The European Union.....In or Out?

[tobyjugg2]

We must have made some good points here orbiter

the Edit is starting in earnest trying to smother them.

 

 

How about editing conniffs complete spam trolling

 

at least buckthorn puts some effort into his posts and raises issues for consideration - not just flames

[SabreSheep]

A reminder for all users to re-read the site rules for copying and pasting material from other sites.

 

Limit to 20% of the material and leave the link please in order to avoid copyright issues

[tobyjugg2]

To TJ:

 

So you are prepared to listen to Mark Carney as Governor of the Bank of England

but not Goldman Sachs, well-read below he was part of Goldman Sachs for 13 years,

if you would not have been prepared to listen to him then why would you wish to

listen to him now.??????

 

After a thirteen-year career with Goldman Sachs in its London, Tokyo, New York and Toronto

offices, Mark Carney was appointed Deputy Governor of the Bank of Canada in August 2003.

In November 2004, he left the Bank of Canada to become Senior Associate Deputy Minister of

Finance. He held this position until his appointment as Governor of the Bank of Canada on

1 February 2008. Mark Carney served as Governor of the Bank of Canada and Chairman of its

Board of Directors until 1 June 2013

 

Prepared to listen - Yes

 

I dont doubt his ability, just what his aims are, which could (should) be very different as BoE governor compared to as a GS employee.

[buckthorn]

We are gradually “surrendering our sovereignty to the EU”.

Cabinet papers pre-1970 show the Heath government to have had a

full knowledge of the EEC being a long-term plan for a unitary

European State with its own currency; but the facts were suppressed

by this and succeeding governments with the deliberate intention of

keeping the nation in the dark.

 

Content appears to be taken from this website

Post shortened to 20% and link added as per site rules

 

http://www.bpp.org.uk/101reasons.html

 

-SS

 

For your information Sabersheep yes that information does come from 101 reasons for leaving the EU,

it was sent to members of UKIP prior to http://www.bpp.org.uk/101reasons.html who most likely got its information from the leaflet

but you are not correct in were it originated from, it was sent out by UKIP from Brussels

and it was put together by a group of Anglican clergy and laity.

I checked with UKIP and it is not copyright

Edited May 22, 2016 by Andyorch
Site Team name corrected

[buckthorn]

You keep asking for links:-

Re-thread 492

 

WELL WELL WELL

EU ARMY MOVES STEP CLOSER: MEP

says Brussels defence force 'only way'

to protect Europe

 

 

EU Army tanks pictured in Britain European Union battle group exercises

Daily Mail‎ - 17 hours ago

Invasion of the EU army! ... the UK will never be a part of an EU army,' said a spokesman.

EU emblazoned army vehicles taking part in war games on Salisbury Plain | World | News

Daily Express‎ - 14 hours ago

More news for EU army in the UK

 

More news for EU army in the UK

________________________________________

Military of the European Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_European_Union

1. Cached

2. Similar

The military of the European Union comprises the various cooperative structures that have ..... The European Corps, often shortened as Eurocorps, is an army corps of .... It is distinct from the similarly named UK Joint Expeditionary Force.

UK, Central Europe frown at Juncker's European army – EurActiv.com

http://www.euractiv.com/section/.../uk-central-europe-frown-at-juncker-s-european-army/

1. Cached

A spokesman for the Cameron government told EurActiv UK: “Our position is crystal clear that defence is a national, not an EU responsibility and that there is no ...

It is an EU army that could bring about war - The Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/09/it-is-an-eu-army-that-could-bring-about-war/

1. Cached

9 May 2016 - An EU Army could spell the end of the British Army as we know it Credit: ... Those who argue that the UK could veto an EU army, or that the UK ...

EU army fears as Defence Secretary calls for further integration with ...

http://www.express.co.uk/.../uk/.../EU-army-fears-Defence-Secretary-Michael-Fallon-furthe...

1. Cached

22 Apr 2016 - FEARS British armed forces could be dragged into an EU army have escalated after Michael Fallon said UK troops should further integrate with ...

MEP says Brussels army is 'only way' to protect Europe | Politics ...

http://www.express.co.uk/.../EU-army-closer-Brexit-Brussels-control-forces-MEP-protect-E...

1. Cached

9 May 2016 - FEARS that Britain will be forced to join an EU army if the country votes ... July, after the UK referendum next month but was leaked in advance.

EU referendum: Brussels plots military merger if UK stays in which ...

http://www.express.co.uk/.../uk/.../EU-referendum-Brussels-plot-military-merger-UK-stay-i...

