Bong....help! Could you have a very quick look at this and tell me what (or how!) to do it. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/61203-n1-claim-form-compound.html

OK its time to file at court! and I'm stuck again! Reading through the FAQ's and step by step guide I have found the section to fill in the N1 claim form but I'm not quite sure how I should be calculating this to fit in with claiming the compound interest. Here is the section I'm stuck at - ............................................................. Charges £xxx.xx Overdraft Interest £xxx.xx Interest under s.69 County Courts Act 1984 £xxx.xx Court Fee £xx.xx TOTAL £ xx.xx Plus interest pursuant to S.69 County Courts Act 1984 from date of issue to date of judgement/settlement at £xx.xx per day {(enter daily rate here - (CHARGES+OD interest)x 0.00022 = pence per day) }OR at such rate and for such periods as the court deems just. ............................................................... Here are my figures: Charges £1435.50 Overdraft Interest £184.82 Compound Contractual Interest £1299.20 Can anybody help me fill in the section shown above please? I'm not sure if I should be adding another paragraph or deleting the S.69 section or the 8% section as I am claiming interest at 15.9% (or 8% in the alternative) P.S. Had a letter from the Service Quality Team yesterday offering me a full refund of £1435.50 after I sent them the LBA with the compound interest included. sorry HSBC, you owe me DOUBLE now.... You've just gotta love that compounding magic!

Bong, help!! I've looked everywhere and cant find a template for claiming the compound interest. I've modified your POC and come up with this (see below). I'm not going back further than 6 years. Do you reckon this POC is OK or would you suggest any alterations? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The Claimant has an account XXXXXX ("the Account") with the Defendant which was opened on or around March 1996 2. During the period in which the Account has been operating the Defendant debited numerous charges to the Account in respect of purported breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant and also charged interest on the charges once applied. The Claimant understands that the Defendant contends that the charges were debited in accordance with the terms of the contract between itself and the Claimant. 3. A list of the charges applied is attached to these particulars of claim. 4. The Claimant contends that: a) The charges debited to the Account are punitive in nature; are not a genuine pre-estimate of cost incurred by the Defendant; exceed any alleged actual loss to the Defendant in respect of any breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant; and are not intended to represent or related to any alleged actual loss, but instead unduly enrich the Defendant which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit. b) The contractual provision that permits the Defendant to levy such charges is unenforceable by virtue of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999), the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and the common law. c) The claimant claims compound interest on the amounts claimed - using the rate and method specified in the said contract, and applied by the defendant to monies it is owed. A schedule of the interest calculated is annexed to the Particulars of Claim at pages 3 & 4. The claimant’s ground for seeking restitution of the compounded contractual rate of interest is that the defendant would be unjustly enriched if the claimant's entitlement was limited to the statutory rate of interest in that the defendant has had use of the sums and would have used these sums to re-lend at commercial compounded rates. d) Alternatively, if the court decides that the claimant is not entitled to the contractual rate of interest, then the claimant claims interest under s.69 County Courts Act 1984. A schedule of the interest calculated is annexed to the Particulars of Claim at pages 5 & 6. 5. Accordingly the Claimant claims: a) The return of £1435.50 taken by the defendant in charges and interest applied on the charges between 06/10/2003 and 05/09/2006 of £184.82. b) Court fees c) Compound interest at the contractual rate of 15.9% AER from 06/10/2003 to 13/01/2007 of £1,283.89, and also interest compounded at the same percentage rate up to the date of judgement or earlier payment. d) In the alternative to c, interest under s.69 County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% a year, from 06/10/2003 to 13/01/2007 of £485.97 and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgement or earlier payment at a daily rate of 36p. e) Court costs; f) Interest pursuant to section 69 County Courts Act as set out on the attached list of charges or at such rate and for such periods as the court deems just. 6. Alternatively, if the charges are a fee for a service, then they must be reasonable under S.15 of the Supply of Goods and Services Act (1982). I believe that the contents of these particulars of claim are true

Just had a look at the "confusing" spreadsheet he sent me and noticed its over several pages. I thought he'd just sent me one page....D'oh It should be a doddle to sort this out. Looks my claim isnt going to break any records though

