Lost Section 21 accelerated possession claim - want help with set aside and counterclaim

[honeybee13]

See what dx thinks about all of that.

 

According to Shelter, you need to prove if the notice itself in invalid in your case. Could you tell us which conditions the s21 doesn't meet in your case?

 

How to check a section 21 notice is valid - Shelter England - Shelter England

ENGLAND.SHELTER.ORG.UK

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Find out how to check if the section 21 eviction notice served by your landlord is valid. You can challenge an invalid notice in court and stop the...

 

HB

 

PS I like UncleBulgaria's suggestion of an online chat with Shelter. What do you think? They're the housing experts.

[Hunter779]

 

According to Shelter, you need to prove if the notice itself in invalid in your case. Could you tell us which conditions the s21 doesn't meet in your case? Yes I am already aware of that. I have tried to explain this in earlier posts. I will answer this question again later today and try to explain more clearly.

 

PS I like UncleBulgaria's suggestion of an online chat with Shelter. What do you think? They're the housing experts. I appreciate this advice, but this would only make things much more difficult for me. I do not have the time or energy and it would just waste more time to go over everything all over again. I just specifically need help with drafting / completing court forms N244 etc

 

 

[dx100uk]

i'll say it again without any other text to confuse you.

 

an N244 is the form to set aside any court judgement inc Section 21 applications, if you want to call it an appeal, then so be it.

 

as far as i am reading  - you can only apply to set aside a section 21 if there was an error in the way the section 21 notice was filled out. not about an error in the claims it made.

 

your previous defence, what had already been put in nor what was not put in is not a reason for a section 21 set aside.

 

 and i'll be frank, i think 99% of what we've seen that you put in your defence was not really anything relevant toward defending against the eviction. it was a they did that did this complaint list, which the court is not there to resolve and those are not issues that can be used to justify or as a reason for you not paying the rent. 

 

pers i would have not bought any of that up at all.

 

dx

 

[Hunter779]

Thank you for your reply.

 

The accelerated possession claim was made as a result of rent arrears. The rent arrears have only accrued as a direct result of the claimants actions. The claimants are not claiming for the rent arrears in the accelerated possession claim, as they are not able to claim rent arrears using S21 accelerated possession.

 

I suspect the reason they used accelerated possession was to prevent me being able to make a counterclaim.

 

Briefly: The grounds for defending the possession claim are that I have chronic health conditions and disability that eviction would cause me exceptional hardship.

 

The right to rent document was not provided at beginning of tenancy. That makes the S21 invalid. And S21 is also invalid, as it was served solely in retaliation for being too unwell with Covid and various other health conditions to accommodate a property inspection on their demand, which is malicious, unlawful disability discrimination and also grounds to dismiss their possession claim. 

 

And I can provide ample evidence to support all of the above. 

 

 

[dx100uk]

21 minutes ago, Hunter779 said:

 

The right to rent document was not provided at beginning of tenancy.

 

at last we actually get a direct answer.

 

that is all you need to set aside

FORGET EVERYTHING ELSE. you do not need it nor need to include it at this stage

 

its that simple and in black and white on the shelter link i posted days ago. very 1st line on reasons to set aside.

 

dx

 

[unclebulgaria67]

Read the following linked information and tell us how the s.21 notice is invalid (only those issues mentioned in the link and nothing else )

 

How to check a section 21 notice is valid - Shelter England - Shelter England

ENGLAND.SHELTER.ORG.UK

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Find out how to check if the section 21 eviction notice served by your landlord is valid. You can challenge an invalid notice in court and stop the eviction process.

 

[honeybee13]

Post 76, UB. And dx posted it earlier on.

 

HB

[Hunter779]

Thank you - I did mention in several earlier posts that the right to rent document was not provided.

 

Regarding the right to rent document. I stated, amongst other things, in my written defence to the possession claim that copy of the right to rent document was not provided at the beginning of tenancy, and that the S21 is therefore invalid.