1. Cached

29 Feb 2016 - End of the British Army? EU plots 'scandalous' military merger if UK votes to stay in. THE EU is to launch a £3 BILLION defence research and ...

[obiter dictum]

This issue of this EU Army that is being peddled all over the internet

 

Do we have any actual source from the EU besides personal opinions and statements that state an EU Army is being formed?? That is any policy decision, official debates in the EU Parliament on the matter.

 

The obvious question has to be in contravention of our NATO commitments if true

 

The question has to be is why we need an EU Army in the first place

 

Links from the British media is hardly credible as a reference source

Edited May 22, 2016 by obiter dictum

[buckthorn]

This issue of this EU Army that is being peddled all over the internet

 

Do we have any actual source from the EU besides personal opinions and statements that state an EU Army is being formed?? That is any policy decision, official debates in the EU Parliament on the matter.

 

The obvious question has to be in contravention of our NATO commitments if true

 

The question has to be is why we need an EU Army in the first place

 

Links from the British media is hardly credible as a reference source

 

I missed out the link to the daily Mail statement, but if you check there is even a photo of them exercising on Salisbury Plain.

I don't believe half the stuff printed in the papers/media but owing to the fact that this is our only source of information, we have to

separate the wheat from the chaff. (which was the reason I gave multiple links) (try:-EU Army in the UK)

[obiter dictum]

The TFEU does not mention a European army but Article 42 allows for the the common security and defence policy. These have exercises all over europe including Salisbury plain. If memory serves me right it is is a force of 1000.

 

The simple fact is that Defence spending and procurement with all 28 member states has been in decline since the end of the cold War. The United Nations will be seen as the European peace keeping force along with NATO such as ISAF

 

There is simply no need or expense for any European Army in reality, i am sure individual member states will oppose any such notion anyway with their Veto if it ever came to be negotiated for real

Edited May 22, 2016 by obiter dictum

[buckthorn]

The TFEU does not mention a European army but Article 42 allows for the the common security and defence policy. These have exercises all over europe including Salisbury plain. If memory serves me right it is is a force of 1000.

 

The simple fact is that Defence spending and procurement with all 28 member states has been in decline since the end of the cold War. The United Nations will be seen as the European peace keeping force along with NATO such as ISAF

 

There is simply no need or expense for any European Army in reality, i am sure individual member states will oppose any such notion anyway with their Veto if it ever came to be negotiated for real

 

 

 

All I can tell you is that the troops are from Sweden,

Latvia, Finland, Lithuania and Ireland, the logos on their

Military vehicles is the EU flag. They have been joined by

troops of the 2nd Battalion the Yorkshire regiment, and

4th Infantry Brigade.

 

They are the European Union Battle Group,

consisting of three 1,500 rapid reaction forces, who are

directed by the EU’s council of Ministers.

 

The German Government (according to the report) is

enthusiastic about a European Army but this will not be

set out until after the referendum.

 

Once again keep everything under wraps until we can do

nothing about it, as I have said in other threads the

population of this country is being kept in the dark/lied to.

 

I hope you are correct in what you say and I really hope I am wrong.

[tobyjugg2]

buckthorn

 

You might be surprised to hear that I have no doubts whatsoever that a good portion of the information about a cover-up and misleading the public as to what the EU was and is intended to be has a solid basis in fact.

 

I'm no financial wizard, but i can see that the euro is unworkable without integrated countries working to the same financial drivers, and with immense 'soft' political power supporting it - just like any currency.

 

I can see this, so can many others, yet ALL the politicians just say what is in their own interests.

So what we really need is honest (well as honest as possible) politicians working in our nations best interests in the EU.

 

I accept this as part of my reasoning, as nothing can be done to change what has occurred, and any real change will not occur this year let alone in time for the referendum thats for sure.

 

But what can be taken from it is that those so called elected UK top politicians are lying, deceiving cheating self interested parties in whom we would be foolish to rely, let alone give unfettered sovereignty.

 

Much of the rhetoric against the EU seems to me to be 'we hate the Germans they are still NAZIs trying to win the war and rule the world...

NO they aren't - well they possibly could be - but if they are its mainly in the best possible way

 

Why are the Germans successful?

Because they have a plan and they work together - politicians, unions and captains of industry to promote that plan.

 

What is that plan?

Simply - A safe prosperous world to live in

 

Are they perfect

Not even close. But clearly far better at civilisation than we are.

 

Why them not us?

