"Total Charges" are we sure they are unlawful?

[Ian Appleby]

I found this thread which is a claim that involves this subject.http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/52616-hsbc-business-claimants-please.html

[the_final_straw]

Ian,

 

You've found yet another business account which is not settled or 'total charges' proven to be unlawful charges.

 

Just because everyone else jumps off a cliff doesnt mean I'm going to do the same. I cannot find one case of a HSBC Business Account 'total charges' claim succesfully won (or succesfully defended) on this site.

 

Because the figures tend to be so high on business account claims I'm just a little worried that HSBC are playing "rope a dope" .. get one of us business customers into court on a big claim which means it will go to a higher court. We lose because we dont know what we're claiming for and they reclaim all their costs and bankrput us!!

 

I have waited 6 years for this money. I dont mind waiting another couple of months to get the evidence which is vital for success.

 

Until I see somebody post up - HSBC business acount 'total charges' WON I will play a very cautious long game and ask for information which is my legal right under sar and post up any information I get.

 

You just need to read this thread from page 1 to see how many conflicting views we have.

[HSBCrusher]

I can see your point TFS.

 

If you are in no hurry, I can't see any reason why pushing the data request would harm you, and I have had personal experience of how difficult it is to get information out of hsbc they don't want you to have.

 

It might come to a point though where you have to proceed... If they will not tell you which bits are which, and you have written proof they are not telling you and not going to tell you what charge is what in a clear manner you may have an argument that you have to claim the whole lot because your bank is deliberately witholding this information from you.

 

If there are bits that are not reclaimable then it will be up to them to prove it, and then the question will come up "why didnt you supply this information before?"

[the_final_straw]

Crusher,

 

You're a mind reader!!

 

This is exactly what I'm trying to do.

 

In all honesty, I dont care if they dont provide me with a detailed breakdown so I can batter them for the lot (and compound contractual interest)

 

BUT I think it is important (in the courts eyes) and in your claim to show that you have written evidence asking for the information and they have refused to give it to you. I cant see how they can introduce it into court without the judge going mental when I show a bundle of papers saying - "but I've been asking for this info for months and they wouldnt give it to me."

 

But if you dont ask, I reckon they'd have a good defence to produce the information and if they won on that little technicality you'd be in a whole heap of trouble if the case was big enough to award costs (and most of the business claims are quite huge!)

[Ian Appleby]

Tfs,

I am also going to request a breakdown of the total charges with the sar letter.I find it strange whilst working out my charges online,that you can click on "charge" and it gives you the breakdown.However with "total charges" you get no info.I am going to sit tight and wait to hear of a case won aswell,i just hope i dont see a case lost.If i hear anything in the meanwhile,i will let you know.So i take it with a personal account you just include the "total charge" with no breakdown?.

Ian

[the_final_straw]

Yep,

 

Personal banking is brilliantly straight forward.

 

'Total charges' are included on your claim. dont forget to look at charging compound contractual interest!!

 

I submitted a personal account claim for around £1,400.00 and with the compound interest they now owe me around £3,450.00 :)

 

 

Ian, you're in the same boat as me and we're both coming to very similair conclusions - they dont want us to see a detailed breakdown of 'total charges' on the business accounts for some reason...this leads me to suspect there is something fishy about them. I expect to be a constant annoyance to them until they break it down exactly as they do with their other charges. As you say, even in the online banking you cant see what they are - its very odd!

[HSBCrusher]

hit 'em hard!

 

I am going to get the total charges bit at the top in mav's post edited to avoid this confusion in future!

[Ian Appleby]

I bet HSBC wish it was santa turning up there every day with a big sack and not the postman.They will have to get a HSBC JCB to move all the post lol.I havent read anything about this compound contractual interest and know nothing about it.Do you know if i can claim back the interest on my personal account aswell,because it has a DR next to it,and its coming to about £3.50 a month.

[the_final_straw]

Yep, the interest is reclaimable. If you use the 'search' at the top of the page and type compound interest that will bring you up quite a few threads and what to do and how to set it all out.

 

You'll need a spreadsheet, but theres quite a few knocking around in Vamps Chambers and Mindzai has a good one too (my personal favourite!)

[the_final_straw]

++++ UPDATE+++

 

Just listened to my answerphone messages.

 

Had a missed call this morning and it was jonny at HSBC

 

Hello its jonny at HSBC, just to let you know that your Data Protection Act request isnt covered on your business accounts and you wont be able to get that information. If you'd like to call me back on 020..........

 

What the hell is going on???

 

Now all of a sudden I cant ask for information under S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) on my business account!!!

Does anyone get the feeling I'm getting the almighty brush off?

 

Why the hell are they being so secretive about these 'total charges'

 

 

If anyone knows how to get an answerphone message from my mobile to upload I'll post this little gem up

 

 

EDIT ----

 

and why the hell is he ringing my phone! did I not spell it out very clearly in my return email last night that "all commuincation should be via letter from now on" - see page 2 for my email last night.

