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2nd hand car fault - Cambridgeshire Motor House in Peterborough? - **Solved**


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Posted (edited)

Hi everyone, first time posting :)

 

Long story short, a week ago I bought a used 2016 Jaguar XF for nearly £14k from a dealer with a 3 month external warranty, 3 days later I notice 2 issues: 

 

1. Washer fluid low warning is on even though the washer fluid tank is full, most likely the washer fluid sensor needs to be replaced. This will be covered under the external warranty.

 

2. Start/Stop system doesn’t work. Took the car to an official jaguar dealership where they confirmed it doesn’t work and I have it in writing, they want to carry out a battery test and most likely there will one out of 2 outcomes, either the battery just needs to be charged as needs to be at a specific charge level for the start/stop to work or it will need to be replaced completely. This is not covered under the external warranty.

 

I advised the dealership where I got the car from about the issue however the guy is adamant that the start/stop is working as it was fine during a ‘pre-sale test drive’ I told him that the health check from Jaguar clearly states that it doesn’t work, I was never informed about this issue when buying the car, I was told that all functions are working as they should.

 

I’ve let the dealer know that I will pay for the battery charge and testing from my own pocket (got it booked for Saturday) but if it turns out that the battery needs replacing I will not be paying £340 for a new battery and advised that I expect them to cover the cost. I’ve had no reply after that.

 

Now to my question, in the event of the battery needing replacement in order to fix the start/stop system and the dealer not cooperating, if I was to take him to a small claims court for the the cost of the new battery would I have a chance of winning?

 

Many thanks for any advice.
 

 

Edited by slimswan
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it will i can tell you from pers experience be the battery change it. dont charge it, the issue and many others that are associated with low battery voltage will occur and get worse. typically you'll find you will need to change it about every 3-4yrs depending upon use. if the car is going to sit around for say a week or 10days or more between uses. the battery will fail quickly. 

 

dont go paying £340!! for a battery that will go down 

i've used these for the last 2, far more capacity and they last +4yrs of say once weekly use and im in the Scottish highlands and the car is kept outside !

 

SuperBatt AGM1100 12V 120AH (100AH & 110AH) Heavy Duty Ultra Deep Cycle VRLA AGM Leisure Marine Battery - SAFE & SPILL PROOF - Caravan Motorhome Boat Motor Mover: Amazon.co.uk: Car & Motorbike

 

1/2 the price too! and more capacity

 

as for if you can claim and if its worth it. ask the dealer to pay some.

 

the water bottle sensor is simple to do 5 mins <£10

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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I'm more than a little puzzled that you spend £14,000 on a motorcar, that within three days you start to notice issues including a fairly significant issue with the stop-start system and yet you are prepared to start offering to pay some of your own money towards sorting out the problem.

In case you don't know, if they defect occurs within the 30 days of the date you take delivery of the vehicle, you have a right to reject the vehicle and to demand a refund or a replacement – at your option.

If you start communicating with the dealer and indicate that you are prepared to go along with the fault and start taking your own remedial action, then you risk losing your 30 day right to reject the vehicle. 

 

Presumably you like the car and you'd like to keep it – but I don't understand why you should be involved in addressing any of these problems.

Secondly, it is already clear that you are dealing with a reluctant dealer and if you start having your own work done on it you then give them an opportunity later on a further defects develop for them to say that the problems were caused by your interference with the vehicle.

What is the name of the dealer?
 

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Thanks for the reply.

 

The reason why I am willing to pay for the battery testing and charging is that it’s more cost effective for me to do this at my local Jaguar dealership, and will leave me with an official document stating if the battery needs to be replaced rather than travelling 2 hours one way to the dealer where I bought the car from for them to do their ‘tests’ and then try to tell me that ‘they’re sure the start/stop system works’ like they’ve been doing for the last week.
 

If it turns out that the battery needs to be replaced I will simply ask for the dealer to cover the cost of a new one, theres no need for me to waste a whole day at work + fuel to drive all the way to the dealer, if he fails to pay for a new battery I will claim all costs back including the diagnostic cost. If I don’t have an official diagnosis then surely it would be his word against mine? In case of a small claims court claim I need to have proof that he sold me a car with a defective battery thus making the start/stop system useless. 

