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first choice holidays v jkr


jkr
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Hi sorry to butt in....

 

Spooky is on my wave length here.... I'll try and explain my angle!

 

Did you recieve an accommodation voucher from MedHotels.com? Or did you recieve an invoice from First Choice holidays as the tour op not the agents??

 

What I (and I think Spooky) is trying to get at is it sounds like you have been sold this holiday as a package, however, if the agents booked the flights through Thomas Cook and the accommodation through Medhotels (quite common practice) then you did not have a package holiday through First Choice. You were miss-sold dreadfully if this is the case. I would look at all the paperwork you have assuming you still have it, if not, ring the agents with your booking ref. number and ask them.

 

This will effect your claim and effect who you need to claim from. Rosiecotton sounds very knowledgeable and helpful and has given you a great deal of excellent advice so far and I'm sure she will continue to do so, as we all will.

 

Basically if you did not have a package holiday booked, and you were not made aware of this, then the booking agents have a lot of answering to do! You can (or at least I think you can) claim from them for miss-selling a holiday, not providing you with what they said they were, or witholding information from you about how they were booking the holiday.

 

My h/o has sent a stern message to all its staff to make sure we tell all customers that they have booked flight and accomodation seperatly (as this comes under a completely different set of terms and conditions) and in no uncertain terms do we ever mention the word "Package" when we book holidays this way! If First Choice Holidays as agents have done this and not told you, then they could find themselves in serious trouble. (assuming this is what they have done)

 

If you need me to explain this further or help you to establish if this is what they have done then please pm me anytime, I will be more than happy to help!

 

It could be that it was all booked through First Choice Tour Operations, and the hotel they booked you into wasn't furnished with a First Choice rep, they may have employed the Medhotels rep to work on their behalf, this I find ludicrous and highly unlikely, and TBH dont know why I even suggested that, but I suppose in this industry, anything is possible.

 

When I read Medhotels in your OP alarm bells started ringing immediately, not that there is anything wrong with them as a company, it just sounds like you are so convinced its a package holiday with First Choice, in whivh case there should be no mention of Medhotels anywhere. Medhotels are an Accommodation only and transfer supplier, not a Tour Operator!

 

Please let me know what you know of this and I will try and pick the bones out of it for you!

 

Heidi

I am not a legal expert, any advice I give is based purley on experience or opinion.

Please tip the scales if you feel I have helped you!! :D

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hello heidi, 16th Dec.

Thankyou for your very interesting email.This has opened a whole new panorama for me.Looking more critically at the original paperwork, on the covering letter it saya thankyou for booking your holiday with First Choice.Then, and I must admit I mist this,please find documents relating to your forthcoming holiday with Thomas Cook Holidays.We were convinced that we booked an all-inclusive holiday with First Choice, and in the letter to their MD Mr. Peter Long(we had a number of disputes with first choice over booking charges which the local office ignored)we clearly state that we booked an all-inclusive holiday from their teletext tv page First Choice Holidays, and ,specifically refer to their booking agent in the letter of complaint-which he ignored!

on the booking summary First Choice act as agents.Travel operator is Thomas Cook Holidays, and holiday accommodation supplier is Med-Hotels.First Choice have never challanged our assumption that the holiday was not booked as an all-inclusive package in any of their correspondance.They (first Choice)also state in correspondance to the solicitor who we originally employed,(legal aid) "that had they been made aware of the difficulties we encountered in the resort, they assure us they would have been in a position to secure alternative accommodation whilst in the resort.As they were not(we asked Med-Hotets' rep to contact First Choice in the UK, AS WELL AS 'PHONING THEM OURSELVES WITHOUT SUCCESS)given the opportunity they remained unaware of the issues our clients had until they ereceived a letter of complaint from me on 8th Sept.,05".I find this last statement ludicrous as they were sent reports from Med-Hotels in turkey, presumably before the 8th Sept.They also end by saying,"as agents they rely soley on the accommodation operator as the accommodation provider to ensure the holiday meets the advertised standards, and health and safety standards are monitored and maintained.The Med-Hotels resort manager Dominic Armes in his email to me from Turkey states that there was nothing on the booking form to indicate that anyone in the party was disabled!I hope that you can make some sense out of what I have written, and look forward to your reply.Many thanks. jkr.