[Ian Appleby]

TFS,

If you have email on your mobile,you should be able to save it and email it to yourself.Or maybe get it on your pc via bluetooth or infra red.

[Ian Appleby]

Hi TFS

I was pointed in the direction of this spreadsheet for breaking down these total charges.Just wanted to see what you think,apparently it works out the od interest.Is this what we need.Can i claim this compound interest on my persy account or do you have to be in some certain situation.Cheers

Ian

[adyb]

Hi,

 

When I receive my statements there is always a seperate charges breakdown that gives you notice of the charges that will be deducted from the account and when. These charges are usually listed on statements as "total charges", but will not appear on your statements until the next one is generated. (if you have monthly statements).

 

Hope this helps,

 

Adyb

[the_final_straw]

Interesting.

 

there are some there that are definitley returnable.

 

can you not ring up and get them to tell you what each charge is now that you have them itemised?

 

what the hell is act comm app?

 

********************************************************

NOTE - This whole thread concerns **HSBC BUSINESS ACCOUNTS ONLY**

Do Not Use any of this info regarding your personal acount They are completely different.

 

********************************************************

 

Heres the email I got back after I fired off my letter asking for a further breakdown:

 

Dear Mr Straw,

 

I would suggest that you ignore the first three characters of the descriptions as these are used internally to recognise the type of charge

being levied.

 

With this in mind -

 

Act Comm App - this is your Money Transmission charge - in your case

this is a percentage based on your turnover as indicated to you in my earlier message

Returns Out - where a cheque you have written has been returned by us because of lack of (cleared) funds Returns In - where a cheque you have paid in has been returned by another bank

Stopped Cheque - where you have asked us to halt payment on a cheque

Inter Branch - a transfer of monies made between accounts held at

different branches

Recall S/O & D/D - where we have had to recall (call back payment) on a Standing Order or Direct Debit due to lack of (cleared) funds in your

account

Stmnt Freq - a charge made where you have asked for additional

statements over and above the regular statement you would ordinarily receive

Ren Fee %-Low Band - the charge made for renewing your overdraft

facility - Lower Band refers to facilities below £30k and is a fairly recent

introduction

Renewal Fees - the historic renewal fee charge before the split

referred to above

Temp. Limit Fee - the fee charged for agreeing a temporary extension

(uplift) to your overdraft

Daily Excess Fee - our daily charge for monitoring your account where

you are in excess of an overdraft facility limit or overdrawn without prior

agreement.

 

The spreadsheet is set out on a calendar monthly basis. You need to

x-check the charges with the Prenotification Advices you received

detailing these charges.

 

To get to the Act Comm App charge you will need to add up your debit

turnover for the period in question.

 

Your DPA subject access enquiry will be being processed however I trust you are aware that the DPA is not intended to cover Limited Companies, being largely a consumer related protective measure, so the information you will receive may to meet expectations.

 

I hope the above helps in your understanding of your charges.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

So, my next questions is: which bits are unlawful? Anyone?

 

If nothing else, I hope this is throwing some much needed light on the 'Total Charges' mystery for other HSBC business customers.

[barracad]

So, my next questions is: which bits are unlawful? Anyone?

 

Definitely the ones I've highlighted in red. Not entirely sure what exactly the blue ones mean and to whether or not it is a service.

 

Act Comm App - this is your Money Transmission charge - in your case

this is a percentage based on your turnover as indicated to you in my earlier message

Returns Out - where a cheque you have written has been returned by us because of lack of (cleared) funds Returns In - where a cheque you have paid in has been returned by another bank

Stopped Cheque - where you have asked us to halt payment on a cheque

Inter Branch - a transfer of monies made between accounts held at

different branches

Recall S/O & D/D - where we have had to recall (call back payment) on a Standing Order or Direct Debit due to lack of (cleared) funds in your

account

Stmnt Freq - a charge made where you have asked for additional

statements over and above the regular statement you would ordinarily receive

Ren Fee %-Low Band - the charge made for renewing your overdraft

facility - Lower Band refers to facilities below £30k and is a fairly recent

introduction

Renewal Fees - the historic renewal fee charge before the split

referred to above

Temp. Limit Fee - the fee charged for agreeing a temporary extension

(uplift) to your overdraft

Daily Excess Fee - our daily charge for monitoring your account where

you are in excess of an overdraft facility limit or overdrawn without prior

agreement.

[the_final_straw]

Hi barracad,

 

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

The blue sections - Renewal Fee: I think this is the charge for my £5,000 agreed overdraft limit.

 

Now comes the fun bit - trying to put all of the red sections into date order..no way are they getting away from me without coughing up 25.08% compound interest

[barracad]

If they're on a spreadsheet you can sort by date using Excel.

[the_final_straw]

Just had a look at the "confusing" spreadsheet he sent me and noticed its over several pages. I thought he'd just sent me one page....D'oh

 

It should be a doddle to sort this out. Looks my claim isnt going to break any records though