 

Maybe I’m wrong as I’ve never been in a situation like this, but what should I do now when the dealer is adamant that the start/stop system works?

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But if the fault exists, then you will be able to claim all expenses – including fitting, travelling, time off work if that can be verified – et cetera.

How far away from you is the dealer? I notice that you haven't responded to my question about this. Are you trying to protect them?

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Thanks for the recommendation, I will look into it. 

 

I am also nearly positive that the battery will need to be replaced, I just don’t want to pay out of my own pocket as I bought a car where all functions should be working as advertised.

 

The dealer did not want to drop the price of the car even by a penny therefore I do not expect to be buying parts for it a week into ownership.

 

Bottle sensor sill be sorted by the external warranty that came with the car so not worried about that.

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2 minutes ago, BankFodder said:

But if the fault exists, then you will be able to claim all expenses – including fitting, travelling, time off work if that can be verified – et cetera.

How far away from you is the dealer? I notice that you haven't responded to my question about this. Are you trying to protect them?

My bad, of course not trying to protect them.

 

Dealer name is Cambridgeshire Motor House in Peterborough, over 100miles from where I live (London).

 

What do you suggest that my next steps should be? The dealer keeps telling me that there is no fault with the start/stop and that it will eventually kick in when the right conditions  are met, its’s like he is just trying to buy time, even though I have a health check from Jaguar clearly stating that it does not work following their test drive. 

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  • BankFodder changed the title to 2nd hand car fault and uncooperative dealership - Cambridgeshire Motor House in Peterborough?

I think one of the important things to do is to keep a very tight paper trail. This means that you should inform Cambridge Motor House about every step you are proposing to take and give them an opportunity to comment.
This puts you in a more secure position because they are less likely to have any basis for distancing themselves from some action you take such as putting repairs in hand at a local Jaguar dealer and then looking to them for reimbursement.

In fact most of the messages which you should send them should inform them that you have noticed that such and such a defect has manifested itself, that in order to save costs and inconvenience to everybody, you are proposing to take the car to your local authorised Jaguar repairer for inspection. You should then inform them that if a defect is discovered, then you will give them – Cambridge Motor House – notice of it together with an estimate for repairs – and you will be looking to them and for reimbursement of any costs.
That sort of thing.

If they require that the vehicle is taken to them, then the position should be that if a defect is discovered, they will then be responsible for the entire costs of transporting the vehicle to them and returning as well as the costs of remedying the defect.

I'm sure you can see how lumpy this all is and I'm sorry to tell you that a very large proportion of the problems we get on this forum where people have bought cheapish cars – but from dealers far away from them, are in precisely the kinds of problem which you are experiencing at the moment.
People seem to identify a car hundred miles away – or sometimes even further than that – and they think it's the only car for them and it is a "must have". They forget to factor in the costs and difficulties associated with dealing with defects which might manifest themselves in the vehicle and which would necessarily be incurred by having to visit the remote dealer on repeated occasions.

Not only that, it looks as if you are already falling out with the dealer and that means that there may be additional problems trying to address other defects which may arise in the future because of the ill will which will exist between you.
There is nothing good about buying a vehicle from a dealer who is not close to you.

If you want to get rid of the problem completely, then you can assert your rights under the Consumer Rights Act 2015. Because you have bought the car less than 30 days ago, you can assert your right to reject the vehicle and require a refund.
I wouldn't at all expect the dealer to be cooperative on this and you may have to sue for the refund – but under the 2015 act, the dealer would then have a duty to refund you your money within a very short space of time.
Because the dealer will try to say that there is a default. However, you have got written evidence from a Jaguar dealer that there is a fault – and I would suggest that you would then get a second opinion just do back you up.
An inconvenience here is that you should then stop driving the car and of course you would then presumably be left without a vehicle until the matter is sorted out.

How did you pay for it?

