Ticket for being 4 mins past bay restriction

[micia]

Today I was issued with a ticket (valid- checked for typos etc) by community police officers who were ticketing my car at 3 minutes past 4pm. They were typing it up as I approached and then handed it to me- first the envelope then the ticket AS it printed out. The one issuing it said he couldn't cancel it and I was 4 minutes past the time allowed which would mean if HE didn't ticket me the camera would automatically pick it up. I had a valid disabled badge and clock on display and the bay says 3 hours disabled parking allowed between 10am and 4pm. I remember reading elsewhere that traffic wardens have a "period of grace", like 5 minutes before they can ticket your vehicle (I think). I asked the community officer if the same applied to him but he said (though with a puzzled look) that as they were working on behalf of the MET police they were able to ticket instantly, is this true?

 

I have every intention of appealing, they watched my mother and I approach the car slowly (she has limited mobility), it was 3 minutes and they were printing the ticket while I tried to explain.

 

I'd be really grateful for some advice on this

[Bailiffchaser]

You could have driven off before the ticket was handed to you or affixed to the car. It would have been invalid. Anyway you should have 5 mins of grace. Appeal it and see what they say. pcos are police officers and you may need to attend court to appeal it.

[demon_x_slash]

I don't know how anyone ticketing anyone obviously disabled can sleep at night, personally.

[The Warden]

You could have driven off before the ticket was handed to you or affixed to the car. It would have been invalid. Anyway you should have 5 mins of grace.

 

 

Not strictly true.

 

Drive off as a ticket is being printed out and it's valid. The moment the details are in and the print button is pressed, it's a valid ticket. What normally happens if you drive off is the ticket details (VRM) get sent to DVLA Swansea and once the drivers address gets sent back to the authority the PCN get's mailed out. It's advisable to stay for the ticket rather than drive away as at least on the grounds of appeal you have all the details you need, i.e. PCN number, time of issue, who issued etc etc.

 

Anyway you should have 5 mins of grace.

 

Not strictly true.

In Westminster i know that if we issue a ticketwe go by a policy of a 2 minute grace period. I also know that we are the harshest borough for grace period, but what it means is, if a bay is enforcable at 1600hrs then we can't issue a ticket on that bay by law until 1603hrs. If the PCN printed says 1602hrs, then it needs to be reprinted. Kensington i think have a 5 minute period which means they print on the sixth minute, every borough is different.

 

Appeal it and see what they say. pcos are police officers and you may need to attend court to appeal it.

 

Every ticket (if you think has been wrongly issued) should be appealed. The grounds that this ticket may have been wrongly issued is the allowance of time for you to get back to your vehicle for 1600hrs. If the MET have a 3 minute grace period, then the ticket will be invalid and if you don't appeal it, they won't reject your payment for a non valid PCN.

 

Appeal.... don't pay. Well....not unless you have too

[Bailiffchaser]

A ticket is only valid if it is served on the car or driver. If the pa does not hand it to you or stick it to your car it has not been served.

[livelylad]

Where did you recieve the ticket? Town. Find out what their policy is regarding issuing of tickets. This will clear any confusion.

[micia]

Where did you recieve the ticket? Town. Find out what their policy is regarding issuing of tickets. This will clear any confusion.

 

Thankyou to everyone for their advice, it was in Finsbury Park- Borough of Islington. The officer said they do not have a period of grace as they were MET. Should I check with the MET?

[livelylad]

Thankyou to everyone for their advice, it was in Finsbury Park- Borough of Islington. The officer said they do not have a period of grace as they were MET. Should I check with the MET?

 

Yes get a copy of their policy. This will tell you were you stand. Each council /borough etc have different regulations.

[The Warden]

A ticket is only valid if it is served on the car or driver. If the pa does not hand it to you or stick it to your car it has not been served.

 

Met are different to Parking Attendants, but as far as PA's are concerned, if the PCN hasn't been attached to vehicle or handed to driver then it isn't writen off. We would simply select VDA otherwise known as Vehicle driven away. In this case, like mentioned you will get the PCN mailed to you. As for 'a ticket is only valid' concerning PAs, Bailiffchaser, i've been doing my job long enough to know the procedure and what the next step is should a VDA occur, and in your head if you think it is not valid, i'm afraid your wrong as the DAPs are live and once the infomation has been tapped into the electronic device and print has been pressed, the infomation has been collected. A VDA is just how the ticket gets processed. I.e. was it served to the driver, affixed to winscreen or do we need to mail it out to them?

