"Total Charges" are we sure they are unlawful?

[the_final_straw]

As the title says really.

 

This a HSBC Business Account

 

I've gone through my statements and for a particular 3 month period I was well within my agreed overdraft limit:-

£5,000 agreed overdraft limit. Maximum overdrawn amount was £950 during that period.

 

Why then have I got:

 

Total Charges to 31 Aug 06 £30.74

Interest to 31 Aug 06 £21.82

 

I'm puzzled! surely I should have incurred no "Total Charges" during the period or "Total Charges" are not unlawful charges and are not reclaimable?

 

Any help anyone?

 

This the statement copied from maverick sticky at the top of the page - HSBC charges please read

 

"total charges" refers to the charge they put on your account for going over your overdraft limit, this charge is calculated daily, and they can charge up to a maximum of £125 in one month for this, it is then debited from your account on a set date every month

[jimfishybob]

I suspect this is a question you should be asking your bank. Ring them and ask them.

[the_final_straw]

Hello Mr Bank Manager, are these charges unlawful?

 

 

Any ideas how I might ask this question and get anything other than a brush off?

 

We know what they're going to say - they are our published tarriffs blah blah blah...

 

Even when we (and they) are certain the charge is unlawful they are still sending offers of full compensation and letters stating they are not unlawful charges, but as a gesture of goodwill we will pay blah blah blah..

 

So what chance of the bank giving me a straight answer to a straight question?

[Guest bong]

hi TFS, found a couple of HSBC business claims threads that might help. Neither have been settled yet though

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/26925-business-account-over-19-a.html?highlight=business#post209733

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/19532-gbzstro-hsbc-multiple-accounts.html#post152244

 

good luck!

[gizmo111]

As the title says really.

 

This a HSBC Business Account

 

I've gone through my statements and for a particular 3 month period I was well within my agreed overdraft limit:-

£5,000 agreed overdraft limit. Maximum overdrawn amount was £950 during that period.

 

Why then have I got:

 

Total Charges to 31 Aug 06 £30.74

Interest to 31 Aug 06 £21.82

 

I'm puzzled! surely I should have incurred no "Total Charges" during the period or "Total Charges" are not unlawful charges and are not reclaimable?

 

Any help anyone?

 

This the statement copied from maverick sticky at the top of the page - HSBC charges please read

 

"total charges" refers to the charge they put on your account for going over your overdraft limit, this charge is calculated daily, and they can charge up to a maximum of £125 in one month for this, it is then debited from your account on a set date every month

 

I would imagine that these are legitimate charges that are imposed on a business bank account and do not seem to reflect in a nyway the charges for bouncing a cheque, DD or being overlimit etc.

You could ask the branch what they are actually for and will probably find they are for paying money in and withdrawing funds etc.

[the_final_straw]

bong,

as usual you've come up trumps! Thanks for those links especially GBZSTRO Vs HSBC I cant wait for the next instalment! this persons case is virtually indentical to mine (although my charges are considerably higher!)

 

gizmo,

 

I completely understand your points. Indeed, that is what went through my mind when looking at the "Total Charges".

 

BUT some of these "Total Charges" range up to £500 when I was over my agreed overdraft limit.

 

From the information they have given me (duplicate statements) I have no way of seperating standard business tarriff charges and unlawful charges.

 

The next point (as highlighted in the case above) even if they are 'standard business charges' charging me £25.00 to deposit a cheque for £20 cant be considered fair just because I was over my agreed limit?

 

Surely this is a punitive charge and merely compounds the problem of being over my agreed limit?

 

 

 

Have I just answered my own question?

 

If you were HSBC what would you say to them apples?

[jimfishybob]

Hello Mr Bank Manager, are these charges unlawful?

 

 

 

I mean, ring them and ask what the charges were for. It does seem an odd amount to be default charges.

[the_final_straw]

You're right jimfishbob,

 

It does seem like a very odd amount, thats what made stop and think. But some of these charges do go up to £500 plus interest charges.

 

I know as a business customer I will pay for lots of things that my personal HSBC account receives for free, 'paying in' and writing cheques etc - but £500 in 8 weeks!!