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If the package was put together by TC's, then i would refer you to their booking conditions which states that should any guest have special needs or be disabled in anyway, they should contact their special needs department on the phone number that is shown. HOWEVER, IF you stated that there was a disabled member in your party, they should have contacted the special needs department on your behalf and completed a special needs form and faxed it back to them.

 

If First Choice did not do this and your definatley advised them of the situation at the time of booking or prior to your departure, then you have a good case. HOWEVER, you may need to prove that this was advised to the consultant at the time of booking.

05.12.06 SENT Data Protection Act LETTER TO ANTONY AT ABBEY IN BRADFORD TODAY

12.01.07 Request Letter Sent

23.01.07 LBA Sent

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Dear Sp00ky, 16th dec.

We did advise of special needs which First choice acknowledged br sending a reply via thomes cook.The form my wife singned and returned says only they cannot guarantee special needs, and further that we have checked the suitability of the resort and accommodation, and are happy to continue.Of course there was no way we could check this information prior to departure.We singned because we thought this was a special needs form, which clearly it is not.We were not given any number to ring.I suppose that is why(despite ringing first choice on three occasions prior to departure to check the special needs had been arranged) on arrival at the airports on either side, arrival and departure no special needs had been arranged jkr.

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Hi jkr.....

 

It definatley sounds to me like you did not have a package holiday. This alters things, how exactly I'm not sure yet. I need to do some digging around for you and come back to you. I cant do anything tonight as I am going out for a meal with my hubby as it is my b-day tommorros, "happy birthday to me!"

 

I am going to try and make enquiries with ABTA for you on Monday and see what they suggest you do. I'm not 100% sure what the regulations are etc for a "dynamic package". My first port of call IMO would be to complain like stink to the booking agents for mis-leading you about what you had booked, ie: you were lead to believe at the time of booking it was a package, not flights and accomm seperate. They have a duty to advise you of this. Secondly, they also have a duty to tell Medhotels about people in your party with disabilites and to make sure the property is suitalbe for you as guests BEFORE you go. Medhotels on their website do have specific hotels with "disabled room" facilities, be it that they are larger with special fixings and fittings. The room type you were booked into will show on your invoice / accommodation voucher. This is the agents fault as far as I am concerned. Not medhotels. They book medhotels themselves on the internet... I do it numerous times a day!!

 

If they had done their job properly they would know whether the hotel is suitable or not.

 

If you can leave this with me til after the weekend, I will see what info I can turn up for you. Rosicotton may know the road to go down, she seems much more legally minded than my-self!

 

Take care and I will post again soon.

 

Heidi

I am not a legal expert, any advice I give is based purley on experience or opinion.

Please tip the scales if you feel I have helped you!! :D

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to rosie cotton 17th Dec,

You may have seen the thread from heidi which raises a number of questions!Do you think I am going after the right company, thomas cook, amd Med-Hotels are involved?I have accused First Choice of mis-selling the holiday but not in the contexet that heidi has suggested.Do I write to them on this single issue in addition to the letter I have already sent?I await your reply with anticipation.If heidi is reading this thankyou again. jkr.

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First of all, apologies for not picking up on the Medhotels being separate entities etc - it's been years since I've actually been on a holiday so I assumed First Choice were operators rather than agents.

 

One quick question before I go any further - did the agent put together the flights and hotel for you, and did you pay them for it as one holiday (i.e. one total sum, without any breakdown of costs)?

 

The PTRs state that the definition of a package is:

 

"package" means the pre-arranged combination of at least two of the following components when sold or offered for sale at an inclusive price and when the service covers a period of more than twenty-four hours or includes overnight accommodation:—

 

(a) transport;

(b) accommodation;

© other tourist services not ancillary to transport or accommodation and accounting for a significant proportion of the package,

 

If First Choice pre-arranged this for you at an inclusive price, then in my opinion it should be treated as a package holiday.