I've had drivers come upto me (Westminster) who have told me that it takes about six weeks for the process to go through (according to the date of PCN issued to the date they received it).

This is because the authorities await the address details from DVLA Swansea as the Vehicle Drove Away and they need to get the address from somewhere.

 

I'm not saying in your town they may class it as invalid...but in major cities where revenue and policies exist for a reason, then it just doesn't simply go away because you drove off.

[Bailiffchaser]

So warden you are saying that the advice handed out buy npas and also handed out by various sites across the net are giving out incorrect information ?

[The Warden]

(double post)

[The Warden]

Of course not Bailffchaser, if it's on the net it must be true.... what i am saying is...and i quote "if the PCN hasn't been attached to vehicle or handed to driver then it isn't writen off".

I was merely replying to your posting of:

"A ticket is only valid if it is served on the car or driver. If the pa does not hand it to you or stick it to your car it has not been served."

which is inacurate

[patdavies]

Baliffchaser is correct.

 

RTA 1991 Section 66

 

66.—(1) Where, in the case of a stationary vehicle in a designated parking place, a parking attendant has reason to believe that a penalty charge is payable with respect to the vehicle, he may—

(a) fix a penalty charge notice to the vehicle; or

(b) give such a notice to the person appearing to him to be in charge of the vehicle.

 

There is no option © about mailing it later to the registered keeper

[The Warden]

That's because he doesn't have the option to mail it to him as you suggested in ©.

What he does, (can't make this clearer) is he selects Vehicle Driven Away as how the ticket was distributed, and then when all the infomation gets downloaded at the councils database, all VDAs go-on to DVLA Swansea for address infomation, when that returns the PCN gets mailed out.

PatDavies, you are right in saying the RTA 1991 act has two options, but that is for stationary vehicles. The reason why it doesn't mention a mailer option is because that rule applies specifically to stationary vehicles.

I have also given the option to a stationary vehicle 'if he was there or had he driven away' and he chose to take the ticket - not his exact words, but as arrogant and violent natured that he was, he knew that it was in his interest to get the ticket there and then...(he did mention something about killing me if a ticket touched his vehicle - needless to say he allowed the ticket on his vehicle and i'm still alive)....point is had he said he had driven away, that's what i would have selected in my DAP and i'd have made a note that due to a violent nature the PCN couldn't be issued without a code red being the result... sometimes you just have to add caution, but in the terms of Westminster PA's a VDA will always get the PCN...(provided details were collected and the print button has finalised the PCN)

[Bailiffchaser]

So what westminister council pas etc are doing is against the law ? They are also timewasting against the law as well ? Well that now makes sense why so many westminister tickets are winning their appeals ? it because you are told to break the law.

[The Warden]

So what westminister council pas etc are doing is against the law ?

Are you asking or telling?

 

They are also timewasting against the law as well ?

 

Again, asking or telling?

 

it because you are told to break the law.

 

No ones told to break any laws. PAs are trained in how to do the job on street. albeit in different surroundings (classrooms) and in different infomation than you would actually do onstreet.

Example...NCP covers alot of Londons council contracts for parking enforecment. NCP give you many exams to pass before going onstreet. It is in these classrooms where they drill into you that the customer is always right and a ticket getting issued when the driver returns (IF print hasn't been pressed of course!) can be cancelled depending on the situation.

This puts in the head of a trainee PA that the customer is always right. They install an easy to remember phrase in training to help you on street

T(eamwork)

I(ntegrity)

C(ustomer focus)

K(nowledge)

However...when you are onstreet...it's a different ballgame. Some of what you learn is vital. i mean, you can't walk upto a vehicle on a meter which has expired and guess a contravention code, so yes, classwork is essential to the training...but the teaching method needs alot to be desired.

 

In reality, the customer isn't NCP's number 1 objective, and to be honest they don't really care why you parked on yellows....they really do not care. What they care about is meeting targets. And that means issuing tickets. As for your 'unlawfully' comments, I never have issued an unlawful ticket and i've used the VDA option on my DAP. I've never had a code yellow or red because my tickets are fair.