Hi barracad, Thanks for clearing that up. The blue sections - Renewal Fee: I think this is the charge for my £5,000 agreed overdraft limit. Now comes the fun bit - trying to put all of the red sections into date order..no way are they getting away from me without coughing up 25.08% compound interest

******************************************************** NOTE - This whole thread concerns **HSBC BUSINESS ACCOUNTS ONLY** Do Not Use any of this info regarding your personal acount They are completely different. ******************************************************** Heres the email I got back after I fired off my letter asking for a further breakdown: Dear Mr Straw, I would suggest that you ignore the first three characters of the descriptions as these are used internally to recognise the type of charge being levied. With this in mind - Act Comm App - this is your Money Transmission charge - in your case this is a percentage based on your turnover as indicated to you in my earlier message Returns Out - where a cheque you have written has been returned by us because of lack of (cleared) funds Returns In - where a cheque you have paid in has been returned by another bank Stopped Cheque - where you have asked us to halt payment on a cheque Inter Branch - a transfer of monies made between accounts held at different branches Recall S/O & D/D - where we have had to recall (call back payment) on a Standing Order or Direct Debit due to lack of (cleared) funds in your account Stmnt Freq - a charge made where you have asked for additional statements over and above the regular statement you would ordinarily receive Ren Fee %-Low Band - the charge made for renewing your overdraft facility - Lower Band refers to facilities below £30k and is a fairly recent introduction Renewal Fees - the historic renewal fee charge before the split referred to above Temp. Limit Fee - the fee charged for agreeing a temporary extension (uplift) to your overdraft Daily Excess Fee - our daily charge for monitoring your account where you are in excess of an overdraft facility limit or overdrawn without prior agreement. The spreadsheet is set out on a calendar monthly basis. You need to x-check the charges with the Prenotification Advices you received detailing these charges. To get to the Act Comm App charge you will need to add up your debit turnover for the period in question. Your DPA subject access enquiry will be being processed however I trust you are aware that the DPA is not intended to cover Limited Companies, being largely a consumer related protective measure, so the information you will receive may to meet expectations. I hope the above helps in your understanding of your charges. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- So, my next questions is: which bits are unlawful? Anyone? If nothing else, I hope this is throwing some much needed light on the 'Total Charges' mystery for other HSBC business customers.

TFS personal account. OK, here we go! Sent Prelim 26.11.06 Sent LBA 11.12.06 Had a letter back on Saturday saying "we'll look into your concern and get back to you by 8th Feb" Not good enough. I've given them 2 lots of 14 days and plenty of extra time. I will now press ahead with the action. I'm claiming compound contractual interest (which I have told them right from the first letter). Is there a specific MCOL template when claiming compound interest or do I just send use the standard template MCOL with additional wording?

Hi sonia, I've had this happen quite a few times due to "unusual spending" its just a bank safeguard. I found the best way to resolve the problem is to make sure your bank has your current mobile telephone number. What will usually happen is your card will be declined and at the same time you will get a call from the bank asking are you trying to spend money. When you say yes, its me trying to buy stuff in the florists they'll open your card and tell the merchant to re-try the card. It will normally pass with ease. If its only one or two charges, pop into your branch and see if they'll remove them. My girlfriend did this and they cancelled the two charges on the spot!

Contact a moderator skyrocket. I'm sorry I cant give you any advice as I havent got to the court stage yet.

Hi elsinore, You are correct (almost!) This is an example of the way your statement would look on your HSBC business accout: DR Merchant servics £125.09 DR Stmnt freq £1.00 DR Switch charges £235.60 DR Total Charges £435.06 As you can see, almost all of your charges are laid out quite clearly and precisely but the 'Total Charges' seem to be random amounts each month/quarter. I am guessing that in 'total charges' are fees for services but also unlawful charges. What the actual split is, is anyones guess because you have no means of breaking down 'total charges' Heres my main concern: My 'total charges' plus compound interest stands at £15,000 if this throws me into a higher court and I get this wrong they can claim their costs which as we all know will be enormous (probably enough to bankrupt a small country!!)

Hi natwest, It is a Limited Company business account. Mr Cuff did seem pretty confident that he was right but I have my doubts. I understand a Limited Company is a legal entity in its own right but as the company secertary and main director it is my legal duty to account for all its funds... so surely I should be able to request info on its behalf??