Because our politicians are too busy promoting self interest at the expense of everyone and everything else rather than taking their slice but ensuring others benefit too - so everyone is committed to the endeavour.

 

People, unions and even most of the captains of industry are tools to use and obstacles to overcome, not partners in endeavors.

 

So perhaps you can now begin to see why sovereignty and greater power for these self-serving british politicians is one of the very last thing on my things to-do list.

 

Your posts seem to show you already know this, just that you find a way out hard to see

Me too.

[obiter dictum]

There is nothing in the TFEU that mentions an EU Army and the common security and defence policy only has 1000 personnel.

 

That force is designed to go in if a member state suffers a disaster as a humanitarian force. Floods, fire, Nuclear power plant etc. It has never been designed to be an offensive force.

[Conniff]

83. Having ratified the Treaty of Lisbon, and despite the reassurances given by Chancellor of the Exchequer, George Osborne, that we will never give up the pound, thanks to a measure passed overwhelmingly by our MPs in March 2011, we are in grave danger of losing the pound and adopting the Euro. This was because the Treaty of Lisbon says that the currency of the EU shall be the Euro; so using the Euro is now a condition of EU membership. It is unlikely we will be able to remain outside the Euro for much longer if we vote to remain on June 23rd.

 

I can find no get out clauses for the UK and none was negotiated by Cameron on his trip around the member states.

[obiter dictum]

Cameron negotiated the opt out agreement. Even though it is not Treaty law it will be regarded as law in any future judicial decisions.

 

Think of it as our own ACAS code of practice that sets minimum standards on employers

 

We also have the European Union Act 2011

[Conniff]

Cameron negotiated the opt out agreement. Even though it is not Treaty law it will be regarded as law in any future judicial decisions.

 

Think of it as our own ACAS code of practice that sets minimum standards on employers

 

We also have the European Union Act

 

Thanks for that.

 

Have now found this:

 

"The euro area includes those EU Member States that have adopted the single currency. But the euro area is not static – under the Treaty, all EU Member States have to join the euro area once the necessary conditions are fulfilled, except Denmark and the United Kingdom which have negotiated an 'opt-out' clause that allows them to remain outside the euro area"

 

So I think that clarifies it nicely.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Conniff

[Guest]

I am confused by this whole undemocratic business. The EU Commission proposes legislation to the EU Parliament after being debated in committees and sub committes. It is then the Elected MEPs who pass that proposed legislation into law. The same as our own UK Parliament and the White paper

 

I have never seen any objective argument contray to that procedure

good point.

it was, i think, that part(s) of its process werent so open/public. but that has changed i believe, or has it?

 

recent select comm report re exit. 'awaiting govt response and debate'

http://www.parliament.uk/eu-exit-process/

 

and, re journal items mentioned, heres a recent article from the dm

'EU chiefs have hatched a secret plot to work with African dictators to stop migrants reaching Europe, a leaked report has revealed....'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3596394/Secret-EU-plan-pay-African-dictators-stop-migrants-reaching-Europe-no-circumstances-public-know-leaked-report-reveals.html

[obiter dictum]

The European Union totally changed in 2009 with the TFEU as a legislative body

[Guest]

TFEU

Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union

[buckthorn]

Those who wish to stay in the EU say:-

Jobs depend upon our industries investing more and being

able to sell in the world. If we come out, our industry would

be based on the smallest home market of any major exporting

country in the world, instead of on the EU market of 508 million

people.

 

It is very doubtful if we could then negotiate a free trade

agreement with the EU. Even if we could it would have damaging

limitations and we would have to accept many EU rules without

having the say we now have in their making.

 

So we could lose free access not only to the EU market itself but

to other countries with which the EU has trade agreements.

The immediate effect on trade, on industrial confidence, on investment

prospects, and hence on jobs, could well be disastrous.

[obiter dictum]

The French and German Finance Ministers as a matter of pulic record have already stated that on exit Britain will have no Free Trade Agreement in accessing the single market

 

Just after the Referendum was announced sent Stirling tumbling against the Dollar. It still has not recovered suffering a current 7 year low. It dropped below $1.40 for the first time since the crash

[buckthorn]

You said:-

Much of the rhetoric against the EU seems to me to be 'we hate the Germans they are still NAZIs trying to win the war and rule the world...

NO they aren't - well they possibly could be - but if they are its mainly in the best possible way

 

 

I have got no problem with the Germans (in fact I worked for a

German electronics company for 10 years) as far as I am concerned

WWll was a long time ago.

