Double Whammy - Get One PCN, Get One Free

[Beesnees]

Except, of course, that it isn't 'free'.

 

My daughter is a named driver on our policy and has occasional use of our 2nd car. The plan is that we transfer ownership over to her sometime next year, but in the meantime I'm the registered keeper.

 

Unfortunately, after parking it on her way to work the other day, she failed to notice that our fairly expensive parking permit had fallen off the windscreen face down onto the dash - we think possibly due to condensation. Cue the first PCN from Greenwich Council. To compound the misfortune, she walked home that night, and managed to collect another PCN on the following day.

 

Does she cough up the fine x2 (£130), or have a fighting chance of a successful appeal? Any advice on her next step would be much appreciated

Edited November 6, 2019 by Beesnees
Humour?

[Beesnees]

Correction to the OP. My daughter now informs me that it actually fell on the car floor, so may well have been completely out of view. I doubt that would have made any difference to the issue of the PCN's though. And the combined penalty is £110, not £130.

[ericsbrother]

try putting in an appeal as they will know from the registration that a permit was issued so the fact that it had fallen to the floor may be considered such a minor point as to be "de minimis" (there is plenty of case precedent going both ways so not a certainty).

 

Point out that the 2 tickets issued were for a contiguous single event so in any event the second one was improperly issued.

 

always worth a try before the discount period is up.

[Beesnees]

Thanks ericsbrother. Appreciated.

 

I'll give it a go on her behalf.

[Beesnees]

Was quite surprised to get this after almost 3 months since my appeal. 

 

1. Is there any chance they are out of time as regards any possible deadlines for rejecting an appeal?

 

2. Is it worth risking a doubling of the fine to go thru the appeals process?

 

Thanks. 

 

 

 

Greenwich PCN_Appeal Rejection Letter.pdf

[spaceman61]

What you have posted does not appear to be a formal Notice of Rejection.

 

There is no legal time limit for responding to informal challenges, which this appears to be.

 

Have you received a Notice to Owner?

 

[Beesnees]

Not yet. Expecting it to arrive any day now. I will then be making a formal appeal, which seems a complete waste of time, since it's adjudicated again by the council. My appeal will almost certainly be rejected again, but I guess I hafta go thru the motions anyway.  

 

I have now foregone my right to a discounted fine, which I think now stands at £110. I intend following up a rejection with an appeal to the independent adjudicator. Will anybody here be able to assist me with grounds for an appeal that stands a chance of success?

[Beesnees]

Any advice on possible grounds for appeal would be much appreciated. Many thanks.

NTO_Merged_File.pdf

[Beesnees]

As my appeal period is rapidly diminishing, any danger of a response to my query above anytime soon please? 

[honeybee13]

Hi.

 

CAG is a self help forum, as you may know. What have you uncovered through your own research please? If you share it with us then hopefully people can help you word your appeal.

 

HB

[Beesnees]

The only thing Iv'e found to date revolves around 'mitigating circumstances', which is not entirely satisfactory. The relevant para. says:

 

Quote

You bought a ticket/had a permit but it fell off the window or was not visible to the warden (technically it's your responsibility to display the ticket correctly, so prepare for possible defeat, but it's worth appealing).

 

Seems to suggest it could go either way, so I was hoping to find something a bit more substantial than that. For example, could the de minimis defence apply in my specific circs? And how realistic is it to expect the driver to remember to check on every occasion that the permit is in place?

Again, as I pointed out in my initial (informal) appeal - if the permit fell after or soon after the door was shut [which is equally entirely possible], on what reasonable grounds can that give rise to a punitive fine? Most reasonable ppl would agree that no offence or contravention was knowingly committed. 

But if there are no specific/formal grounds on which I can appeal, then I will just re-submit my original appeal & hope for the best. 

[Beesnees]

BTW, I should also point out that I came across a seriously dodgy site in my travels. DoNotPay.co.uk should be avoided like the plague:

https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/donotpay.com

And I strongly suspect that all (or most of) those 5* reviews are fake.

You have been warned! 

Edited March 23, 2020 by Beesnees

[BankFodder]

I'm not surprised at what you say about this DoNotPay website

[spaceman61]

Go to the London Tribunal's website and have a look through their key cases. You may find something useful there.

[Beesnees]

Thanks spaceman. I might just do that after I've drafted my defence - just to make sure I've covered all the bases.

 

Would my defence be of any interest/use to you guys, or the members? I'd be happy to copy it here too if so.