We appear to have another business account problem!! Jonathon Cuff at HSBC has informed me that I cannot access details of 'Total Charges' applied to my business account under S.A.R no rule or regulation was quoted just a voicemail saying: "DPA and sar dont apply to business accounts so we wont cash your £10 cheque and you cant get that info" They have already sent me the duplicate statements which only state 'Total charges' with varying amounts deducted each month. I asked for a dtailed breakdown of the 'Total Charges' This is a limited company account and I am the company secretary and main director. If they wont tell me under DPA then what method can I use to get to this info?

elsinore, natweststaffmember, I will start a new HSBC topic to save hijacking dolfos' thread. Please pop over. I have a few questions which may be pertinent.

skyrocket, This is merely in my humble opinion (dont take it as gospel!!) and what appears to be happening in my case - My business account doesnt get charged for cashing a cheque or depositing money. Instead I have been charged a flat 1% turnover charge. So in my case, I do have random 'Total Charges' amounts (just like you!) that dont seem to tally with anything.. but in fact, it appears to be part of the 'turnover charge' ----I still dont know whether this a legitimate fee for service but I suspect it is. You need to find out what agreement you signed on your business account and how they were going to charge you. Once you have this info it should make things a bit clearer.

natweststaffmember, 1. Thats good to hear. I shall fire off an email right now to Jonathon Cuff and ask him to confirm this. He might have dug a bit of a hole for himself as I have saved the message 2. Indeed. But I cant find a single won case of 'total charges' on a business account. Can you point me to a succesful 'total charges' business claim?

1. Are you absolutely 100% certain? I have emails and telephone recordings from Mr Cuff stating this very clearly...we are talking about business accounts arent we? 2. and lots of other things as well (and they are all fees for services) If you try and reclaim them and you lose ...what happens? 3. This is true. Its what I did and I got the answers I was looking for - see my posts HERE *this is not intended to hijack a thread.

**This post is for HSBC Business customers ONLY** I am at the moment in talks with Mr Cuff about my business account and I am finding out some very interesting stuff - 1. Business accounts are NOT covered by Subject Access Requests. 2. 'Total Charges' include LEGIMATE fees for services and unlawful charges. 3. You need to specifically ASK for a further breakdown of 'Total Charges' after you receive your duplicate statements. They will then provide you with a more detailed breakdown of 'Total Charges'. I would strongly urge any HSBC business account customer to thoroughly research their agreements as almost all of them will be different depending on your circumstances when the account was opened and agreed overdraft limits, merchant services, percentage turnover, individual charging structures, etc. etc. etc.. As I am discovering, Business accounts are NOT the same as personal accounts. If anyone with a HSBC BUSINESS account would like to correct me or add to this list please feel free.

I've just had exactly the same letter today but mine said "we will be back in touch by 8 Febuary" I've already done a pre lim letter and a letter before action (which expired yesterday) so I presume I just start with court proceedings now as I have allowed them 2 lots of 14 days. Anyone confirm this is correct?

skyrocket, I know how you feel. I'm going down the same route and having exactly the same problems as you. I did query the business account 'Total Charges' advice on this site right from the outset as I had a sneaky suspicion that not all of it was going to be reclaimable. Obviously, if I can, I want to back HSBC into a corner where they have to divulge ALL of their charges to the court..which they dont want to do! I'm thinking about how to do this and keeping my eyes open for any more business claims going on to see the outcome of 'Total Charges' Karnevil, quote: well they will have a breakdown, and this should be supplied to you as part of your Data Protection Act. Therefore they are in breach of the DPA by not breaking down the charges, and in my opinion that entitles yuu to claim the whole caboodle. Jonathan says its not sufficient for you to claim TOTAL CHARGES - tell him its not sufficient for them only to tell you total charges - what do you enter in your accounts if theres no breakdown ? Thats a good point, but as I have recently found out, business accounts are NOT COVERED by Data Protection (or subject access request). I've been banging on about this for some time, I really do feel that business account customers need a seperate (or sub thread) where we can discuss the ins and outs and legal complexities of business status accounts with others in the same boat and with people who have absolute cast iron proven advice. I have seen a lot of posters jumping in with advice gleened from personal accounts which has absolutley no relevance to business accounts. As most business claims are running into many many thousands of pounds (the record on this site is nearly £40,000!!) and mine personally is running to nearly £15,000 Herein lies the danger - if one of us business customers gets this wrong and HSBC manage to drag this into a higher court (which seems likley due to the amounts involved) they can claim their costs if we lose. That would bankrupt me. Just imagine how many people would be scared off claiming their legitimate unlawful charges on their personal accounts if HSBC managed to bankrupt me? They would hold up my battered and bruised body up and say - this is what happens if you take on the bank, we'll crush you. WE NEED a dedicated HSBC Business Account forum. Thats

