PPL PRS/Pannone - claimform - unpaid auto rolled music performance licence for online Zumba Classes that closed months before rollover. *Claim Dismissed**

[AndyOrch]

8 minutes ago, Beesnees said:

Is not an agreement implied in the claim? No  Does not the PoClaim rely on the assumed existence of such a document? No only a speculative invoice So you're saying that the claim is based exclusively on a manufactured breach of the relevant legislation?  Yes If that's the case, do the points you raised above about 'strict proof' come into play in the CPR31 Request? No because CPR 31.14 can only request documents "mentioned /stated/referred to within the particulars not implied. See CPR 31 of the Civil procedure rules if you doubt me.

Yes, I have a copy of both the invoice on which the claim is based, and a full stmt of her a/c since inception. Both provide me with solid grounds for an unassailable counterclaim. Excellent and you also have it in writing that she owes nothing as per your recent post ? The legislation can [presumably] be found on-line, so making it the subject of the CPR Request would seem to be an exercise in futility and redundancy. Yes the legislation is readily available on line but they refer to " the terms "  of the legislation that this money is due and that is what their claim is based on .

Now here is the legislation they rely on ...you have a run through it and find which part supports their claim and which its based on  and how they arrive at £105.00

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/contents

 

[Beesnees]

OK, understood, and of course I believe you. For some reason, I just seem to recall seeing somewhere during the course of these exchanges that an implied Agreement constituted grounds for a CPR 31 Request. But does that also now render a request for a copy of the Assignment redundant? If so, there are, for all practical purposes, virtually no docs that I need to request under the provisions of CPR31.

Gonna take a closer look at that PoClaim.

Quote

... and you also have it in writing that she owes nothing as per your recent post ? 

Unfortunately not. This was said to her during the course of a tel/con, and I doubt she asked them to put it in writing, let alone asked for their name. They say that tel/cons are [sometimes] recorded for training purposes, etc. If a recording exists, can she request a copy of the tape, or a transcript of the call?

PS: I assume by 'terms', he is referring to the provisions of the legislation itself.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Beesnees
PS

[AndyOrch]

The devil is in the detail Particulars of claim are drafted very carefully in a way not to admit any liability nor to give you anything to add to a defence we refer to them as vague and for that very reason. The same will go for an initial defence response which will not commit or admit liability but questions the validity of the claimant's claim.

Well by " terms " that's for you to determine what they refer or alluding to...there are no terms in that legislation that states a breach can be considered a criminal offence or imposed by way of a trumped up fine.

Criminal offences are considered or determined in Magistrates or Crown Courts ...local county courts deal with civil /family claims. This is a civil claim and the claimant is (from reading between the lines on the google search I posted earlier have never actually tried a court claim) so yours could be a test claim...but then they will not expect a defence to be submitted to test their claim so they may well discontinue once that is submitted....but lets see.

[Beesnees]

You mean that when I file my defence, I have to keep my best arguments in reserve for the hearing? No guns blazing? No firing on all 6 cylinders? Shazbot.

Anyroad, AoS now submitted - a day later than I intended. The jury is still out on whether I'll send that CPR Request. There is nothing they can disclose that I can't find out for myself, and it will in any case almost certainly alert them to an unexpected skill set on the part of the defendant. 

I want them to sleepwalk into a brick wall of a defence, and the less they know, the better.

[dx100uk]

18 minutes ago, Beesnees said:

You mean that when I file my defence, I have to keep my best arguments in reserve for the hearing? No guns blazing? No firing on all 6 cylinders? Shazbot.

ALWAYS keep all bullets unload you dont hint at anything giving them time to fake stuff up

never reveal your cards until you have seen their Witness statement and their exhibits.

dx

 

[AndyOrch]

24 minutes ago, Beesnees said:

You mean that when I file my defence, I have to keep my best arguments in reserve for the hearing? No guns blazing? No firing on all 6 cylinders? Shazbot.

Anyroad, AoS now submitted - a day later than I intended. The jury is still out on whether I'll send that CPR Request. There is nothing they can disclose that I can't find out for myself, and it will in any case almost certainly alert them to an unexpected skill set on the part of the defendant. 

I want them to sleepwalk into a brick wall of a defence, and the less they know, the better.

You have a lot to learn...I would suggest you read a few topics by others on the process of defending a claim then we don't get to page 6 of your topic before a defence is even submitted 

Actually I would send a CPR 31.14 as a general request for all intended disclosures on which their claim will rely upon as lets see how litigious they are and could possibly fire a warning shot that this will not be a default judgment with no response...they will already be aware you are defending by was of your AOS.

[Beesnees]

Quote

"You have a lot to learn..."