 

All of my business banking is broken down very clearly and precisely on the statements...apart from "TOTAL CHARGES"

 

Example statment - (I am not trying reclaim any of these)

 

HSBC Acquiring - £202.94 (merchant banking fees)

Renewal fee - £75.00 (relates to overdraft facility)

Switch Maestro - £101.24 (merchant banking charges)

Terminal chrg - £45.00 (relates to PDQ machine)

TFR - £77.57 (electronic banking charges)

Freq Stmt £1.00 (monthly statement fee)

 

Then, at the end of that month I have this -

 

Total Charges £417.91

Interest 75.95

 

I accept that some of the "TOTAL CHARGES" will be 'paying in' and writing cheques but I cant get these figures to tally with the amount of cheques or the payments paid into the account.

 

I'd prefer to write to them as I dont trust what they would tell me on the phone.

 

Any ideas on a nicely worded ambigous letter to send. I dont want to scare them off just yet!

[HSBCrusher]

Total charges can be claimed and are on top of the other charges, not a total of the other charges.

[the_final_straw]

Thanks for that HSBCrusher,

 

OH MY GIDDY AUNT!!!

 

That puts my claim on a par with dolfos. eeek!

 

Now you can see why I was so cautious over this point.

 

I really wanted someone to hold my hand and also give me kick up the backside and get the ball rolling :o

 

I dying to say - "are you sure" and if you said yes, I'd say "are you really really sure"

[HSBCrusher]

Yep, "Total Charges" are just another charge in addition to the other stuff... they are applied for being over your OD limit.

You can claim these too, yes I am sure... really really...

[adyb]

Looking at the statements I receive for my company, the charges sheet states the following:

total of activity charges ........ 1.00

account fee .........................3.00

Overdraft fee .....................84.00

===========================

total charges ....................88.00

 

The upshot is that total charges are a total of legit charges they make, ie transaction charges and account maintenance charges plus charges for others it bounced items, overdraft charges etc.

 

You cannot just add up the total charges and expect to get that back. It isn't going to happen. In my opinion, the activity charges and account fees seem reasonable, infact they are charges for providing the relevant services.

 

It look to me that if these repesent a figure close to their actual cost for providing the services then the additional charges for bouncing itmes etc. are way over the top.

 

thoughts anyone?

[HSBCrusher]

HSBC add on day to day charges as they happen, returned dds, cheques etc.

 

If you have exceeded your overdraft limit, they roll these charges into one (at £25 pw up to a maximum of £125) which are added once a month, they appear on the statement as "TOTAL CHARGES" and are normally in multiples of £25 (of course these charges have gone up, I think it was multiples of £18 before)

 

These charges are claimable.

 

Other charges for services would not be claimable.

[adyb]

Those figures seem to be related to personal accounts. HSBC charge £4 per day on business accounts for being overdrawn over your limit. £4 a day, what a total and utter rip off.

 

total charges for business accounts includes account service charges and transaction charges. You need to check the charges page of your statements for a breakdown.

[HSBCrusher]

Yes, you are right, buisness accounts are more... £4 per day for being over an agreed overdraft... £28 per week... incredible!

Buisness or personal, these penalty charges are claimable.

 

You have got to take off any charges for services, these are not claimable, as I have said before.

[dolfos]

Those figures seem to be related to personal accounts. HSBC charge £4 per day on business accounts for being overdrawn over your limit. £4 a day, what a total and utter rip off.

 

total charges for business accounts includes account service charges and transaction charges. You need to check the charges page of your statements for a breakdown.

 

According to my husbands business account it was the bussiness debit rate plus 4 quid a day. The business debit rate ranged from 20%-28% depending on year and is on their website.

Their authorised overdraft rate was set by them after they checked out your business so differs from business to bussiness.

On the statements we had the total charges were not broken down although I believe them to be the overdraft excess fees and this 4 pound charge generally. If HSBC choose to make their charges non transparent by not breaking them down enough then when asked to give a breakdown they should. As yet in my husbands case they have chose to ignore our requests for a breakdown hence the total charges are going into our claim.

