hard way that these PPC's are the lowest of the low and just want your £££'s.

 

As long as you've only got demands and final demands so far you're ok. (You'll probably get a few more!)

If / when you get a letter of claim is the time to take action. (Snotty letter if you've been reading up on here.)

Anyway, when your son is available, upload all the missives you've got so far and a copy of your appeal and their rejection.

Is this the place?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4431645,0.3643912,3a,75y,228.26h,88.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssgS-tS92m3P_6STVzH4yqA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

There doesn't seem to be much in the way of signage. (The view is from 2022)

Any chance of getting some up to date readable pics of their signage next time your friend is out and about?

[FTMDave]

dx and Nick are spot on.

The letters are meant to make you panic. But in reality they are hamster bedding.  You're not being formally threatened with court. 

No-one from the parking company or DCBL will attend your friend's property.

Do I understand from your description that once you realised the terms & conditions of the car park that you left as soon as possible?

[Nicky Boy]

Also,

because she's utimately in the frame for this, you should really get your friend to sign up and involve herself in this thread.

[jasowter]

thanks nicky.

im trying..

ive never had a pcn.

im trying to read up and learn all this ...i may be slow as theres a lot to learn.

i can't afford this charge and my friend definitely wont be able to pay even if it goes to court.

didnt know about this website until google searched excel ..as was considering writing them a letter of explanation about the vulnerability of my friend as im worried she might suffer a breakdown.

i think excel did send photos of the signs - there are 2 main ones...but one was blocked by an artic as you drive in - also if you look at the building there is a loading door next to pay&display machine which blocks the disabled bays too...so you cant drive to the bays opposite the machine only the joining bays a you go in..

if the disabled bays as you drive in are full and the artic is there delivering...disabled people cant get to the other disabled bays and pay machine...quite wrong really considering theres more accessible non disabled bays that aren't blocked by the loading lorry

hello ftdave - yes when we realised we had to pay and realised we didnt have any coins or any coins in the car ashtray for the machine we left...

it may have taken  more minutes than an able bodied person because i cant move as fast as i used to because of my arthritis

[dx100uk]

13 minutes ago, jasowter said:

the person in question is already in a lot of debt etc

we can help with this and probably make 85% vanish

if you want too start a new thread and tell us about it all.

NEVER EVER PAY A DEBT COLLECTOR!! they are NOT BAILIFFS!!
dx

 

[FTMDave]

Then you did exactly what you were supposed to do.  It's common sense that you would need extra time compared to an able bodied person.

But Excel and its sister company VCS are the lowest of the low.  We have cases where they have ticketed people for stopping in a no-stopping zone near an airport - at a zebra crossing.  I'm not joking.  We have another case where someone caused a taxi to stop by stepping in front of it, again in a no-stopping zone, so they ticketed the taxt driver, they actually expected the taxi driver to continue driving and to murder the pedestrian.  Again, I'm not joking.  These are the people you are dealing with.

Edited May 15 by FTMDave
Typo

[jasowter]

thank you ftmdave .

they sound like tthe lowest of the low ticketing the taxi driver - surprised about that and utterly stupid.

would they take into consideration that we take longer than normal on another appeal as i did say that in the original one (that i done for my friend) and (i think it was the isa) they rejected the explanation?

Edited May 15 by jasowter

[FTMDave]

So to sum up.

1.  You & your friend did the right thing on 28 December and are in the right legally.

2.  You are in the early stages of the threatening letter cycle.  We've seen these letters quite literally over 10,000 times.  For the moment your friend has nothing to worry about.

3.  No-one will turn up at your friend's door.

4.  If months down the line this got to court, you would win.  It's blatant disability discrimination.  Some time back I looked through the results of Excel v Caggers court cases, well we won 85% of the time, and you would be 100& certain to win.

But this is the bit that you won't like ...

5.  Excel don't care that they are legally in the wrong.  They want your money.  They will go on and on with their letters hoping you'll give in.

6.  They are also the most litigious of the private parking companies and it's perfectly possible, months hence, that they will take your friend to court.  You have to be prepared for this.  They would lose.  But they don't care about the losses since, sadly, presumably so many people are afraid of court and so give in and pay. 

7.  We will of course support you all the way!

[jasowter]

thanks ftmdave.thats very reassuring

[FTMDave]

You mention that Iceland have been useless, and that has been our experience too in other cases.

