Big Motoring World/Blackhorse finance Faulty car AO68 YEK - repair under warranty? did not resolve issue - what are my options now

[BankFodder]

Please can you tell us exactly the date on which you bought the car.
I'm interested to see that you live on the Isle of Wight and yet the car was bought some distance away. Why was this?

Please tell us about the vehicle. Make, model, mileage, price paid.

Did have an MOT? What was the date of the MOT? Which garage provided the MOT certificate?

What date did you inform the dealer of the defects? Did you do this in writing? Did you attend to reject the vehicle in writing or only on the telephone?

Please will you have a look at these questions carefully and address each one of them.

Have you contacted the finance company?

Where is the vehicle now? Is it driveable?

[BankFodder]

Thank you.

You say that you rejected the vehicle on 20 December. Please can you post up the message that you sent them on 20 December.

You will have needed to assert your reaction within 30 days of the date of the contract. When did you actually collect the vehicle?

How do you find the vehicle? Was it advertised? Please can you post up the advertisement here.

You may need to go and get a new MOT straightaway – these letters have the answers to the above questions

[BankFodder]

You don't incriminate yourself but no don't send it yet. Please stand by for a reply later on this morning

[BankFodder]

We are happy that you use our materials.

The problem is whether you use them in the right way and on time.

I'm afraid I still don't have much time today but we are on the verge of the weekend so frankly there is no hurry.

One of your problems here is that you are doing things on the telephone. This means that you have no record of having complained or rejected or anything.

you must do things directly in writing or if you have to do something on the telephone then confirm in writing immediately. You should be using email to all these people.

As it is, I understand that you have no record of anything in particular – no record of a rejection within the 30 days and also no record that you did not consent to some attempt to repair.

I'm afraid that even though this appeared to be the only vehicle available when you were on the Isle of Wight, you are now paying the price of buying at such long distance. It is an added complication which you didn't need.

The full liability of course is with the finance company because I understand that this is on hire purchase. However I don't see anything in this thread that suggests that you have tried to reject the vehicle or have any written exchange with the hire purchase company. Why not?

You are paying them interest – not only for the loan but also in exchange for their responsibility for the vehicle.

I'm afraid that I disagree with my site team colleague that one or two days over at Christmas time is not going to make a difference. The 30 days is a statutory provision. It's not 30 working days. It's not 30 days excluding public holidays and bank holidays. It is 30 days.

As far as I understand the rule – you have the right to reject any item which manifests defects within 30 days and insist on a full refund. You have to assert the right and you have to do it within the 30 days otherwise you lose it.

Everything I understand here suggest that you have lost the right to intermediate refund.

If a defect manifests itself within the first six months, you have to give the seller a single opportunity to repair and if they either refuse to repair or if the repair fails then you are entitled to reject the item for a full refund.

The right should be asserted with the hire purchase company because it is their liability. I don't know what a court would say. If they were pragmatic about it then they might accept the rejection to the dealer would suffice. But strictly speaking it seems to me that the six months right to reject after a declined or failed repair has to be asserted to the party with whom you have the contract and that would be the hire purchase company.

I'm afraid I will have to stop now as I have an appointment to keep but I will continue later on.

You say that the car is not working any more. Is it actually un-driveable? Where is it stored?

Also, I think it would be in your interests to get a new MOT. If the vehicle fails on its MOT then we may have a better basis for taking some rapid action.

[BankFodder]

 

[BankFodder]

If it fails the MOT then that would be very strong evidence that the car was unroadworthy and that it had been sold in that condition which is an offence against the Road traffic 1988 act – section 75.

We will probably be asking you to get an RAC inspection as well but let's get the MOT first of all.

Have you written to the finance company yet? Let's see a copy of what you sent them

[BankFodder]

Also asked you questions earlier on about the drivability of the vehicle and where it was now but you haven't answered.

It makes it very difficult when we ask questions and they are addressed. If you don't want to answer them please say so but at least we know that you have noticed the question.