I wish you all the best with your business accoutn remember the saying 'size doesn't matter' and keep going principle is the same regardless of amount. Will keep an eye out for your thread to see how you go, be interesting to see if they honour youwith a response. I am not worthy of such:D

GOODLUCK!

[jimfishybob]

Still....

 

Where does the £21.82 and £30.74 come from?

 

Neither of these are divisible by £4.00?

 

Further, TFS claims he/she was never overdrawn.

[HSBCrusher]

 

Further, TFS claims he/she was never overdrawn.

 

Good point, I didnt spot that

 

jimmy is right, you need to find out exactly what these charges are for, then decide if they are unlawful or not.

[the_final_straw]

jimfishbob,

 

(I'm a 'him')

 

Still....

 

Where does the £21.82 and £30.74 come from?

 

Neither of these are divisible by £4.00?

Thats what I'd like to know too!

 

 

I was overdrawn during that 3 month period but was well within my £5,000 agreed overdraft limit (which they charge me for - see above breakdown) The highest OD balance was -£950 on any given day during the 3 months, so thats £4,050.00 within my agreed limit. Unless they are 'rolling forward' those charges so they appear on the statement but wont correspond exactly to the dates I'm looking at?

 

"TOTAL CHARGES" does seem a pretty strange way to do a business breakdown of charges IMHO. I wish I could submit an invoice to one of my clients for - Things: £417.91

 

I think I'm going to need to go down dolfos' route and demand a breakdown of these "TOTAL CHARGES"

 

I have been over my agreed limit (£5,000 overdraft) during the last 6 years and then the 'total charges' just go crazy! I'm talking upwards of £500 every 8 weeks - plus interest!

 

 

dolfos,

 

Which was higher on your account - 'total charges' ?

or 'recall DD, stopped cheque' and that sort of stuff? I presume those types of charges are itemised on your account? These types of charges are all broken down on my statements and are easily indentified.

 

My actual 'recall DD and stopped cheque' charges are quite low (maybe £2,000 for the 6 years)

But my 'total charges' are just massive! I'm taking upwards of £15,000 in 6 years!!

 

Is this the same for you?

 

P.S. I re-read my post on your thread and I'm sorry if it spooked you. Like you, I want to get this sorted but feel quite intimidated by the bank and as you can see on this thread, I've been getting 'for' and 'against' the 'total charges' mystery.

 

Your case will probably be over at about the time I'm going to court so if you could keep me posted I'd be most grateful.

 

 

HSBCrusher, thanks for that! I'm feeling a teeny weeny bit more confident now, but....are you really really really sure?

 

 

Regards

Straw.

[the_final_straw]

Looking at the statements I receive for my company, the charges sheet states the following:

total of activity charges ........ 1.00

account fee .........................3.00

Overdraft fee .....................84.00

===========================

total charges ....................88.00

 

The upshot is that total charges are a total of legit charges they make, ie transaction charges and account maintenance charges plus charges for others it bounced items, overdraft charges etc.

 

You cannot just add up the total charges and expect to get that back. It isn't going to happen. In my opinion, the activity charges and account fees seem reasonable, infact they are charges for providing the relevant services.

 

It look to me that if these repesent a figure close to their actual cost for providing the services then the additional charges for bouncing itmes etc. are way over the top.

 

thoughts anyone?

 

adyb,

 

I thought I'd answer your question seperatley as I'm so unsure about these 'total charges' I thought I'd give you more history -

 

My "total charges" are not all of the other fees combined. They are quite seperate charges and in addition to those mentioned below.

 

On the 3 months in question I have lots of itemised charges. Very clearly laid out and explained. I dont dispute any of these and consider them fees for services I had:

 

HSBC Acquiring - £202.94 (merchant banking fees)

Renewal fee - £75.00 (relates to overdraft facility)

Switch Maestro - £101.24 (merchant banking charges)

Terminal chrg - £45.00 (relates to PDQ machine)

TFR - £77.57 (electronic banking charges)

Freq Stmt £1.00 (monthly statement fee)

 

 

Ok, so these services I have used. I accept I have paid fees for these services. I will not try to reclaim or dispute them. I accept the overdraft fee, the statment fee, etc. etc. etc.