However, have you escalated to CEO level?  https://www.ceoemail.com/s.php?id=ceo-9061&c=Iceland Foods-Chief Executive

If not, it has to be worth an e-mail.  Mention immediately, first line, that you are disabled and have been a victim of disability discrimination on the part of the shop's agents.

The idea may fail miserably, but nothing ventured ...

[jasowter]

no ftmdave ive not emailed at ceo level..i did not know you could do that....but i will do now, thanks.

ive just been wasting time emailing to customer complaints department

[FTMDave]

I do disagree with you regarding one thing - we are not very good with letters or these situations and are slow on the uptake.

So far you have stood up to Excel and their threats, immediately given us the information in the sticky, done loads of reading up to educate yourselves, learnt from the mistake of outing the driver so you'll know not to do so in the future, got on to the organ grinder to try to get them to call off their dogs, etc., etc.  Good grief - we wish everyone who came here would do this!!!

Most people who get these invoices sadly think they have been fined and if they don't pay a drone from Ukraine will be diverted and will fall on their home (or some such vague grand apocalyptic threat) and they fold and give in.  You haven't.  Well done.

Don't worry - you won't be paying a penny.  Although it will take some time to see off this vile company.

[jasowter]

thanks again ftmdave, your words are verey encouraging and i do appreciate them.

i have taken about 2 hours to think of a letter to write to the ceo...i will paste it below...also how would i address a ceo? do i just put his name? or put dear sir?

do you think its ok?  i would appreciate feedback/input from anybody if anything needs to be added/taken away, removed if incorrect etc.

i am writing it on behalf of my friend..she is the named driver  - im the one with the blue badge and owner of the car - just for clarification.

thanks in adavance to everyone.

 

 

 

My friend and I are both disabled and have been a victim of disability discrimination on the part of your agents.

 

I have been incorrectly 'charged' by your agent 'excel parking' for overstaying in your car park, but there was no overstay. The letter I recieved said the duration of stay was 15 minutes but there is a 10 minute grace period and also 5 minutes consideration time, hence there was no duration of stay of 15 minutes.

 

I would like to take this oppertunity to clarify what happend at your Gravesend store. We are struggling finacially due to the 'cost of living crisis' and not being able to work because we are both disabled, we was attracted to your store for the 10 items for £10 offer. I suffer dyslexia and depression and my friend who I take shopping has a mobility disability. We went to buy some shopping at your Gravesend branch of Iceland on 28th of December 2023, we entered your car park, tried to read and understand the parking signs and realised we had to pay for parking. We then realised we didnt have any change for the parking machine so went back to look for coins in the car and when we couldnt find any we left.

As my friend has mobility issues it takes some time for me to help him out of the car, as you probably understand this takes more time than it would a normal able bodied person. As I suffer dyslexia I am sure you'll agree that it took me more time than a normal person to read and understand the large amount of information at the pay & display machine. After this, it took more time than an able bodied person to leave the car park especially as I have to help my friend on his crutches etc get back into the car due to his mobility disability. All this took us 15 minutes.

 

I was the driver of my friends car and he has a blue badge.

He then received a 'notice to keeper' for a 'failure to purchase a parking tariff'.

On the letter it asked to name the driver if you wasnt the driver at the time, so as he wasnt the driver he named me.

I appealed the charge and told them we are disabled and explained the situation as above.

The appeal was denied, and even more so was totally ignored regarding our disabilities and that we take longer than an able bodied person to access the car and read the signs and understand them. As our disabilities were ignored and disregarded for the time taken I believe this is discrimination against us.

I cannot afford any unfair charges of this kind as I am severely struggling financially. I cannot work and am a carer for my disabled Son who also has a mental and mobility disability. I obviously do not have any disposable income and am in debt with my bills. So its an absolute impossibility for me to pay this incorrect charge.

 

 

After being discriminated by your agent my friend decided to contact 'iceland customer care team' on my behalf and again explained the situation and also sent photos of his disabled blue badge and proof of disability. He asked the care team to cancel the charge as ultimately its Iceland's land/property and you have the power over excel parking to cancel it.

Again we was met with no mention or consideration for our disability and no direct response regarding the cancellation, all we was told was to contact excel parking.

