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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
    • Thanks for all the suggestions so far I will amend original WS and send again for review.  While looking at my post at very beginning when I submitted photos of signs around the car park I noticed that it says 5 hours maximum stay while the signage sent by solicitor shows 4 hours maximum stay but mine is related to electric bay abuse not sure if this can be of any use in WS.
    • Not sure what to make of that or what it means for me, I was just about to head to my kip and it's a bit too late for legalise. When is the "expenditure occured"?  When they start spending money to write to me?  Or is this a bad thing (as "harsh" would imply)? When all is said and done, I do not have two beans to rub together, we rent our home and EVERYTHING of value has been purchased by and is in my wife's name and we are not financially linked in any way.  So at least if I can't escape my fate I can at least know that they will get sweet FA from me anyway   edit:  ah.. Sophia Harrison: Time bar decision tough on claimants WWW.SCOTTISHLEGAL.COM Time bar is a very complex area of law in Scotland relating to the period in which a claim for breach of duty can be pursued. The Scottish government...   This explains it like I am 5.  So, a good thing then because creditors clearly know they have suffered a loss the minute I stop paying them, this is why it is "harsh" (for them, not me)? Am I understanding this correctly?  
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Natwest - Need More Time to Pay a Loan


Ucat
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the bank cannot taken any retaliatory action for reclaiming.

 

Do you mean that they can't freeze my money for reclaiming fees and charges?

If so, why do I need to move my money first?

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because you came here for advise on loan repayments

and wanting to reduce them.

 

 

any bank under the off setting rules

can an will raid other accounts if you cant pay your full monthly amount when due

 

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Ok thanks,

 

From what you say it sounds like I can see what happens with the fee refunds first and then move my money before starting the payment loan proceedings. Since I still have some savings so I won't default on the loan in the next couple of months yet.

 

I somehow feel that it would be beneficial to look like I'm still banking with natwest while claiming fee refunds.

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So I now have to write to Natwest because they refuse further refunds. Are there any sample letters for getting your fees back? Do I need to quote legislation or can I just write in and say that I think the charges are unreasonable?

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I would be having a look at bcobs

 

 

click the link and read the blue rbs link.

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Ok thank you again for helping dx100uk.

 

So if I understand correctly: with credit card fees I can say that they are violating the Conduct of Business Sourcebook (COBS). Whereas for current account fees it will be The Banking:Conduct of Business Regulations (BCOBS) that they are violating with unfair fees.

 

I think at the first instance I will keep it simple and just ask for a stament of all the fees charged, and all the fees refunded with interest, saying that I believe that the charges are unfair and in violation of the above.

 

Something like this:

"I would like to request a full refund of all the late payment fees and overlimit fees which have not yet been refunded because I think they are excessive and unfair, and thus in violation of the FSA’s Conduct of Business Sourcebook. I also request you to refund the interest charges charged on these credit cards, as if these unfair fees had never been charged in the first place. "

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(Just a side note: Some of the links that appear in the posts in this forum are adverts and some are links for further information - correct?

 

 

I have just been ignoring them so far because I thought all of them were ads..

. and now when you refer to the 'blue RBS link' I'm not sure which one you mean but assume that you meant the "Textbook Reclaim of RBS charges")

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it might pay you to send an sar first

and get all the statements on everything?

 

 

its always a good idea with cards and loans certainly

to do a spreadsheet

then you know what you should expect back?

 

 

bank account can usually be tackled with a simple BCOBS complaint like the one pointed too

 

 

dx

 

 

 

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Hi dx,

 

Thanks for responding. I will ask for an SAR if they don't send the information otherwise.

 

 

In my telephone conversation with them they asked to send a letter to this address so I don't want to delay their procedures.

If no luck, then I will ask for SAR's (but that might cost £10 I think).

 

The spreadsheet is a good idea - will do that.

 

You say: "bank account can usually be tackled with a simple BCOBSlink3.gif complaint like the one pointed too"

- Yes, will do that with my current account.

 

 

But credit cards are different, even when I'm with the same bank - right?

 

 

Judging from the links you referred to.