A forum format is very time consuming but is the best you are going to get free of charge and so it will make life easier for you and certainly for the site team here if you can pay attention to what we are asking and give the answers.
As far as the relevance of those questions – we don't know the relevance until you give us the answers.

 

In terms of your subject access request eliciting the recordings – don't hold your breath.

Don't imagine that any of these people you are dealing with including the finance company are going to be helpful.

My view of the consumer rights act is that it is frankly a failure. It sounds great have this 30 day right and then the six months right but we haven't found any car dealer so far that has been prepared to respect those rights. That means that enforcing the rights normally needs court action and that can take as long as a year if they don't put their hands up first.

Use car industry is a disreputable industry by and large. I'm sure there are some good ones but of course we only get the bad ones here. I hope you watched our little video presentation.

Also in terms of telephone calls, have you read our customer services guide? These links are plastered all over the forum and we would expect you to be curious enough to investigate them

[BankFodder]

Have you raised the issue of the charge of the warranty on this thread before?

The thread is getting complicated but I can't say I have noticed that

Yes, it would be a good idea to wait until the light comes on again and then take it for its MOT.
Are there any other defects that you are aware of or is that it?

When you refer to phone calls that you have made – such as the one that you made and you are placed on hold for 48 minutes – please will you give the dates of these.

We lose the sense of the chronology you simply refer to phone calls without giving us any way of understanding when that call might have been made.

More importantly, you haven't explained to the finance company any of the dates so they have no sense of the chronology either other than you refer to things like – "four days after…" – "I was then…"

You also haven't explained what particular rights it is that you are trying to assert

You said that you received professional advice advice you not to conduct short journeys et cetera. Who gave you that advice and you have in writing?

The letter you have written is sort of okay but it could be a lot clearer. – I think it would be better if you ran draft examples past us before sending things off. You have come to us for advice after all.

Let's see what kind of reply you get by Wednesday. However, your letter gives a sense that you are reposing trust in them and that you are expecting them to treat you reasonably. Good luck

I understand that the situation is now that you have an appointment on 15 January – is that correct?

Is that to conduct a repair or what?

[BankFodder]

Well I think you have burnt your boats on the 30 days short-term right to reject.

I think you had probably better accept the appointment of the 15th. Now that you no longer enjoy the short-term right to reject I think you have to show that you are cooperating to deal with the problem.
I think you should write to the hire purchase company and copy it into the dealer.

Tell them that the dealership has arranged an appointment provisionally on 15 January to address the problems that you have been experiencing with the vehicle that they sold you through their hire purchase agreement on XXX date. You hope that the dealer has made them aware that the vehicle is almost done driveable to the extent that it can only be relied upon for short periods of time before the electronics within it have to be reset.

Tell them that as it is within six months of the date of purchase you are now asserting your right to reject the vehicle for a full refund subject to their single opportunity to repair the defect.

If they do not repair the defect on the 15th or if the repair fails then you will be requiring then to cancel a hire purchase agreement, to refund you all of your money plus interest paid and to make arrangements to collect the vehicle without any delay.

Tell them that they should acknowledge this letter but in any event you will be proceeding with the appointment on the 15th unless they as the hire purchase company and effectively the sellers the vehicle instruct you not to do this.

Post the draft here.

I would like to know more about the change warranty. If this happened after you purchase the vehicle with the warranty then this would be a breach of contract by them

[BankFodder]

I think you have burnt your boats in respect of the 30 day right to reject. You haven't asserted your rights in any meaningful way and certainly the phone call is deniable.

I really do hope that you can get the recordings in response to your SAR but I would be quite surprised.

If you had written evidence that you had asserted the right at the moment that you started to notice the defect - in other words about 4 days after you had purchased the vehicle then you would be quids in.

Please stand by for a further response tomorrow but in the meantime Please prepare the letter and post it up

I have now read your account about the change in the warranty. Do you have any written evidence of this

[BankFodder]

Please monitor this thread for a reply tomorrow.