 

But what I would say is that Germany had more help financially and

physically, than any other country involved in the war, in fact the UK

was nearly bankrupt.

 

We did not finish paying the US for lease lend until 2006, while

Germany had everything given to it to assist in its rebuilding program.

So I can understand some of the resentment.

 

The Anglo-American Loan Agreement[1] was a post-World War II loan

made to the United Kingdom by the United States on 15 July 1946, and

paid off in 2006.[2] The loan was negotiated by John Maynard Keynes.

The loan was for $3.75 billion (US$57 billion in 2015) at a low 2% interest

rate; Canada loaned an additional US$1.19 billion.

Edited May 22, 2016 by buckthorn
add

[buckthorn]

The French and German Finance Ministers as a matter of pulic record have already stated that on exit Britain will have no Free Trade Agreement in accessing the single market

 

Just after the Referendum was announced sent Stirling tumbling against the Dollar. It still has not recovered suffering a current 7 year low. It dropped below $1.40 for the first time since the crash

 

 

The Statement (Those who wish to stay in) above is an exact copy

(I have the leaflet in front of me) of the statement made in 1975 from a leaflet

distributed by:-Why you should vote YES by the in campaign.

 

Substitute Community for EU and what you are being told

today is the exact argument word for word used in 1975,

to bamboozle the country to vote to stay in.

I did not believe then and I am afraid I still do not believe it now.

Edited May 22, 2016 by buckthorn
add

[obiter dictum]

The world is a different animal from 1975. It moves forward and evolves, not stuck in the past

[buckthorn]

Yes but the lies don't change!

[san_d]

You keep asking for links:-

Re-thread 492

 

WELL WELL WELL

EU ARMY MOVES STEP CLOSER: MEP

says Brussels defence force 'only way'

to protect Europe

 

 

EU Army tanks pictured in Britain European Union battle group exercises

Daily Mail‎ - 17 hours ago

Invasion of the EU army! ... the UK will never be a part of an EU army,' said a spokesman.

EU emblazoned army vehicles taking part in war games on Salisbury Plain | World | News

Daily Express‎ - 14 hours ago

More news for EU army in the UK

 

More news for EU army in the UK

________________________________________

Military of the European Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_European_Union

1. Cached

2. Similar

The military of the European Union comprises the various cooperative structures that have ..... The European Corps, often shortened as Eurocorps, is an army corps of .... It is distinct from the similarly named UK Joint Expeditionary Force.

UK, Central Europe frown at Juncker's European army – EurActiv.com

http://www.euractiv.com/section/.../uk-central-europe-frown-at-juncker-s-european-army/

1. Cached

A spokesman for the Cameron government told EurActiv UK: “Our position is crystal clear that defence is a national, not an EU responsibility and that there is no ...

It is an EU army that could bring about war - The Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/09/it-is-an-eu-army-that-could-bring-about-war/

1. Cached

9 May 2016 - An EU Army could spell the end of the British Army as we know it Credit: ... Those who argue that the UK could veto an EU army, or that the UK ...

EU army fears as Defence Secretary calls for further integration with ...

http://www.express.co.uk/.../uk/.../EU-army-fears-Defence-Secretary-Michael-Fallon-furthe...

1. Cached

22 Apr 2016 - FEARS British armed forces could be dragged into an EU army have escalated after Michael Fallon said UK troops should further integrate with ...

MEP says Brussels army is 'only way' to protect Europe | Politics ...

http://www.express.co.uk/.../EU-army-closer-Brexit-Brussels-control-forces-MEP-protect-E...

1. Cached

9 May 2016 - FEARS that Britain will be forced to join an EU army if the country votes ... July, after the UK referendum next month but was leaked in advance.

EU referendum: Brussels plots military merger if UK stays in which ...

http://www.express.co.uk/.../uk/.../EU-referendum-Brussels-plot-military-merger-UK-stay-i...

1. Cached

29 Feb 2016 - End of the British Army? EU plots 'scandalous' military merger if UK votes to stay in. THE EU is to launch a £3 BILLION defence research and ...

 

The Beano is more credible than the Express.

[tobyjugg2]

good point.

it was, i think, that part(s) of its process werent so open/public. but that has changed i believe, or has it?

 

Depends whether the local/national government and news report it

Here they dont, with other members they do.

 

How much is reported should be laid firmly at the feet of the national government.

 

... some things are of course kept 'secret', just as is the case with national governments.

but of course, things like 'LAWS' cant be kept secret - else no one would even know to 'obey' them or not.