 

Did you have any say about the flights and hotels - did you specifically choose them or were they offered to you by First Choice?

Please note I'm not insured in this capacity, so if you need to, do get official legal advice.

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Incidentally I happen to know the Trading Standards national lead officer for the Package Travel Regulations (met him on a course a while back) so come Monday I'll drop him an email to see what his thoughts are. Not sure if he'll get back straightaway as he's a pretty busy person, but it might help to solidify some things as this does seem to be pretty complex!

Please note I'm not insured in this capacity, so if you need to, do get official legal advice.

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Dear Rosie, 17th mDec.

Thankyou for youe email.In answer to your questions;The agent First Choice put together the flights and hotel for us for which we paid an all-inclusive price.We had no say about the flights or hotel which were supplied by the agent First Choice.Thankyou again for your continuing support. jkr.

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In which case I have no doubt that this is a package holiday.

 

In a rush now so can't type more but I will think on this some more and see if there's anything that should be added.

Please note I'm not insured in this capacity, so if you need to, do get official legal advice.

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Hi, just to add to what Rosiecotton has put. First Choice agents will find themselves in very deep water if this is what they have done. If they have put a holiday together for you by means of seperate flights and accommodation, they should have charged you 2 different amounts, one for the flights, then one for the accommodation. By taking a total cost from you and not itemising, they have acted as a tour operator and sold you a package (which you holiday was not!!), which the agency is not licenced to do! I think on this point alone you stand in a very strong position. I am about to try and contact ABTA for you for some advice. Ill post again when I know some more.

 

Kind regards

 

Heidi

I am not a legal expert, any advice I give is based purley on experience or opinion.

Please tip the scales if you feel I have helped you!! :D

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Hi Jkr,

 

Just spoken to a lovely guy at ABTA called Dennis. He has advised that if you have sent more than 2 letters to First Choice re: your complaint, then you should contact Abta, sending in your complaint and any documentation you have, correspondence, invoices ticket stubbs atc (take photocopies of all) and they will advise on the next step, be it arbitration, small claims atc.

 

He aggrees that you were mis-sold the holiday UNLESS they hold their own ATOL licence, which they may do, however, I would have thought that the agents would work under a totally seperate set of rules and only have an abta number! I used to work at Going Places about 10 yrs ago which are owned by Airtours (now mytravel) and we only had an abta. If you have any details of their ABTA number and a telephone number for them (First choice) please private message me with it (click on my name and go into private message) and I wil make sone enquiries as to whether or not they have an Atol licence or not, if not, they could be in seriuos trouble.... so lets hope not for your sake!

 

Heidi

I am not a legal expert, any advice I give is based purley on experience or opinion.

Please tip the scales if you feel I have helped you!! :D

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I have just had quite a lengthy conversation with First Choice H/o re: they ATOL query. No one seems to be able to help me at the moment. A really nice lady has tried to help me and is passing my query onto to some-one who will be ringing me back.

 

I am trying to find ouy if the agencies are govenred by the ATOL licence also. I really could do with knowing the dtls of the agency that have booked the holiday for you, like their address, ABTA no and telephone number, if you want to give it to me also you booking refernece number (by private message so it wont show on the forums if you want to keep it private) also if you have it the name of the agent who dealt with you.... this is a long shot I know!!

 

Thank you for your patience

 

Oh by the way, ABTA's dtls are

 

Consumer Affairs

ABTA Ltd.

68-71 Newman St

London

W1T 3AH

 

0207 637 2444

 

 

Kind regards

 

Heidi

I am not a legal expert, any advice I give is based purley on experience or opinion.

Please tip the scales if you feel I have helped you!! :D

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Dear Heidi, 18th Dec.