The  information you have discovered about the warranty and the advertisements and the fact that it wasn't serviced before it was sold to you makes a substantial difference and will change our approach.

[BankFodder]

I'm trying to figure out what is the best thing to do.

Last night it seemed to be glaringly simple but this morning I feel it's a little more complicated as to the best way forward.

Certainly it is about time that you gave notice to the finance company. They are responsible for it. I think I've already made the point that they should have been informed right at the beginning and life would be much easier.
 

Quote

Dear XXX

Hire purchase agreement number XXX – vehicle registration number XXX

As you know, on XXX date you sold me a vehicle registration number XXX on a hire purchase agreement. The vehicle was supplied by your agents – Big Motoring World based in Wimbledon.
Within about four days of taking delivery of the vehicle it started to manifest problems and in fact one of the vehicle's system electronics had to be reset every 150 miles or so in order to keep it working.
This was immediately reported to your dealers on XXX date and a warranty repair was carried out at a another garage with the approval of your dealer.

The problem turned out to be a short-term repair and as I have explained above, the vehicle has to be taken to a repairer about every 150 miles for the electronics to be reset the vehicle ceases to function and can no longer be driven.

As I have already explained, I telephoned Big Motoring World on XXX date and not only did I inform them of the defect but I also informed them that I was asserting my right to reject the vehicle for a full refund under the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

Despite that, Big Motoring World has refused to accept the rejection even though they are obliged to by statute.

The fault with the vehicle is still persisting and effectively the car is unreliable because at any moment it may stop functioning until it has another system reset.

Separately, just three days ago on XXX date I received the papers including service history relating to the vehicle and it then became clear that the vehicle had not been properly serviced before I purchased it. In fact it had missed at least one schedule service.

Big Motoring World make it very clear on their website that the vehicles they sell are thoroughly checked. Also they claim to carry out all necessary servicing before the vehicle is delivered.
They have failed to do this.

On that basis, they are in breach of contract in that the vehicle does not match its description. When I decided to purchase a vehicle from Big Motoring World I relied on the specific description of the vehicle which they sold me and also on the representations that they made in respect of the steps they took to make sure that those vehicles were of good quality, well maintained and reliable.

I am in a position now where I have a vehicle which is effectively not driveable. Where I have attempted to assert my statutory to reject the vehicle and this has been refused. Where I have entered into a contract with you to provide me with a vehicle under a hire purchase agreement and yet in respect of which I have been deprived of substantially the whole benefit.

I am now confirming might rejection of the vehicle to you in writing.

I would like to know by return what steps you intend to take to arrange with your dealer to recover the vehicle and what steps you intend to take to cancel our hire purchase agreement and to refund me all of the money which I have paid so far and to bring this contract to an end.

Please note, that I am well aware that you are going to be reluctant to do this. I'm well aware that you are going to claim that you have to carry out investigation. I'm well aware that you are going to say that it will take you eight weeks to complete the investigation.

I'm putting your notice that I'm not prepared to abide by your timescales. I have a vehicle which doesn't work and so time is of the essence.

If you oblige me to, I will take the necessary legal action Small Claims Court.

I would remind you of your FCA duty under the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 to treat me fairly and to communicate with me fairly.
I would also remind you of the new FCA "consumer duty" and which you have an obligation to produce "good outcomes" for your customers.

Yours

Signed

I suggest that you sent this letter immediately. By email and also by post. Send it to the hire purchase company and send a copy to the dealer.

Although this is not actually taking action, by this you are finally putting them on notice as to exactly what has happened and what you're looking for.

As I think I have already said, don't imagine this is going to be easy. If they grind their heels in then I expect that they will require inspections, eight weeks to carry out some kind investigation. I expect they will also say that you have failed to assert your rights correctly – or at all.

I do hope that you get the recordings you are looking for in response to your SAR – but frankly I can imagine that you will have a lot of difficulty. If you do get them of course then the whole thing is fairly slamdunk although you will still have to force them to comply.