He has replied over 20 times to try to get the 'care team' to understand and cancel this but its pointless as we are just ignored every time. I believe that Ignoring our disability is discrimination which is why I am now contacting you.

 

 

I have noticed on your website that you are 'acting' to ease the 'cost of living crisis' :

https://about.iceland.co.uk/2022/04/05/iceland-acts-to-ease-the-cost-of-living-crisis/

 

If you really are commited to helping people in this time of crisis ..and especially two struggling disabled people, can you please cancel this charge as it will only cause more damage to our mental health if you do not.

 

[FTMDave]

That is superb.

To answer your question - Dear Mr Dhaliwal

Change the sentence - As our disabilities were ignored and disregarded for the time taken I believe this is discrimination against us ...

To - As our disabilities were ignored and disregarded for the time taken I believe this is discrimination against us contrary to the Equality Act 2010.

Iceland have always been useless, not only in your case but in others, but I think if they realise they are breaking the law it will encourage them to act.

I also think the letter is overlong and you could lose the paragraph - I cannot afford any unfair charges of this kind as I am severely struggling financially. I cannot work and am a carer for my disabled Son who also has a mental and mobility disability. I obviously do not have any disposable income and am in debt with my bills. So its an absolute impossibility for me to pay this incorrect charge - as the main points are made elsewhere.

 

[lookinforinfo]

I am sorry that you have come across excel -possibly the most inhumane of all the rogues that ruin parking in private car parks. i am more sorry that I have missed your thread until now.

As I understand it, their artic. was parked in front of their parking sign and the Blue badge places forcing you to stop somewhere else in the car park to observe the rules. On realising that even the Blue badge places were paid places and that you did not have the correct coinage you quite rightly decided to leave. Thus you had read their terms and until you have read them and signified your acceptance by either paying or staying, you are not classed as being parked.  You have a MINiMUM of five minutes  leave. Sadly Excel do not understand any words greater than two syllables which is where their problems start. Their greed, ignorance, inhumanity, etc etc all carry on from there.

However they do know that Judges do understand what minimum means and are well aware of the Equality Act  so I wouldn't be too worried about what excel  will do. Plus we still have to see their PCN and when it comes to producing a Notice that complies with the Act relating to private car parks they do not excel at that.

I hope that the Iceland MD will cancel the ticket. You still have a couple of other routes you could try. The first one is your Member of Parliament will probably be happy to help as they will need all the votes they can get with an election looming. Plus your local newspaper may also pitch in after hearing your story to go after Iceland and excel. [You may notice I have not merite them with a capital E as it is definitely undeserved.]

[jasowter]

thanks ftmdave again for the help with letter.

thanks lookinforinfo for the info, im glad i found this forum as its a great comfort and relief to know ive dont the right thing as i wasnt too sure at first. and good to know what excel are really like.

 

thanks guys.

[FTMDave]

Any reply from Iceland?

[jasowter]

yes - ive just checked emails and got this reply, (no mention of discrimination) :

Thank you for contacting our Executive Chairman Mr Richard Walker OBE, my name is Lauren and I work as a part of the Executive Resolutions Team here at Iceland Foods Ltd.

I am truly sorry to hear you have recently received a parking charge, I can confirm I am currently looking into this for you and have passed the details of this over to another department. Once additional information has been provided from this, I will be back in touch to discuss this further.

 

Again, I am sorry about this, I will be back in touch as soon as possible.

 

Kindest regards,

Lauren

[FTMDave]

In every other case we have Iceland have just immediately washed their hands of the matter and said to contact the parking company.

The fact they have not done so in your case is promising!

But obviously you're not out of the woods yet.

 

[lookinforinfo]

Jasowter I hope that common sense prevails with Iceland and the whole matter can be successfully ended. I would perhaps not have used a spell checker just to prove the dyslexia  though it may have made it more difficult to read.

I noticed that you haven't uploaded the original PCN .Might not be necessary if the nes from Iceland is good. Otherwise perhaps you could get your son to do it by following the upload instructions so that we can appeal again with the extra ammunition provided by the PCN. Most of them rarely manage to get the wording right which means that you as the keeper are not liable to pay the charge-only the driver is and they do not know the name and address of the driver. So that would put you both in the clear if the PCN is non compliant.