Thankyou for your sterling work so far.Can I answer your quiries in parts;

To reiterate, when we booked the holiday we thought it was an-inclusive with First Choice.We had no idea it was split into two component parts and suppliers.The payment on booking on 11/07/05 to first choice via Lloyds TSB credit card was £2671 which was adjusted down because of unwarrented charges.The original paperwork, booking summary and invoice dated 18/07/05 states forthcoming holiday is with Thomas Cook Holidays;

 

Thomas Cook- flighta only £1370.

 

Holiday travel &coach travel(diana travel) Med-Holtels.

coach travel £110.00

Holiday accommodation £918.

 

First Choice state act as agents for Thomas Cook Holidays ATOL No:1368.

 

Details of First Choice ABTA No:J8086.

Tel: 08701975199, agent Kathleen Atkins ext:2041

Booking Ref:850 00000207957, operators' ref:S206548T.

 

Agency Details:

 

First Choice Travel,

Dunedin House,

Columbia Drive,

Thornaby,

Stockton-on-Tees.

Cleveland.

TS17 6BJ.

 

I hope this is helpful, and should you need anything else please let me know?I don't no how to send you a private message.Thankyou again.

Best regards,

jkr.

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The contractual position is very interesting.

 

What First Choice appear to be saying is that they acted as a travel agent who sold component parts of a holiday that could have been taken seperately or, as in this case, as a whole. They'll (probably) be relying on the recent ABTA v CAA court case that said that agents don't necessarily need to offer financial protection because if they sell component parts of a holiday.

 

Imagine someone walks into a travel agent and asks about a holiday to Paris. They might buy flights, taxi transfer and accommodation. Or, they might just buy the hotel and decide to buy the flights seperately.

 

But, if they do buy something that could be considered a package but it's clearly identified on the bill/receipt/paperwork what each component part costs then it doesn't matter if you're charged one total cost. The agent can happilly say that they are the agent for a whole series of seperate suppliers (airlines, hoteliers, coach companies).

 

But...this ABTA v CAA case refers to financial protection and not the responsibility of a tour operator/holiday company for 'quality complaints' overseas.

 

Look at the Hone v Going Places case for a more relevant issue. Here Going Places advertised a holiday on teletext and there were problems on the holiday (a flight evacuation, but that doesn't matter). By the time the complaint came in, the tour operator had since gone bust but the customer sued Going Places saying that they were, in effect, the tour operator because they never referred to the existence of a different tour operator in any of their telephone conversations and in their subsequent documentation.

 

It's called an 'undisclosed principal' and means that the agent can no longer declare itself 'independent' from the contract.

 

This appears to be very relevant to your complaint. It will probably depend on how clear your paperwork was and how the actual holiday was described in the phone conversation.

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to NFMac, 18th Dec.

Thankyou for your very interesting comments.As we booked the holiday of a First Choice teletext page advertising in our booking an all-inclusive holiday which is what we referred to when we spoke to the booking agent.As far as we were concerned we booked and paid for a 14 day all-inclusive hoiday to turkey through First Choice.They say they did not record the call!The paperwork is as I have decribed to Hiedi.Perhaps you could be a little more specific in what you would look for if you had the documents in front of you.

 

Best regards,

 

jkr.

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You might have said elsewhere, but, how long before travelling did you book the holiday? Did you have the paperwork for enough time to look through it and make any queries? What First Choice will probably say is that you had time to query the paperwork (so, in effect the contract) and that as you didn't you must have been happy with the contents.

 

Plus...I guess that the teletext advert page would have had something like a standard thing saying 'holidays sold subject to terms and conditions' or 'holidays sold as component parts from different suppliers'.

 

So...without putting words in your mouth...if you did have the paperwork for a while you would still say that you were not made aware of the different suppliers at the time of booking (so, at the opportunity to not book or to not continue with the contract) and that, as you were telephoning a 'blue-chip' company that was a tour operator and a travel agent, you would have expected that the sales advisor would have explicitly advised you - someone travelling with a disabled family member - that you were not travelling on a traditional package, that you wouldn't receive the same level of resort service and that your contracts were with a variety of suppliers.

