Your parking ticket may be unlawful

[seylectric]

Nice one Robert, Brighton council should have the info you require (or should point you in the right direction).

[robert_harper_2000]

Well, got the parking address off the internet and re-worded the DPA letter from this websites DPA.

 

Will keep you posted

[seylectric]

16 days now since I sent in my tickets (4 in total) and there has been no reply yet.

 

This is VERY interesting because 4 days ago my stepson sent in an appeal for a Notice to Owner he recieved (his appeal was on the basis that he knew nothing about the alleged ticket, it wasn't stuck to the car window when he returned) but his appeal was rejected: They "have found no grounds for the cancellation of the charge" and state that "the PCN was correctly issued." Really? It might well have been issued but it wasn't on his car when he got to it, that's a breach of the legal requirements.

 

But my point is that they replied to this in four days but haven't managed to reply to mine in sixteen (which believe me is very unusual for the council). My guess is that they will sweep this under the carpet, I'm not expecting any sort of reply to mine.

 

I did get an email from Neil Herron today who has suggested that because of the wording - "Date of Offence" - they are suggesting that I committed a criminal offence, I never thought of it that way!

 

 

My main concern is that if these tickets are found to have been issued unlawfully all over the country, councils will issue less tickets and choose to tow away cars more often instead.

[seylectric]

Update:

 

It just goes to show there is one rule for them and another one for the rest of us. For those of you who have been following this thread you will remember that my car was nearly towed away recently for parking outside my house in a residents parking area with no permit - I hadn't renewed it on time (council's fault). Seemingly it was quite acceptable for the council to block the road off with a tow truck for 15 minutes though - at the expense of the taxpayer since they didn't get to tow away my car.

 

The council have just opened a new park/play area around the corner from where I live and despite the fact that they have a parking area in side the park complex, there were three council vans parked on the corner just outside the park. The parking area - 20 yards away - was empty. One van was parked in a residents parking space and the other two parked on a tight corner, both on double yellow lines.

 

I phoned the parking office and told them to get someone round, but they said council vans were allowed to park there if on official business. I asked why it was acceptable to cause a hazard when there was an empty parking area in the park 20 yards away but he told me that was a matter for the park manager. B'locks.

 

Two hours later one of the vans was still parked on the corner. But you or I would have been ticketed at the least and possibly towed. So it's wrong to cause a hazard and right that you should get a ticket/towed unless you happen to be driving a van with "Blackpool Council" written on the side of it. Disgusted.

 

 

No reply yet re. the parking tickets.

[joneshousehold]

You ought to get the local press on to the council vans parking next time. Someone in our area did it with the police with their speed cameral vans. After about 3 or 4 bits of adverse publicity they soon changed. It didn't stop the speed vans but at least they stopped parking them illegally

[deemacperth]

Latest update on Southend PCN's. Fighting the ticket and have just had my appeal rejected. Worded my appeal to PATAS so waiting for my hearing now.

 

If anyones interested, here's the wording.

 

The contravention did not occur:

• I was in XXXXXXX collecting luggage and considered myself to be loading my vehicle. My colleague has corroborated this fact. I have enclosed a photocopy of my colleague’s letter. I have already explained twice to Southend on Sea council that the parking ticket on display was from earlier that morning. I had left and returned to assist my colleague.

The traffic order was invalid:

• I question the validity of the PCN as the PCN in question does not have the date of issue clearly marked as per the instructions of Section 66 (3) Road Traffic Act 1991 and does not adhere to the standards demonstrated clearly by the DoT model ticket. I refer the appeal panel to their learned colleague’s decisions in Macarthur v. Bury Metropolitan Borough Council and Aldridge v. Westminster City Council. As such, there is some confusion as to when the legal timeframe runs from the PCN which is implicitly required by RTA 1991 S66.

• I question the validity of the PCN as the PCN in question states “You are therefore required to pay a penalty of £60 within 28 days. The charge will be reduced to £30 if payment is received within 14 days.” contained in the information on the front of the PCN. I find this confusing as it implies payment of the penalty is required from the driver of the vehicle whereas in fact liability rests with the owner of the vehicle. This information is again repeated on the back of the PCN as follows: “If payment is not received within 14 days, you will be required to pay £60 (the full amount of the notice).” This conflicts with Section 66 (2) Road Traffic Act 1991 and does not adhere to the standards demonstrated clearly by the DoT model ticket.