Back to your last posting though...you responded to my posting which doesn't state anywhere where they carry out illegal tickets. Show me where i said PAs issue unfair or illegal tickets in my last post.

I did say that the RTA 1991 act (section 66) refers to stationary vehicles, but stationary vehicles are not vehicles that have driven away. Stationary means not moving.

If the vehicle drives away the LAW permits you to select VDA on the DAP and then it gets put through the procedure differently as the VehicleDroveAway. I do believe that the way one ticket gets processed to another are two different things and depend on the reason, i.e. the RTA 1991 section 66 rule does not apply in this scenraio so no laws are broken.

Driving away when the ticket issued won't get you off, scott free.... especially if you were double parked - holding up traffic (Parking in a restricted street (01) ), etc....you can appeal against the ticket when you get it, and say your vehicle wasn't there....but if it was, i can bet your bottom dollar there will be a photograph with a date and time print on it as this is what's taken before the ticket even gets printed....so bailffchaser, if you want to drive away....it won't help

[Bailiffchaser]

but then again photograpic evidence is secondry. the main item is the pas notes. where everything from the colour of the car and also the positions of the valves etc are recorded ae they not ? now do not tell me thatphotographic evidence is vital to a successful ticketbeing paid ?

[omicron]

If you were late getting back because you had to stop and rest/were in pain/etc because of your condition, isn't there a Disability Discriminination implication?

[The Warden]

but then again photograpic evidence is secondry. the main item is the pas notes. where everything from the colour of the car and also the positions of the valves etc are recorded ae they not ? now do not tell me thatphotographic evidence is vital to a successful ticketbeing paid ?

 

Valve positions are taken, but photographic evidence is essential if you say your car never left your driveway on such a day when a time stamped photogrpah in archives proves otherwise....how could you argue that?

 

If you dispute the PCN on grounds that you were not there, when you were....then you'll pay for sure.

 

 

Disabled people do have a certain amount of time difference that others done. In Westminster the time is 62 minutes*. PCN issuable on the 63rd minute

(*depending on contravention code)

[patdavies]

That's because he doesn't have the option to mail it to him as you suggested in ©.

What he does, (can't make this clearer) is he selects Vehicle Driven Away as how the ticket was distributed, and then when all the infomation gets downloaded at the councils database, all VDAs go-on to DVLA Swansea for address infomation, when that returns the PCN gets mailed out.

PatDavies, you are right in saying the RTA 1991 act has two options, but that is for stationary vehicles. The reason why it doesn't mention a mailer option is because that rule applies specifically to stationary vehicles.

 

How can I make this clearer? There is no mail option of any sort for a parking contravention under the RTA 1991.

 

The quote above is the only way for a parking PCN to be issued - there is no other way. Of course it is for stationary vehicles - by definition to contravene parking law requires a vehicle to be stationary.

 

PA's have no authority to stop a moving vehicle, they cannot deal with moving traffic contraventions.

 

However, if a ticket is issued by a met. police constable or warden, it can be later mailed out. But it is not, and cannot be, a PCN - it can only be an FPN (Fixed Penalty Notice).

 

Only Police and Police Traffic Wardens can issue FPN, PAs can only issue PCN

[The Warden]

How can I make this clearer? There is no mail option of any sort for a parking contravention under the RTA 1991.

 

Like i said, that is because it applies to stationary vehicles, if a vehicle has driven away then how can this rule apply to it if it isn't in the same place as where it was left, i.e. stationary?

 

by definition to contravene parking law requires a vehicle to be stationary.

It is not an offence to park on double yellow lines...overstay a P&D bay, or 'remain stationary' on a footway so there would be no contravening laws...it would however be a civil matter, and no, the car wouldn't have to be stationary after the photo has been taken, ticket printed, and details collected.

 

However, if a ticket is issued by a met. police constable or warden, it can be later mailed out. But it is not, and cannot be, a PCN - it can only be an FPN (Fixed Penalty Notice).

 

Only Police and Police Traffic Wardens can issue FPN, PAs can only issue PCN

 

Does this mean if i select VDA after you choose not to 'remain stationary' and move on before i get a chance to fix ticket to your windscreen, you won't get your ticket for your typical run-of-the-mill 01 offence?