I'm not sure what to do about your appointment on the 15th. It is only a diagnosis.

What happens if they do repair it and they do carry out the service et cetera. Would you be happy to keep the vehicle or do you simply want to get shot of it?

Don't forget, that if you get rid of it then you are in a position where you have to buy another vehicle and the whole sorry tale might start again with another dealer.

One advantage of showing some muscle to this lot is that they will start to take you seriously and they will be very careful to make sure that the vehicle is in good condition and that any future difficulties will be dealt with properly because they will realise what will happen.

On that basis you might decide that it is in your interests that having bared your teeth, you get the vehicle repaired and you use it in the full knowledge that if anything else goes wrong within a reasonable period of time – meaning several years, that they are likely to be a bit more attentive to their statutory duty.

You start dealing with the new dealer then you may well have to deliver some "training" to them all over again.

Have a look at the above proposed letter. Please correct it or suggest amendments. Fill in the dates. Add anything or take anything away that I have misunderstood or missed out and post your final draft here.

[BankFodder]

Good question about the stamp. I would expect the book to be stamped because it is something that you would have to supply to anybody you sold it to.
Let's see what they say.

In terms of the letter, fill in the blanks and post it here before you send it. I'd like to see it before it is sent

I understand what you are saying in terms of rejecting the vehicle – but you are now acting on principle rather than pure pragmatics and economics.

Believe me, it will be more satisfying to remain a troublesome client of theirs then to walk away and then have to start dealing with another dealer who might give you exactly the same kind of problem or even worse.

I can imagine that once you make headway and you force them to act, they will be pleased to see the back of you. If you would answer satisfaction, you can make sure the car is in proper condition – properly maintained by them – and make them wary of crossing you.

Although it's not very noble, that is a much nicer place to be.

The only difficulty here is that you have for whatever reason bought a car which is about 80 miles away – 160 miles round trip.
That is something that is going to dog you for the next few years of ownership.
To my mind that would be the only pragmatic reason for getting rid of the vehicle – but then to learn your lesson and even though it may take longer time, by vehicle a lot closer.

I'm afraid people don't think of these things they buy vehicles. We have had people on this forum who have lived in Scotland and have bought vehicles from people south of London.
They came to regret it very quickly.

We could get you into a position where you reject the vehicle but then forego the rejection in return for a reduction in the price.

That is another interesting outcome that could be thought about.

[BankFodder]

24 minutes ago, Nicky Boy said:

 

They can't suddenly say the service history is online. 

I think that the book is really only evidential. It would be very sloppy of them to have a service book but could not keep it up to date but if the vehicle really had been serviced and there was evidence of that elsewhere, for instance online – then I think the fact that the book hasn't been stamped is a very minor issue.
However I sort of imagine that main dealers – sellers of new cars could well keep a database of new vehicles and their service histories et cetera. I can scarcely imagine that a second-hand dealer would bother to do that.

[BankFodder]

Of course it's a matter for you but I think it's a bit oversimplifying things if you imagine you will then get another vehicle which will be perfectly okay.
I hope it will – but you can't be sure – and at least if the fault in this vehicle is correctly diagnosed and repaired and if you have asserted yourself with the dealer the finance company, then you might have an easier time of it later on.

I'm really just enlarging your scope of options. That probably makes things more difficult for you but anyway it's up to you of course.

I asked you in an earlier question if there were any other problems with the vehicle now that you have driven it a little bit – but you didn't respond

[BankFodder]

I have no idea. Sorry.

Maybe someone else who understands these things will come along

[BankFodder]

Please check back tomorrow

[BankFodder]

Well done on your result so far. This is excellent news.

We can help you recover all the rest of the money that you are owed.

Let us know when you have got the refund that they have agreed to in your bank account.

In the meantime, please list up all of your losses – any shortfall, expenses, cost of repairs et cetera.

List them all here in bullet pointed fashion together with dates and we will help you get them back. Your chances of success almost 100%

[BankFodder]

Yes, I hadn't appreciated the separate issue of the finance company.