 

My PCN is the usual bog standard one you get, has Date on it, but not date of issue. Also the owding on the back is ambiguous about who pays. this a point that hasn't been argued on it's own as of yet because the date of issue matter is enough to get the matter struck out. With these things, it's always better to give them as much ammunition as possible to strike the ticket out.

[seylectric]

It's the almost automatic rejections that annoy me the most. As I said, we're supposed to comply with the law but they seem to think they can do what they please.

[deemacperth]

The way you combat that is to apply for full costs at the PATAS hearing. PATAS and NPAS (think I've got that right) will only issue costs for cases which have been vexatious at heart.

 

As Southend council clearly know the PCN wording is wrong due to the previously PATAS circular in March I believe it was, they are defending an indefensible case.

[JonCris]

16 days now since I sent in my tickets (4 in total) and there has been no reply yet.

 

This is VERY interesting because 4 days ago my stepson sent in an appeal for a Notice to Owner he recieved (his appeal was on the basis that he knew nothing about the alleged ticket, it wasn't stuck to the car window when he returned) but his appeal was rejected: They "have found no grounds for the cancellation of the charge" and state that "the PCN was correctly issued." Really? It might well have been issued but it wasn't on his car when he got to it, that's a breach of the legal requirements.

 

But my point is that they replied to this in four days but haven't managed to reply to mine in sixteen (which believe me is very unusual for the council). My guess is that they will sweep this under the carpet, I'm not expecting any sort of reply to mine.

 

I did get an email from Neil Herron today who has suggested that because of the wording - "Date of Offence" - they are suggesting that I committed a criminal offence, I never thought of it that way!

 

 

My main concern is that if these tickets are found to have been issued unlawfully all over the country, councils will issue less tickets and choose to tow away cars more often instead.

 

Without the rest of the procedure in place they can't.

 

If one part fails it all fails. They can't cherry pick.

[JonCris]

Update:

 

It just goes to show there is one rule for them and another one for the rest of us. For those of you who have been following this thread you will remember that my car was nearly towed away recently for parking outside my house in a residents parking area with no permit - I hadn't renewed it on time (council's fault). Seemingly it was quite acceptable for the council to block the road off with a tow truck for 15 minutes though - at the expense of the taxpayer since they didn't get to tow away my car.

 

The council have just opened a new park/play area around the corner from where I live and despite the fact that they have a parking area in side the park complex, there were three council vans parked on the corner just outside the park. The parking area - 20 yards away - was empty. One van was parked in a residents parking space and the other two parked on a tight corner, both on double yellow lines.

 

I phoned the parking office and told them to get someone round, but they said council vans were allowed to park there if on official business. I asked why it was acceptable to cause a hazard when there was an empty parking area in the park 20 yards away but he told me that was a matter for the park manager. B'locks.

 

Two hours later one of the vans was still parked on the corner. But you or I would have been ticketed at the least and possibly towed. So it's wrong to cause a hazard and right that you should get a ticket/towed unless you happen to be driving a van with "Blackpool Council" written on the side of it. Disgusted.

 

 

No reply yet re. the parking tickets.

 

Councils vans are not exempt. Not unless they got blue lights & a siren

[JonCris]

That's Neil Herron's site, thanks for the link though, I hadn't realised it had not been posted yet.

 

Probably the best of those who are fighting this "cash machine" attitude of the local councils. Mr. Heeron's team have now published a copy of my PCN on the website.

 

Yes Neils site is great. Read this http://www.bwmaonline.com/Robin%20de%20Crittenden's%20NPAS%20hearing.htm it'll warm the cockles of your heart. Apart from Mr Critteden who's wonderful (I would have paid good money to be there) you'll see Neils evidence

[seylectric]

Yes, I'm aware of the metric martyrs case. It's dodgy ground though, some judges seem to allow it others don't and so it wouldn't get you a result in every case (otherwise the whole system would have been scrapped by now).

 

My case is based on far more fundamental current law. The tickets were issued unlawfully because they are incorrectly worded. I have therefore been unlawfully harrassed by the council and their bailiffs for previous unpaid tickets. I'm not just looking to get my tickets cancelled, I want everybody else's cancelled too. I will be looking for a complete overhaul of the system, the head of the parking manager (ok then, his job) and compensation for three years of harrassment by the bailiffs, who regardless of whether or not the tickets were legal were unlawfully harrassing me anyway, such as threatening to take my car even though they had been told it was for business use - which effectively mean they can't.