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Yes, it is hard to decide without seeing the paperwork whether this is a package, since there does appear to have been some itemisation.

 

Tricky one, but thanks for digging up that case - it is very interesting.

 

I have contacted the Trading Standards national lead officer for package travel and asked for his thoughts, will post again once I have a response from him.

Please note I'm not insured in this capacity, so if you need to, do get official legal advice.

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to NFMac: 18th Dec.

Thanks again for your comments.I can emphatically state that we were not made aware of the different suppliers at the time of booking.The sales adviser did not explicity advise us that we were not travelling on a traditional package.To be frank, how can we, as the general public be expected to know the in and out of booking different types of holidays.As far as we were concerned we had booked an all-inclusive holiday with First Choice, and expected the level of service we had paid and requested.Would a judge see it this way?

 

jkr.

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Jkr, you would not be expected to know what to look for in the paperwork. You said in your first post that you thought Medhotels were part of the First Choice group, which of course they are not, but as no-one has told you otherwise, how are you to know!!

 

Its no big surprise that no-one has called me back from First Choice as yet.... not that I really expected them to when I expl why I was calling in the first place!! Thank you for the information you have posted for me. I will make good use of it with your permission to try and find out what I need to, to help you. They will not speak to me on a case specific basis as they have to consider data protection, but they should be able to answer some very interesting questions. I'll let you knw how I get on.

 

Heidi

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I am not a legal expert, any advice I give is based purley on experience or opinion.

Please tip the scales if you feel I have helped you!! :D

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OK, the TS lead officer has confirmed my thoughts.

 

Unless First Choice made it clear to you that you were paying two separate amounts for the flights and the accommodation, then they have to be treated as selling those two elements as a package deal. Therefore, they are the Organiser for the purposes of the Package Travel Regulations and are responsible under Section 15 (as in my first post) for the failures.

 

They may try to avoid liability by claiming that they were only the agents for the airline and hotel company - but as they have acted in putting together this package themselves, they make themselves tour operators and therefore are responsible.

 

Unless they told you at the time that the flights and hotel were individual purchases, you have a case against them.

Please note I'm not insured in this capacity, so if you need to, do get official legal advice.

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Dear Rosiecotton, 19th Dec.

Thankyou again for your spendid efforts on my behalf!Do you think this decision strengthens my case against Lloyds Credit Cards?

 

Best regards,

 

jkr.

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Hi Jkr,

 

I have just had a conversation with a girl named Shelley in customer services 0870 1975199,

 

They can act as a tour operator, as the Atol licence they have for the Operator side of things covers the agency side too, so unfortunately they were allowed to do what they did! And as Rosiecotton said in the above post, you need to make a claim under the PTR's.

 

However, you should have been made aware that this is what was being booked and still have a right to complain that this was not explained to you. Shelley has suggested that you seperate your issues into 2 seperate complaints, one complaint against the booking agent for not actioning your requests regarding the disabled access and assistance, and one to Medhotels re: the complaints about the hotels, sending both in to First Choice.

 

I would have thought my-self that as First Choice are acting as the tour operator, that they would be responsible for the Medhotels section of your holiday. I would mention that in your letter to them!

 

I will send you a private message shortly. To access it, see your name above these posts and click on private messages.

 

Not the best news I'm afraid, but at least we know where we stand now!

 

Heidi

I am not a legal expert, any advice I give is based purley on experience or opinion.

Please tip the scales if you feel I have helped you!! :D

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to Rosiecotton, 19th Dec.

I wonder if you have had time to look at Hiedi's thread.She has suggested, under the circustances making 3 sepaprate complaints, one against the booking agent, re disabled assistance,another against Med-Hotels, one each on the suitability of the first hotel, and,another against the second hotel er, gassing,

She has also proposed that with my consent she could interviene directly with First Choice to try and help.What are your thoughts here?Thankyou in anticipation.

 

PS:First Choice received my letter of total complaint today- should I let this run?I do expect the same reply as earlier.

 

Best regards,

 

jkr.

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