 

The claimants deny this (in addition to all other allegations) and have produced a copy of the right to rent document to the court with each page of it initialled/signed by me. That may have swayed the judge in the claimants favour.

 

My argument to this is that at the beginning of the tenancy, when I was asked to sign and initial all of the paperwork, tenancy agreement etc, I was given no opportunity to read any of paperwork before signing, which was many dozens of pages. I was just told to initial and sign all of the pages. The letting agent left me with a copy of the tenancy agreement and various other things, such as gas certificate, energy performance, deposit scheme info, but she did not provide me with a copy of the right to rent document. She also forgot to provide me with a copy of the property inventory, which was subsequently provided when I requested it.

 

So regardless of the right to rent document being signed by me, I was NOT provided with a copy of it. The copy I signed, without any opportunity to read, was kept by the letting agent and I was not provided with a copy.

 

I have not had any possible chance to explain this to the judge, or to address any of the other spurious allegations made by the claimant, as I did not receive the claimants evidence until a few days before the hearing.

 

 

[Ethel Street]

How would you ever convince a judge that you have never received a copy of the right to rent document when the landlord has submitted in evidence a copy of it initialled by you at the beginning of the tenancy? Whilst your explanation is clear enough and not impossible why should a judge, on the balance of probabilities, prefer your explanation to what the landlord says?

 

If you want to prove the s21 was invalid you have to convince a judge that you never received a copy of the R2R document despite the landlord having a copy of it initalled by you . If you can't do that (if I've understood previous advice correctly) the judgement will not be set aside. 

 

Are you arguing that you must be given the time to read the whole of the R2R document before the tenancy starts?

[sts055]

Apologies for entering this thread, but I have been following this on another legal forum since you asked for help in September.

 

Every person giving advice had to step back from offering further help and wished you luck.

 

The excellent unpaid team here who want to help should have the full picture:

 

 

 

I will be blunt and you won't want to hear it, but reading both threads, you take issue with the advice you don't like and have a reason every time for not following it.

 

[Hunter779]

 

  

  

How would you ever convince a judge that you have never received a copy of the right to rent document when the landlord has submitted in evidence a copy of it initialled by you at the beginning of the tenancy?

 

I have already answered this above. The document might have been initialled, but I was not provided with a copy of the document, which makes the S21 invalid. 

 

Whilst your explanation is clear enough and not impossible why should a judge, on the balance of probabilities, prefer your explanation to what the landlord says? 

 

Because my version of events is the truth.

 

If you want to prove the s21 was invalid you have to convince a judge that you never received a copy of the R2R document despite the landlord having a copy of it initialled by you . If you can't do that (if I've understood previous advice correctly) the judgement will not be set aside. 

 

As previously explained, I have been given no fair opportunity to do that and was not present at the hearing

 

Are you arguing that you must be given the time to read the whole of the R2R document before the tenancy starts? 

 

As above, the claimant is legally required to provide a copy of the document to tenant at beginning of tenancy, which they failed to do

[dx100uk]

can you please learn to quote PROPERLY!!

 

you highlight the section you wish to reply too in its post

you get a pop up that says quote.

hit that then you type your reply

 

then repeat if you wish to quote another section...thus a multiquote

 

better still just type and stop using quote altogether!!

 

lost count of the number of posts ive have to modify.....

 

dx

[Hunter779]

@sts055 No you're not being helpful. 

 

@dx100uk Its extremely difficult and time consuming for me to keep answering the same questions over and over again. I thought you previously said you could help with this ?

 

No need to tell me off for some perceived slight. I am trying my best and have clearly stated in several earlier posts the relevant information, and yet keep getting asked the same questions over and over 

[dx100uk]

well having just read that thread i'm off ......bye!!

[Hunter779]

9 hours ago, dx100uk said:

well having just read that thread i'm off ......bye!!

Why would you be off after reading that thread? That forum is not as active as this one, and I obviously need help with this matter as quickly as possible.

 

Have I committed some kind of crime from previously asking for help on a different forum ?