A second solution and in a way much easier although it will not divest you of your long-term problem is that you could simply get another opinion as to the state of the vehicle and then give notice to the dealer as I suggested above, giving them an opportunity to comment and tell them that you are proposing to have the work done locally in order to mitigate your loss and their loss.

You would supply them with two estimates for doing the work – at proper good quality authorised garages – and then after waiting a reasonable period of time, say, seven days to respond, you would then proceed with the work and send the bill to Cambridgeshire Motor House. If they refused to pay then you would sue them in the County Court.
Your chances of success would be much better than 95% – and in fact Cambridgeshire Motor House would probably put their hands up because in order to defend they might have to travel to your local County Court and it just wouldn't be worth their while.


This would be a good quick fix for you – but of course it will poison the relationship between you and Cambridgeshire Motor House for the remainder of your ownership of the vehicle.
If the vehicle is in good condition and remains that way for a few years then it doesn't matter. On the other hand, if it starts developing defects in the next year or two, then you will probably have to lock horns with Cambridgeshire Motor House again.
Of course we will be here to help you.
 

If you paid for the car using a credit card or debit card or on finance, then you could involve the finance provider on the basis of section 75 Consumer Credit Act which provides that the finance provider shares the liability for the condition of the vehicle equally with the dealer.

Of course the finance companies don't like this kind of thing that as your ownership of this car is very recent then it probably wouldn't be too difficult. In order to go along this route, you would have formally to reject the vehicle under the consumer rights act – and I've commented on that option above.

 

If you think that you would rather keep the vehicle, then I would suggest that in addition to having a second opinion on the stop start issue, that you have the vehicle very thoroughly examined to identify all defects so that you understand exactly where you are and you can deal with everything at one go.
Of course this won't help you with latent defects which are not discernible at the moment. That's another can of worms.

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Thank you very much for your detailed response. I think you could not have made my options any clearer so thank you for your time. 

 

I am keeping a paper trail since the beginning as I know if will be beneficial if the dealer does not cooperate.  I also informed him about all faults found and the steps I intend to take like taking the car for the battery testing. I am honestly trying to be nice and only asking for the battery to be replaced if it actually turns out to be faulty. At no point did the dealer give me the option to take the car back to them to have a look at the fault.

 

Thankfully following the health check from Jaguar there are no more faults which seem to be present at this moment in time so I would prefer to keep the car as long as the start/stop system is fixed.

 

I paid a 25% deposit directly to the dealer and took the remaining sum out on HP Finance from Lloyds Bank. 

 

I already informed the dealer about carrying out the battery test at the Jaguar dealership, and that if it turns out that the battery is faulty I expect the cost to be covered by them (had no reply to that). I could refuse to carry out any diagnostics myself and ask the dealer to collect the car, diagnose and rectify the issue which would cost  the dealer much more money and time, but I'm still trying to be nice.. for now at least.

 

I will wait until I get the battery tested on Saturday and will advise the dealer of the outcome, if battery will need to be replaced then I will quote the cost and ask if they will reimburse the replacement costs to me without actually going back to them, if they will want to carry out their own testing I will agree to it providing that they will then also cover the cost of taking a day off work, fuel costs and the cost of replacing the battery. If they do not cooperate and refuse to pay for the works I will then get a 2nd opinion from a reputable garage as you advised, I will then pay the Jaguar dealership for the battery replacement and pursue a reimbursement through the small claims court.

 

I hope that the above is the correct way of dealing with this considering that I want to keep the car.  

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Was the finance agreement with the bank associated with the purchase of the vehicle? Or was it a separate personal loan which provided you with cash to pay for the vehicle?

Your plan of action seems fine. Once again, your paper trail should not only be recording what you have done – but also should be very clear about providing the dealer advance notice of everything you are doing and giving them a chance to comment. All assessments and quotations should have corroborative assessments and quotations and the dealer should be provided with everything in order to be perfectly informed and to be able to make a valid comment.

Make sure you give the dealer adequate notice and time to respond.

I think while you are making all these enquiries, it would be prudent also to find out what the reasonable life of this battery would be.

