The European Union.....In or Out?

[tobyjugg2]

If independent economists start to issue warnings, we would be mad to ignore.

 

As long as they were informed warnings, Now that would be notable. Still waiting.

[tobyjugg2]

and German figures released report that only 8% of migrants that have been there a year are in employment (most with state controlled/infuenced industries)

 

Source France24 news.

 

 

On another related note, proposals being presented which will 'allow shengen open borders to be reintroduced by the end of the year'

[Conniff]

To reinforce what we already know that freedom of speech no longer exists,

 

BCC boss suspended over EU referendum comments

 

John Longworth told the business group's annual conference on Thursday that the UK's long-term prospects could be "brighter" outside the EU.

 

He later said he thought Britain would be "better off" after leaving.

[tobyjugg2]

To reinforce what we already know that freedom of speech no longer exists,

 

BCC boss suspended over EU referendum comments

 

John Longworth told the business group's annual conference on Thursday that the UK's long-term prospects could be "brighter" outside the EU.

 

He later said he thought Britain would be "better off" after leaving.

 

ooops - misread again

 

Must get my observation back in gear.

 

"In his speech, Mr Longworth had described the referendum as a choice between the "devil and the deep blue sea". One option was staying in an "essentially unreformed EU", with the other being the uncertainty of leaving, he told the conference."

[tobyjugg2]

and the Tory infighting brings out some figures,

Rather than the 250,000 or even 330,000 net immigrants claimed,

 

The number of new national insurance numbers issued to immigrants (to allow them to work and gain benefits) last year was actually well over 600,000.

 

and that 600,000 new NI numbers is a real figure, not some fuddled statistics.

[Conniff]

I think we are being deliberately lied to.

[fletch70]

and the Tory infighting brings out some figures,

Rather than the 250,000 or even 330,000 net immigrants claimed,

 

The number of new national insurance numbers issued to immigrants (to allow them to work and gain benefits) last year was actually well over 600,000.

 

and that 600,000 new NI numbers is a real figure, not some fuddled statistics.

You are not comparing like with like. Net migration is exactly that: ins - outs

Also we do not know who these migrant figures include.

[tobyjugg2]

You are not comparing like with like. Net migration is exactly that: ins - outs

Also we do not know who these migrant figures include.

 

You are correct, but what is included as migration in and out is open to interpretation (and are reported as estimates).

New NI numbers is the actual number of new migrant slots in the employment.benefits system. I cant yet find any figures for NI numbers removed.

[Guest]

....when the scaremongerers start spouting the risks of leaving, I tend to sway towards the out campaign. ..

it was interesting that after the PM's meet with the French, they (the french) then quickly mentioned the issue of migrants at calais being allowed to britain shld we leave....

am i being too cynical, or was that quite calculated given the sensitive migrant issue?

[tobyjugg2]

it was interesting that after the PM's meet with the French, they then quickly mentioned the issue of migrants at calais being allowed to britain shld we leave....

am i being cynical, or was that quite calculated given the sensitive migrant issue?

 

Politicians politicking

 

Some expansion on the NI stats which is clearer than most:

http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2016/03/02/immigration-statistics-whats-behind-the-numbers-row/

 

 

"Jonathan Portes, principal research fellow at the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, filed a freedom of information request last year in a bid to extract Whitehall figures on how many NI numbers issued to EU migrants are “active” – showing recent tax or benefits payments. This data could potentially prove that far more NI numbers are being issued than actually used, which would confirm that eurosceptics’ fears about the scale of EU migration are overblown.

 

The government does hold this data, but Mr Portes’ request for it to be published was refused by HMRC late last year on the grounds that it would be “unhelpful” to Mr Cameron’s renegotiation."

[Guest]

Politicians politicking

 

"

indeed. but may backfire; as silverfox says, such political 'threats' may sway more to the out

[buckthorn]

France has said if the UK decides to leave the EU it may close down border controls in Calais and Dunkirk,

so that the economic migrants would come straight to the UK, and we would have to sort them out.

 

These are the same people who the stay campaign call our friends, this sounds like blackmail to me, why

would I want friends like that?

 

I think the French like having these people in these ports, as they can use them as bargaining tools.