 

I previously asked a different forum for help with drafting my defence. From what I remember I was told what I already written myself was sufficient to file at the court, so that's what I did.

 

There is no need to berate me like a child and interrogate me like some kind of criminal because I have previously sought help elsewhere.

 

You previously said you could help me win this. I am sorry if I have not used your quoting system properly, I am trying my best.

 

I am sorry if you have to edit my posts, or if im quoting wrong - I have cognitive problems and trying my best

 

There's really no need to go on some kind of witch hunt against me simply for having previously asked for help on a different forum. 

 

So what ? 

 

I am now asking for help on this forum. What do you allege I have done wrong exactly?

 

Any help I have previously sought elsewhere is totally irrelevant. 

 

Are you not able to just help with the immediate situation as it currently stands, rather than tell me off for previously seeking help elsewhere ?

 

I stand to lose a roof over my head and would very much appreciate help on this forum with what I have asked for help with, rather than keep having to explain myself like a naughty child

Edited December 10, 2022 by Hunter779

[Ethel Street]

I've also read the thread on the other forum  and can see that the advice given there was exactly the same as given here. 

 

You were advised there that the only way to prevent accelerated possession was to show that the s21 order was invalid.  That's the advice here too. It appears you already submiitted in your defence prior to the hearing that you never received the R2R document. So the judge considered your version of events but upheld the landlord's assertion that they did give a copy of the R2R document. So I cannot see how you can possibly win a set aside by simply repeating the claim and asserting that you are telling the truth and the landlord isn't unless you have actual evidence. But that's just my opinion. Like everyone else here, I am not a lawyer.

 

You were advised both here and on the other forum to seek help from Shelter. You declined to do that. Eventually people there withdrew from offering advice since you didn't take it. And that will happen here too. 

 

My final advice to you is contact Shelter as soon as you possibly can.

 

And with that I too am off. Bye.

 

[Hunter779]

This has already been addressed several times in earlier posts, that is not going to help me and just making everything much more difficult, confusing and time consuming

 

At least with somebody adding a link to help previously requested on another forum, you might be able to get a better understanding of the story, rather than me have to type it all out again from scratch

 

I would appreciate help with the N244 application and thought you were able to help with that.

 

 

[honeybee13]

Sadly I don't think it's our understanding that's lacking. You've had the same advice twice - council, Shelter etc - and don't want to take it. I'm very sorry you find yourself in this situation but no one seems to be able to figure a way out of your current situation.

 

I'm very grateful to @sts055 for coming to this forum to let us know.

 

HB

[Hunter779]

The council cannot help with this matter. Shelter would only consume many hours of my time and energy, only to confirm what I already know, or to advise me to seek legal representation. I do not have the time, energy or ability for this.

 

I came on this forum, as the other forum is not as active and nobody available to help with what I need help with

 

You keep saying in one post you can help, then in the next you can't. 

 

I don't have time for this and don't appreciate being messed about. Can anyone help with N244, or not? 

Edited December 10, 2022 by Hunter779

[unclebulgaria67]

@Hunter779  We don't think you have any case to take back to the Court. 

 

As has been said numerous times, go get local help and face up to the likely outcome that the landlord will take possession of the property and you will have to find an alternative place to live.

 

The sooner you start looking into what alternative housing you can find, the better position you will be in.  If you will become homeless as you cannot find alternative private rented, then the council should be approached for housing choices. If the Council have difficulty finding you suitable housing, the Job Centre because you are on Universal Credit, can do a duty to refer to the Council, asking for them to priortise help with housing for you, as you are vulnerable with health conditions. 

[Hunter779]

@unclebulgaria67 We don't think you have any case to take back to the Court. 

 

Then you clearly don't understand properly

 

As has been said numerous times, go get local help and face up to the likely outcome that the landlord will take possession of the property and you have to find an alternative place to live.