If it went to court, and if the dealer really wanted to argue the fine detail, there could be an argument for saying that you should accept a pro rata reduction on the cost of a new battery – given that you only ever expected to buy a second-hand car with the second hand battery in it.
However, I will keep this part of the enquiry separate and private – and wait until the dealer brings the point up if at all.

If you want help bringing the County Court claim, then of course let us know

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i have sent you a PM.

the auto start issue is most probably not because of a crap battery

they probably let it go flat on the forecourt , if that happens and they simply jump start the car.

the start stop is automictically disabled as a security feature until reset . 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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44 minutes ago, BankFodder said:

Was the finance agreement with the bank associated with the purchase of the vehicle? Or was it a separate personal loan which provided you with cash to pay for the vehicle?

Your plan of action seems fine. Once again, your paper trail should not only be recording what you have done – but also should be very clear about providing the dealer advance notice of everything you are doing and giving them a chance to comment. All assessments and quotations should have corroborative assessments and quotations and the dealer should be provided with everything in order to be perfectly informed and to be able to make a valid comment.

Make sure you give the dealer adequate notice and time to respond.

I think while you are making all these enquiries, it would be prudent also to find out what the reasonable life of this battery would be.

If it went to court, and if the dealer really wanted to argue the fine detail, there could be an argument for saying that you should accept a pro rata reduction on the cost of a new battery – given that you only ever expected to buy a second-hand car with the second hand battery in it.
However, I will keep this part of the enquiry separate and private – and wait until the dealer brings the point up if at all.

If you want help bringing the County Court claim, then of course let us know

 

The finance agreement is secured against the car, its a Hire Purchase agreement.

 

I just sent the dealer a message with the next steps that Intend to take and asked if he is willing to cooperate and cover the cost of the replacement battery if that turns out to be the cause of the start/stop system not working, I also let him know that if he wishes to carry out his own testing I am more then happy to allow this to happen providing that he covers  the transport costs along with any costs to rectify the fault. I asked him for his comments on the above.

 

I am not sure about the battery lifespan and will look into it, if the battery would be completely dead then I could have trouble with him defending himself by saying that it's wear and tear of a used car, however the problem here is with the start/stop system which happens to heavily rely on the battery to work properly, bearing in mind its not 100% confirmed to be a battery fault, this is just the most likely scenario according to Jaguar, hence why I am sending the car in for this to be tested. If it turns out that the battery is not at fault then it will get much more complicated but for now lets hope that it's only the battery that needs replacing. 

 

I will update once I hear back from the dealer but since he ignored my yesterdays reply to him claiming that I'm in the wrong, he might not bother to reply today either. 

 

 

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this is what i said in the PM.

typical fault don't use the jag or the 90Ah battery

stick that 120Ah caravan one in it. never had a problem since even after days of being outside not used in -10c weather and inches of snow. you'll also avoid the autogearbox down shift issue which is the next issue if you leave a crap battery in it and is a bugger to rectify sometimes.

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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As this is a hire purchase vehicle, then section 75 consumer credit act applies.

I would copy the hire purchase finance company into everything. Tell the dealer that you are also beginning a section 75 process.

Make a complaint to the finance company – partly so that they are fully aware and they can raise their own objections – but also to spread a little extra trouble around.

 

Also, if you are raising issues with the dealer and the dealer is not responding or cooperating, then you should make sure that the finance company knows about this as well. They would certainly expect the dealer to cooperate in solving any problems.

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The Battery will need replacing and the ecu will need programming to tell it a new battery has been installed I work for a major national car parts company we see this often.

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not on a jag

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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20 hours ago, BankFodder said:

As this is a hire purchase vehicle, then section 75 consumer credit act applies.

I would copy the hire purchase finance company into everything. Tell the dealer that you are also beginning a section 75 process.

Make a complaint to the finance company – partly so that they are fully aware and they can raise their own objections – but also to spread a little extra trouble around.

 

Also, if you are raising issues with the dealer and the dealer is not responding or cooperating, then you should make sure that the finance company knows about this as well. They would certainly expect the dealer to cooperate in solving any problems.