 

If they really wanted to get rid of them they could get them out of the country within days, just put them

on trains and send them to Germany, they seem to want them.

[tobyjugg2]

France has said if the UK decides to leave the EU it may close down border controls in Calais and Dunkirk,

so that the economic migrants would come straight to the UK, and we would have to sort them out.

 

I have a slightly different perspective.

France has let these illegal migrants in - they are Frances problem.

If we let them in, they become our problem.

 

Calais shuts down and they let them come to the UK immigration - we simply ship them straight back just like Canadians, Australians and Americans do to undesirables and those without the correct documents.

[buckthorn]

I agree with you tj, but if France just shipped them out/put them on trains,

which they could do within days we would not have a problem at these ports in the first place..

[Guest]

 

Calais shuts down and they let them come to the UK immigration - we simply ship them straight back just like Canadians, Australians and Americans do to undesirables and those without the correct documents.

thats what i refer to. france (no doubt prompted by Cam) has come out with that 'threat' trying to win the in vote. yet it is empty if as you say we can just send them back. they were trying to 'play' on the migrant issue. but it hasnt worked.

[tobyjugg2]

I agree with you tj, but if France just shipped them out/put them on trains,

which they could do within days we would not have a problem at these ports in the first place..

 

Its got to happen - ship them back to refugee camps on the borders of their own countries and address the issues at source. Few will stay in the camps anyway as they aren't genuine refugees.

 

While they think they wont be shipped back, and the EU and UK are easy targets, they will keep coming,

and everything else aside - GENUINE refugees will lose out because of it, and the source issues will continue as there wont be enough political will and pressure to address them - well until its too late.

 

If the EU wants shengen to survive, it needs to properly police its outside borders.

Whats happening now is nothing to what will happen with climate change migration over the coming decades.

[buckthorn]

All these scaremongers, are interested in is looking after

themselves and sod the rest of us.

[i]Who wants us to stay in:- those who have something to gain

from our membership as they have been Commissioners in the

EU, and will get big pensions which they will lose if we leave.

[/i]

Mandelson a £34,000 annual pension.

Ashton, if she had been employed by a business she would have been sacked, as she was rubbish.

Kinnock, well what can I say about him not much!!!

Patten, WHO!

Lord Hill, just been appointed by Cameron.

And then you have Blair, he wanted to be EU president, do you think that that is what Cameron wants to be???

[tobyjugg2]

hate rhetoric deleted

 

What a horrendous post.

The migrants may be illegal and a problem, and France and Germany may well have the infrastructure to move millions via rail or road,

but the sort of hate rhetoric you post there has no place in a modern society or reasoned debate.

[buckthorn]

The truth hurts, would you trust the French ?

[tobyjugg2]

The truth hurts, would you trust the French?

 

Yes, far more than most - including most of Camerons senior Tories

[buckthorn]

no wonder we have got problems.

[tobyjugg2]

no wonder we have got problems.

 

Yes, Cameron and his Tories are a real problem.

Sadly labour under Corbyn wouldn't be any better - just in different ways.

[buckthorn]

What a horrendous post.

The migrants may be illegal and a problem, and France and Germany may well have the infrastructure to move millions via rail or road,

but the sort of hate rhetoric you post there has no place in a modern society or reasoned debate.

 

History goes down the pan.

[tobyjugg2]

History goes down the pan.

 

That happened long ago, it needs no further abuse from you.

 

 

and those who think Britain will join our buddy the USA are also completely unaware of true history.

 

America is not our ally except when we work in their interests

America is not our friend

 

America demanded high cost at the start of world war 2

 

America betrayed Churchill at the end of world war 2 in the assault on Berlin which defined the layout of Europe for decades

 

America betrayed Britain, France and Israel in the Suez crisis

 

They betray and use us to this day throughout the world

 

So those who think leaving the EU so we can make our way with the US are sadly mistaken.

[unclebulgaria67]

Is it possible to have a fair debate given most newpapers appear to be anti the EU ?

 

Yes people don't believe everything they read and it does not mean they will vote the way newspapers tell them. But quite often the newspapers have a huge influence on the political debate. Broadcast media do cover news stories covered in print media and it then becomes a talking point.