 

Please stop advising me to do things that are not going to help the situation. Yes, I think I realised that fact several months ago and have been unable to secure alternative accommodation and require MORE TIME, to do so, otherwise I will be homeless on the streets.

 

The sooner you start looking into what alternative housing you can find, the better position you will be in.  If you will become homeless as you cannot find alternative private rented, then the council should be approached for housing choices. If the Council have difficulty finding you suitable housing, the Job Centre because you are on Universal Credit, can do a duty to refer to the Council, asking for them to prioritise help with housing for you, as you are vulnerable with health conditions. 

 

There are no council housing options.

There is a waiting list of about 5 years for council housing.

There is no council housing available.

I am also not considered priority as a single person with no children, and there is not even any housing available for people with children.

 

The council can do NOTHING for me.

My ONLY option is private rented, which I have been trying to secure for several months.

 

Due to ongoing effects of the pandemic and also current cost of living crisis, there are few private properties available, and a huge demand and competition for those that are available.

 

The current reality is that many private rented properties get snapped up within minutes of being advertised, and many also have 20+ applicants fighting for the same property.

 

There are also very limited number of properties that will accept pets.

 

These are all circumstance beyond my control and I may find it extremely difficult to move out within the time stated on the possession order.

 

That is why I need urgent help to set-aside the possession order

Edited December 11, 2022 by dx100uk
unnecessary previous post quote removed

[unclebulgaria67]

What about mobile homes to rent within say 20 to 30 miles of where you are living ?  I have been involved with Housing for quite a long time and although there is a shortage, people do find Housing, but it can often be miles from where they are currently living and it may not be what they would have ideally chosen.  

[Hunter779]

No I cannot live in a mobile home. Please stop diverting away from what I need help with, as that is causing me more stress and is not helping me.

 

I do appreciate the help and support to date, but I haven't got time to waste on this matter and if I am going to continually be insulted, I will leave this site. I would appreciate help solely on exactly what I have asked for help with. I do not need any advice or help, other than that what I have specifically asked for. 

 

I have to say, sorry but I am astounded that somebody would waste the time of googling to see if I have previously posted for help with this on another forum, and then bizarrely use that as a reason to not help! ? Very strange.

 

And as for the repeated insults and unsolicited advice, as to where you think I should live and how to find a property, as well as other random, insults - I am shocked. How RUDE, JUDGMENTAL and IGNORANT.

 

Dx clearly doesn't want to help and can't make his mind up, and i've already had to ask several times for him to STOP berating me like a child.

 

Are there any other property possession experts on here who can help with what I actually need?

 

Failing that, it looks like a park bench it is then. Thank you so so much for the unnecessary added stress caused and for wasting what very little, precious, valuable time and energy that I have .

 

Seriously stupid. And shameful .

[stu007]

Hi

 

The help you are asking for is to appeal the Granted Possession Order for you Private Property you are Renting.

 

Having read the other link and this Topic fully is seems your basis for an Appeal is that you were not given a copy of the Right to Rent Booklet but in the Landlords S21 Documents provided to the Court they enclosed a signed/initialed copy of the Right to Rent Booklet that you either signed/initialed.

 

The Judge looked at all the evidence provided by both parties and Granted the Landlords Possession Order for the Property.

 

If you Appeal on the Grounds that you were not given a copy of the Right to Rent Booklet how are you going to prove this to the Court? (you can't just state in appeal document I was not provided with a copy of the Right to Rent Booklet you need to prove this which from what you have stated so far you actually can't bar just your word)

 

Bear in mind the Landlord who was Granted the Possession order already provided evidence that you Signed/Initialed the Right to Rent Booklet and provided this as evidence to the Court to get the Possession Order.

 

IMO you would be best putting your energy into looking for a new property and also get application forms into the Council Housing, Housing Associations, Housing Trusts in your area so at least your name is on there list and if you move give them your updated address details.

 

You should also consider as you mention you have medical condition contacting the Council Occupational Health and asking them for an Assessment to be done as this can also be beneficial and get you added to the housing lists as a Medical Priority