The dealer replied yesterday in a much more formal manner when I quoted that I am covered by the consumer rights act and the repair is within my rights.

 

He said that he looked at the vehicle health check from Jaguar and advised that they are willing to make a one-off payment of £147 towards the new battery if this fixes the Start/Stop system in line with with Jaguars recommendations, he also mentioned that if this does not fix the problem I am welcome to bring the car back for a full refund.

 

I advised that the price of £146 which is on the health check only quoted the price for the battery testing, charging and ecu update (clearly written on the report) and this will then tell me if the battery needs replacing, if after the check it turns out that the battery needs replacing then I will want reimbursement of £347.51 which is the price of a new battery from Jaguar.

 

I advised him of the above and asked for confirmation in writing that they will pay me back for the actual battery replacement if it comes to it. I asked that they reply within 48h with confirmation that this cost will be covered so that I know where I stand when I get the battery tested on Saturday. 

 

Will update as soon as I hear back from them 

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I received the following reply from the dealer:

 

Quote

Have it checked as planned tomorrow, it may be a case of battery charging as you mentioned before

 

I have rang Euro car parts to find out how much would a AGM battery be, who quoted us £203 for a BOSCH battery
quite a difference from what main dealers will charge.

 

If it is the battery causing the start-stop issue, they can confirm that, then we as a gesture of goodwill will pay for the battery


Look forward to hearing from you tomorrow

 

Is the dealer able to choose a replacement battery of his choice rather then agreeing to pay the dealership prices? I am aware of the fact that main dealerships charge twice the amount for practically the same thing, I'm not sure if the Bosch battery which the dealer is talking about is any worse then the official jaguar battery but obviously I would have a peace of mind if an original battery was fitted. 

 

If I was to decline his offer and pursue him paying for a battery directly from jaguar then he would have a good line of defense and could argue that he did offer to replace the battery?

 

 

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go for that battery i showed you on ebay seriously!

 

the jag batteries are crap and if the car wont be used that often will be useless in about 2-3yrs time and theirs like bosches warranty is worthless ....after 2 yrs they pull the wear n tear dodge and never payout.

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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First of all it's as if this dealer is trying to engage with you and that is very encouraging and laudable. Many don't.
I think this is worth bearing in mind. It will certainly be easier to work with him.
Bosch is certainly an extremely reputable make.
In terms of what you are entitled to, you are entitled to an equivalent of the battery that you have in the car when you bought it. Presumably this is Jaguar battery – but of course Jagger didn't make it. It was simply carry their brand and in fact it may even be a Bosch battery.

I already pointed out to you that in principle you wouldn't strictly be entitled to a brand-new battery. You bought the car second hand and you effectively bought the battery second-hand and so you would be entitled to a r second-hand eplacement.

If you are being offered a brand-new battery then so long as it's a decent brand, then you are doing very well as the dealer is not insisting on a pro rata replacement.

I'm quite sure that the dealer is right that he can source a battery much more cheaply than you would do if you got it directly from Jaguar.

Thinking long-term as well, you want to keep good relations with this dealer because you may need to go back to them in the future about other defects which might materialise. So if you show goodwill towards him and accepted solution, then I think you are opening the door to some dialogue and rapprochement.


 

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Hi Guys,

 

Sorry for a late update but have been away the last few days.

 

The dealer has paid me back for a brand new battery. Had it fitted and the start/stop now works like brand new.

 

This is a win for me, I am very grateful for all of your support and most importantly your time, especially @BankFodder who was out here writing essays with very useful information. I've learned a thing or two.

 

Thank you!

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Well done. I'm very pleased that you had a good result.

Also, hats off to the dealer who seems to have been prepared to step up to the mark. Clearly this is a dealer that is worth building bridges with – because as you probably realise, most of the stories we get here are about dealers who want to take the money and have no further responsibility.

Well done

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  • BankFodder changed the title to 2nd hand car fault - Cambridgeshire Motor House in Peterborough? - **Solved**

Well done, I'm very pleased for you. :)

 

Please consider a donation if you're able to, so we can be here for other people with problems in the future.

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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