Clearly. That's why I'm here 'talking' to you.

@dx100uk - So no decision is made on the strength of the initial defence? I must make it as vague, banal and anodyne as possible? Then ambush them at the hearing? Is that the gist of my strategy? Have I got it about right?

PS: Isn't that a breach of disclosure rules?

Edited June 29, 2023 by Beesnees

[honeybee13]

You're not at disclosure stage though, are you? I don't think anyone is suggesting not disclosing properly when the time comes.

HB

[Beesnees]

@honeybee13 - Gotcha.

[Beesnees]

Quote

Actually I would send a CPR 31.14

The invoice that forms the basis of their claim (which IS mentioned in the PoClaim), says:

"This invoice sets out the royalties due for TheMusicLicence for the royalty period specified in the enclosed Usage Summary, which contains the details of your music usage."

Since my daughter never received the original invoice, let's assume for the sake of argument that she has never received/seen this "Usage Summary" either. So, not explicitly mentioned in the PoClaim in its own right, but part of a document that is mentioned. Can I make it the subject of my CPR31 Request?

 

[dx100uk]

yes but 9/10 ....no-one ever responds to anything till witness statement time mostly anyway.

you are really getting hung up on lots of things that dont matter for weeks and weeks yet...or bravado or stand up for her/your rights/rabbit holes...those have  no place in a court claim. 60posts now, most of them totally irrelevant... if you'd simply listened from the 1st few posts you'd be well on track and focused by now...

 

dx

 

[Beesnees]

Yeah, I get that a lot. No doubt, I'm a real pain in the gluteus, but most of those posts were generated in the course of seeking clarification, etc, so that criticism is a tad unfair. And I'm glad I did. Were it not for that clarification, by now I would have sent a CPR31 Request that would have been laughably wrong. At least I now have a chance of getting it right. And whether or not they respond is beside the point. 

In fact, unless I missed the reply, I'm still waiting for clarification on a CPR31 query asked above: namely, is it appropriate in these circumstances to request a copy of the Notice of Assignment of the debt to the claimant's sol'rs, bearing in mind this is not mentioned (or ever likely to be mentioned) in the PoClaim?

And as for the all the bravura, theatrics and hubris, etc etc, what makes you think any of that will find its way to her defence? When it comes to the crunch, I'm more than capable of speaking basic legalese.

 

[AndyOrch]

13 minutes ago, Beesnees said:

In fact, unless I missed the reply, I'm still waiting for clarification on a CPR31 query asked above: namely, is it appropriate in these circumstances to request a copy of the Notice of Assignment of the debt to the claimant's sol'rs, bearing in mind this is not mentioned (or ever likely to be mentioned) in the PoClaim?

Debt has not been assigned.

What will be helpful for later into the process if you could speak to your daughter and find out how exactly this agreement came about who approached who ? How was it agreed or entered into online phone etc ? 

[Beesnees]

I've put the question to her.

And thx for the clarification.

[Beesnees]

Her Reply

1. I knew I had to get a licence to play my music of choice for my dance classes online during lockdown, as I didn’t want to use copyright free music (it’s awful)… 

2. I am pretty sure I rang up and arranged it with them on the phone. 

3. They then followed up with an email confirmation with their t's+c's attached (which I didn't read) - the first email I ever received from them. 

4. Then they decided to stop covering for on-line exercise classes half way through the year, so I stopped the classes.

5. They continued to demand payment for subsequent years, even though I informed their debt collection agents at least dozens of times over the phone that the classes had ceased.

 

And that's all she wrote.

[Beesnees]

Help!!

Just tried to log on to MCOL to lodge her defence - multiple times. All I get is:

 

Quote

 

The following errors have occurred:

1. Claim number or password is incorrect.

 

Any ideas about what's going wrong here?

[dx100uk]

quite usual for a w/end crash

which is why we say FILE ON A FRIDAY by 4pm...

you'll have to wait till monday now for it to be reset.

 

dx

 

[Beesnees]

Makes sense. Thx.

[dx100uk]

On 23/06/2023 at 17:36, Beesnees said:

Date of issue – 16/06/2023

defence not due till by 4pm tues 18th

dx

[Beesnees]

Not that it makes any difference to the timing of my reps, but I make it the 19th July,

[dx100uk]

read the court sticky you filled out.

claimform date is ONE in the count.

 

[Beesnees]

Got it. Yeah, that would account for the discrepancy. 

And if their system is still down on Mon/Tues, what then? Do I have any recourse?

[dx100uk]

only ever the w/end where no-one's there

but yes there are alternates like email. but it will be ok.

dx

 

[Beesnees]

[AndyOrch]

What defence are you submitting ? Post a draft here first.