Because i beg to differ.

[patdavies]

 

Does this mean if i select VDA after you choose not to 'remain stationary' and move on before i get a chance to fix ticket to your windscreen, you won't get your ticket for your typical run-of-the-mill 01 offence?

Because i beg to differ.

 

Some authorities may choose to mail the ticket - and continue the rest of the rignarole - but when it reaches NPAS/PATAS it will fail because it has not been properly served. A parking PCN can only be served as stated in the RTA 1991. It is served when given to the driver or affixed to the vehicle - not when you press print.

[The Warden]

Some authorities may choose to mail the ticket - and continue the rest of the rignarole - but when it reaches NPAS/PATAS it will fail because it has not been properly served. A parking PCN can only be served as stated in the RTA 1991. It is served when given to the driver or affixed to the vehicle - not when you press print.

 

When you press print, and the ticket has been printed and placed in envelope (or not as the case maybe)...The DAP in order to clear itself will want some following infomation. It basically asks, now that you have your ticket, what did you do with it? How did the driver appear - was you met with violence, verbal abuse, etc.... it makes sense that you get follow on questions to the ticket before the screen reverts back to the main menu. If you put VDA, as you say some authorities will mail it...in the borough i was talking about (Westminster- and many others), it will get mailed. You said when t will reach NPAS/PATAS...why would it if it's a good ticket? If you decided to fight the ticket on solid grounds that your vehicle was clearly not in contravention because you was repairing your car in a garage all of that day, or it wasn't stolen and you know of where your vehicles location at all times, then understandably....yes.....but otherwise, no.

I Knew a PA who would do this...and understandably he got caught. The police were involved as the driver kept getting mailers for his tickets when he refused to pay, or when VDA was selected. TBH, the guy had no idea that this was going on, until it started happening on a daily basis. He informed the police and the police impounded his vehicle to see if he was getting any more tickets. He did, on xxxx street, at xxx time... but imposible. The police had the very same vehicle. Needless to say, he didn't work there very long after that. I would like to say concluding this post that alot of PAs (based on the trouble you can get yourself into) would do as they're trained to do...but that too is imposible. There are alot of dishonest PAs out there, and if i was on the receiving end, i would fight it all the way as well. But trying to get around a ticket on a technicality such as driving away before it's handed to you or affixed to windscreen...doesn't always work. Especially moreso when that PA's taken clear photographs of a parked vehicle on a pavement for example with 4 wheels blocking the path for pedestrians and no one in the car. Another photograph of the vehicles tax disc, displaying the 26 numbers that are significant to that tax disk as well as the exp date and VRM.

This is a clearcut parking contravention, and with the PAs notes and photographs, wether he drove away or not won't do the driver any good.

[MARTIN3030]

This is a very good debate and there are some real constructive answers flowing from some thought rendering questions.

Nothing wrong with healthy dialogue that is both factual and informative lets hope the thread will continue to be so,and that maybe others with knowledge of the subject in hand will add their opinions.

[seylectric]

I haven't read it all thoroughly so apologies if I have missed anything relevant, but I am struggling to get my head around this bit:

"That's because he doesn't have the option to mail it to him as you suggested in ©.

What he does, (can't make this clearer) is he selects Vehicle Driven Away as how the ticket was distributed, and then when all the infomation gets downloaded at the councils database, all VDAs go-on to DVLA Swansea for address infomation, when that returns the PCN gets mailed out.

PatDavies, you are right in saying the RTA 1991 act has two options, but that is for stationary vehicles. The reason why it doesn't mention a mailer option is because that rule applies specifically to stationary vehicles."

 

Surely there can't be any such option as a VDA because the RTA 1991 relates to stationary vehicles! A VDA relates to moving vehicles, therefore there is no parking "offence" for which a VDA can be relevant because a parking offence relates to a stationary vehicle, not a moving one!

 

VDA's therefore have no relevance and that's why they are not mentioned in the RTA 1991. In otherwords you can't nick a moving vehicle for a parking offence, it's complete nonsense! What's the charge, driving away without receiving a parking ticket?

 

Incidentally taking a picture of a moving vehicle proves what exactly in relation to a parking offence? Not only that, I have yet to see a still photograph of a car allegedly parked on a double yellow line that proves the car was actually stationary at the time! Please...