[deemacperth]

Actually, as it was ratio decidendi of the case, it's binding on all lower courts. A county court judge cannot go against a higher courts judgement.

It's when it reaches the divisonal levels of the High Court that the decision is not binding.

[seylectric]

Good post, very accurate info.

[JonCris]

Actually, as it was ratio decidendi of the case, it's binding on all lower courts. A county court judge cannot go against a higher courts judgement.

 

It's when it reaches the divisonal levels of the High Court that the decision is not binding.

 

As you didn't add a quote can you tell me which case your referring too

[deemacperth]

The Metric Martyrs case was appealed in the divisional court of the high court. That’s when Lord Justice Laws made his statement about the bill of rights being an important document of constitutional stature and had to be implicitly repealed.

 

As it was part of his reasons for dismissing the appeal it was ratio decidendi whereas if it had just been an observation to a question of law it would have been obiter dictum and not binding.

[rogerebaker]

I managed to get myself a parking ticket for staying slightly longer than the permitted free 1 hour yesterday.

 

Having read the comments in this thread it appears that it may be invalid.

 

No date of issue other than on the payment slip.

 

No Colour of vehicle

 

The time my vehicle was first spotted is also not recorded on the ticket. I would have thought this was vital as I was allowed 1 hour free.

 

Is it worth appealing ?

 

Should I pay the 30 quid fine within the 14 days but state that it is without any addmission of guilt. I dont want the ticket to double.

[JonCris]

I managed to get myself a parking ticket for staying slightly longer than the permitted free 1 hour yesterday.

 

Having read the comments in this thread it appears that it may be invalid.

 

No date of issue other than on the payment slip.

 

No Colour of vehicle

 

The time my vehicle was first spotted is also not recorded on the ticket. I would have thought this was vital as I was allowed 1 hour free.

 

Is it worth appealing ?

 

Should I pay the 30 quid fine within the 14 days but state that it is without any addmission of guilt. I dont want the ticket to double.

 

What sort of car park was it:?:

[rogerebaker]

It was street parking with one hour free

[seylectric]

I managed to get myself a parking ticket for staying slightly longer than the permitted free 1 hour yesterday.

 

Having read the comments in this thread it appears that it may be invalid.

 

No date of issue other than on the payment slip.

 

No Colour of vehicle

 

The time my vehicle was first spotted is also not recorded on the ticket. I would have thought this was vital as I was allowed 1 hour free.

 

Is it worth appealing ?

 

Should I pay the 30 quid fine within the 14 days but state that it is without any addmission of guilt. I dont want the ticket to double.

 

PAY NOTHING. You will have a much harder time getting it back than you will geting the ticket cancelled. If there is no "Date of Issue" and "Date of Contravention" (nothing else will do) no the TICKET, not the payment slip then the ticket is invalid. The answers are all in this thread and the posted links, but if you want to appeal the ticket then you will need to read the thread. Besides, if you pay they will take that as an admission of guilt anyway (and at any subsequent appeal a judge or adjudicator is likely to assume the same if you have already paid)

 

Read this thread then APPEAL. Don't let them get away with it, you might also have a point about the observation time but it's irrelevant anyway is the ticket is wrongly worded, and from what you have told us here, it is.

 

Nearly a month now since I sent in FOUR parking tickets claiming they were void since the wording was illegal and no reply; my feeling is the council know I have them bang to rights with this. Normally they send a reply (usually a rejection) in 4-5 days.

[rogerebaker]

Good point about the payment appeal letter ready to be posted tomorrow.

 

I would place a scanned copy on the thread if I could work out how to do it

 

any ideas

[Rich44]

Quick bit of advice needed, is this one legally enforcable or not?

 

Makes me laugh there was a permit on the dashboard, they must be blind I think lol. I'd just like to have my facts straight before mouthing off at them.

 

[Movingon]

That actually looks like it has all the bits it's supposed to have I'm afraid... the onus is now on you to prove that you DID in fact have a permit displayed...

[seylectric]

You reckon? I don't see a "Date of Issue" or a "date of Contravention", both should be shown on the ticket. I know there's a lot to get through but all the info is here in this thread.

[Rich44]

Its about the 4th time they've done it and they've scrubbed all the others so I have no reason to doubt they will this one just fancied upsetting the council with it lol.

 

Yeah ive read the thread and I thought it was missing the necessary bits but I just wanted some of you helpful chaps to double check before I make an ass of myself hehehe (happens all the time)

 

This is what happens when your wardens are on commission