 

At the bottom of that statement for the period in question I have also been charged "TOTAL CHARGES" and Interest of:

Total Charges £417.91

Interest £75.95

 

During this time I was up to (and sometimes over) my agreed overdraft limit.

 

What do you reckon these charges might be?

[HSBCrusher]

But my 'total charges' are just massive! I'm taking upwards of £15,000 in 6 years!!

 

That is a really large amount! (Understatement of the year )

 

You need to find out exactly what these charges are for, there is no way on earth that they can all be lawful charges.

[the_final_straw]

HSBCrusher,

 

You're telling me!

 

After reading the link to the other thread that bong posted I have a sneaky suspicion I might know what these charges are - and if I'm right I'm going to go and puch the bank manager on the nose.

 

I had lots of small amounts coming into the account via switch, visa, Mastercard etc etc. through their terminal which I rented (thats the merchant banking mentioned above)

 

Now all of these transactions attract a % charge. Thats what the Switch and merchant banking fees refer to. On top of those fees I also paid to rent their terminal (the credit card machine) which is also mentioned above.

 

This is whats really getting me now. Why is everything broken down and explained clearly and precisely on the statements apart from 'total charges' ?

 

What are they??????

 

If I'm correct, on top of those fees they have also been charging me penalty fees on these 'deposits'

 

So that could mean I paid £20.00 or £25.00 to accept a switch payment of £6.50

 

My highest turnover on that account in any year was 100k I stupidly never questioned them before. I was too afraid they'd pull my overdraft facility or close the account if I did.

 

dolfos (or anyone),

 

What did you (or suggest) I put in the letter asking for a breakdown on these 'total charges' ?

[the_final_straw]

HSBCrusher,

 

I'm going to write to HSBC for a breakdown of them mysterious 'total charges'.

 

Do I give them 40 days or 14 days to reply?

 

If its 40 (or 14) days, do I have to deduct those days from my 6 year claim?

[Guest bong]

Hi tfs -another business account claim here which may help you http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/14403-wickerman-business-c-hsbc.html?highlight=business#post110861

 

I also wanted to say that the 'Total Charges' would probably relate to defaults in the previous month, because they are totted up and debited on a set date, unless it was something like a bounced cheque charge which goes through the same day.

[the_final_straw]

EDIT 1

 

Heres my letter guys

 

What do you think?

 

Further to my Subject Access Request,

 

I have now received the duplicate statements for this account and notice that you have only supplied me with partial information regarding some of the charges you have made against the account. In particular those worded “Total Charges” which have been applied to the account at intervals throughout the six years in question.

 

I would ask that you provide me with an exact description of each charge to show how you came to these figures for ‘Total Charges’ as you do with all the other charges applied to the account such as: HSBC Acquiring, Switch charges, Renewal fee, Bank Transfer, Interest on Charges etc. So I can account for monies taken from this account by your organisation.

As this account is held under Limited Company status, you will understand my need for detailed and accurate information concerning any money taken from this account and that I have a legal duty to account for all money withdrawn/deposited while I am the company secretary and main Director.

 

I would also ask again for any details of manual inteventions on this account (if any) be supplied to me under my Subject Access Request.

 

I do not consider ‘Total Charges’ to be clear, accurate or precise enough for anyone to adequately determine to what these charges relate.

 

The charges do not seem to correlate to the fees for services under the agreement singed with your organisation.

 

I am frankly very surprised that an organisation as large as yours would consider ‘Total Charges’ an adequate description for an invoice raised from one company to another. Indeed, I would go as far as to say you would refuse to pay a supplier who invoiced you in this manner.

 

In the interest of fairness, I shall presume this lack of information (as requested under my Subject Access Request) wasn’t noticed by your organisation and I shall send another cheque for £10 (ten pounds) and ask that this information be provided to me under my original Subject Access Request. You have 40 days in which to supply me with this information

 

Hugs and kisses

Straw xxx