If they give you any problems we will deal with them as well. It won't be difficult so don't worry.

Get your money back from BMW And then give us a list of all your losses and let us know what is happening with the finance company.

I will be amazed if the finance company want to cause any trouble over this but if they do then we can almost guarantee you how success against them

[BankFodder]

Okay. Thanks.

Let us know when the money has arrived and then we will proceed for the rest.

 

[BankFodder]

Okay. Please prepare a properly structured and bullet pointed list of losses. If you aren't sure about whether or not a loss is recoverable then include it here and we can form an opinion.

To begin with, dates, work carried out, cost.

The whole idea is that you should be out of pocket=zero.

There should be no improvement in their situation so they should be obliged to pay for any improvements that you have made to the vehicle.

I haven't gone back through the whole thread so you will have to remind us about how long you had the vehicle and how much used did you have out of it during that time.

Any expenses etc caused by taxis blah blah blah will have to be dealt with a game Steve finance company separately.

I hope you are keeping a detailed list of all expenses incurred with receipts in support.

We will Draft a letter to the finance company later on today

[BankFodder]

What has the finance company said about it all? Have they given you any time scales or deadlines?

[BankFodder]

Thank you.

I feel we should almost asked you to start a new thread so that we can get a brief summary and then start this new claim from zero.

For the moment, could you please refresh our memories. I'm sure that it is on this thread already but let's get a timeline of events.

Just a list please.

Date – purchase the vehicle
date appeared
date communicated with BMW
they communicate with finance company – et cetera.

£1000 is a no-brainer – I don't really understand why they are withholding it. Have you an expert nation?

With they given notice about the diagnostic and the further investigation?
I had the impression that you had had a lot of work done on the vehicle and that there were a number of improvements. This is not to be the case other than a clogged injector.
Were BMW or the finance company given notice of this?
You say that you drove 400 miles to return the car to the dealer. Does this mean that you live 400 miles away from the dealer?

Now that BMW has accepted the rejection – do you have this in writing from them? Please can you post it here?
You have informed the finance company about this – when? Please could you post them message that you send them informing this?

There are quite a few questions which will have to be asked in order to prepare the ground you can be certain that BMW won't be happy so we need to be thoroughly ready. Did you sign anything with BMW? Full and final settlement, for instance?
Sorry to ask you to go over this all again. I'm not able at the moment to work through the thread and it would be helpful if you can just give a bullet pointed list of the events that have happened and a few escalations.

It will be worth it in the end.



 

[BankFodder]

Thank you. That is helpful.

When you originally rejected the vehicle, did you do in writing? Do have a copy of that?

The deposit issue then is rather more complicated than we had first understood. He said that they were simply refusing to return the deposit that now I am starting to understand that you part exchanged it with a vehicle which had some outstanding finance on it and they had to satisfy that finance. Is that correct?
If that is the case then that certainly means that you would have been spared having to complete the finance agreement for that vehicle so you had some benefit from that. So I understand that you are owed £744 on the previous vehicle which they settled and they then returned the balance from £1000 to you in order to settle the deposit issue.
Is this correct?

You said that they offered to give you £70 back towards the diagnostic cost that you have not received this. Was the offer made in writing?

You have told us that the rejection was finally accepted on 31 January.
You have told us that by 5 January the rejection had been refused – but you don't tell us what date you actually made the rejection.
Was the rejection refused in writing?

 

[BankFodder]

I am trying to work my way round this.

It seems to me that the way that the deposit refund was calculated is probably correct and so you wouldn't be able to recover the remains of the money.
This leaves the rest of the outgoings. I shall have a closer look at these later on.

I see that the only written evidence of a rejection is dated 4 January which is just over the 30 day rule which brings you into the six-month rule and which provides that they are entitled to a single opportunity to repair.
I'm understanding that you incurred expenses having it repaired because they suddenly change the terms of the warranty and so they wouldn't cover a repair by the garage that the car was already with. Is this correct?