++++ UPDATE+++ Just listened to my answerphone messages. Had a missed call this morning and it was jonny at HSBC Hello its jonny at HSBC, just to let you know that your Data Protection Act request isnt covered on your business accounts and you wont be able to get that information. If you'd like to call me back on 020.......... What the hell is going on??? Now all of a sudden I cant ask for information under S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) on my business account!!! Does anyone get the feeling I'm getting the almighty brush off? Why the hell are they being so secretive about these 'total charges' If anyone knows how to get an answerphone message from my mobile to upload I'll post this little gem up EDIT ---- and why the hell is he ringing my phone! did I not spell it out very clearly in my return email last night that "all commuincation should be via letter from now on" - see page 2 for my email last night.

Yep, the interest is reclaimable. If you use the 'search' at the top of the page and type compound interest that will bring you up quite a few threads and what to do and how to set it all out. You'll need a spreadsheet, but theres quite a few knocking around in Vamps Chambers and Mindzai has a good one too (my personal favourite!)

Yep, Personal banking is brilliantly straight forward. 'Total charges' are included on your claim. dont forget to look at charging compound contractual interest!! I submitted a personal account claim for around £1,400.00 and with the compound interest they now owe me around £3,450.00 :) Ian, you're in the same boat as me and we're both coming to very similair conclusions - they dont want us to see a detailed breakdown of 'total charges' on the business accounts for some reason...this leads me to suspect there is something fishy about them. I expect to be a constant annoyance to them until they break it down exactly as they do with their other charges. As you say, even in the online banking you cant see what they are - its very odd!

Crusher, You're a mind reader!! This is exactly what I'm trying to do. In all honesty, I dont care if they dont provide me with a detailed breakdown so I can batter them for the lot (and compound contractual interest) BUT I think it is important (in the courts eyes) and in your claim to show that you have written evidence asking for the information and they have refused to give it to you. I cant see how they can introduce it into court without the judge going mental when I show a bundle of papers saying - "but I've been asking for this info for months and they wouldnt give it to me." But if you dont ask, I reckon they'd have a good defence to produce the information and if they won on that little technicality you'd be in a whole heap of trouble if the case was big enough to award costs (and most of the business claims are quite huge!)

Ian, You've found yet another business account which is not settled or 'total charges' proven to be unlawful charges. Just because everyone else jumps off a cliff doesnt mean I'm going to do the same. I cannot find one case of a HSBC Business Account 'total charges' claim succesfully won (or succesfully defended) on this site. Because the figures tend to be so high on business account claims I'm just a little worried that HSBC are playing "rope a dope" .. get one of us business customers into court on a big claim which means it will go to a higher court. We lose because we dont know what we're claiming for and they reclaim all their costs and bankrput us!! I have waited 6 years for this money. I dont mind waiting another couple of months to get the evidence which is vital for success. Until I see somebody post up - HSBC business acount 'total charges' WON I will play a very cautious long game and ask for information which is my legal right under sar and post up any information I get. You just need to read this thread from page 1 to see how many conflicting views we have.

Thats a very good question Ian. This is what I'm trying to do right now. Get an exact and detailed breakdown of these 'total charges' but they seem very reluctant to divulge the info. Yes, there are several threads where people are trying to reclaim 'total charges' on business accounts. Personally, I cant see them winning unless its on a technicality such as the bank would rather pay up than disclose the true costs of the unlawful charges which would mean they pay up for 'fees for services' as well, because of the way they lumped all the charges into one under 'total charges'. I think us business customers need to tread very carefully over 'total charges' because I think there will be legitimate fees for services in there. You must remember, business banking was never free (unlike your personal account) so you will have been charged legitmate fees every time you wrote a cheque, made a deposit, bank transfers, etc, etc I think a lot of people are losing sight that their business accounts are quite different from their personal accounts.