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yes cc's are - better to get the info.

 

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • 1 month later...

Regarding claiming back bank penalty charges (should I start a separate thread regarding this, by the way?),

I got a letter from Natwest and would like some help with how I should respond... The Natwest letter states:

 

- they are unable to agree to my complaint about charges applied to my account being unfair.

 

- they understand that I feel that the charges go "contrary the aims of the lending code (Section 9)

and Banking Conduct of Business Sourcebook". (their words not mine)

 

- the charges were applied correctly in line with the Terms and Conditions of the account.

 

- the Supreme Court's ruling confirms that the charges applied were considered part of the price by the customer

in exchange for the package of services which make up a current account.

 

- refund is only awarded if there is a bank error and there has been no bank error.

 

- fees that have been levied on the account have been applied inline with the fee structures

that were in place at the time of application to the account.

 

- they subscribe to the Lending Code and are bound by the Code and they have arrangements in place to deal with customers sympathetically

and positively when it is identified that they may be experiencing financial difficulty.

(However, they did not help me at the time despite many meetings with them to request help,

and despite my credit cards being continuously maxed out and despite being sometimes unable to pay my rent on time.

The combined fees on all my accounts at the time were sometimems over 100 pounds per month causing severe financial difficulty.)

 

- Lending Standards Board, and independent body, reviews the bank periodically to see if they adhere to the code.

 

- they also comply with the FSA's Banking Conduct of Business Sourcebook and their compliance with the rules is assessed by the FSA.

 

- refers to the Supreme Court Ruling of 25th Nov 2009 and says that the court decided that the current account customers

receive a package of services and unarranged overdraft charges are part of this price paid by customers in exchange for that package.

 

 

This judgment also confirmed that any fee applied inline with the terms and conditions of the account could not be challenged

and therefore the other charges mentioned could not be processed for fairness under the

Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 (UTCCR).

 

- in their view the judgement of the Supreme Court means that the level of their charges cannot be assessed for fairness under the UTCCR

or challenged under the common law penalty doctrine.

They do not believe that there is any legal basis on which these charges can be validly challenged.

 

- if I feel like I may be suffering financially they recommend to get in touch with Financial Difficulty Team

(but on the phone the lady stated that this team won't discuss refunding the penalty charges.)

 

Thanks for helping

Edited by Ucat
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(Just a side note: Some of the links that appear in the posts in this forum are adverts and some are links for further information - correct?

 

 

I have just been ignoring them so far because I thought all of them were ads..

. and now when you refer to the 'blue RBS link' I'm not sure which one you mean but assume that you meant the "Textbook Reclaim of RBS charges")

 

 

yes

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • 1 month later...

Hi,

 

I spoke to Natwest today about payment holiday and

 

 

they said that it can only be agreed in advance, when first taking out the loan.

 

 

They said that I could speak to the 'Collections Department' and they could give me some payment-free months (not a payment holiday)

but it would mess up my credit rating for seven years to come.

 

Others online have told me that even defaulting on your credit card or refusing to pay it altogether doesn't leave a mark on the credit record for too long.

 

Was the Natwest advisor just trying to scare me?

 

 

How bad would the effect on the credit rating likely to be?

 

 

He said it would be a breach of contract even if a new payment plan was agreed with them.

 

In terms of credit rating, the only thing I'm really worried about is if can't pass credit checks for estate agents, in case I need to move in the next seven years.

 

Oh, and by the way, the second thing:

 

 

Natwest told me that they won't refund penalty charges UNLESS I am in financial trouble now.

 

 

I told her that I am in financial trouble even though I haven't defaulted on any payments recently.

 

 

I got a letter stating that they would offer no refunds.

 

 

Question: Am I likely to win with Ombudsman or was she correct with her decision?

 

Thanks

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omb wont get involved in PENALTY charges reclaiming.

 

 

as for the credit file

 

 

defaults and later payments are there for 6yrs.

 

 

pull my chain later I'm a bit busy.

 

 

but BCOBS is worthy a read.

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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FOS, they very rarely get involved with PENALTY reclaims.

 

 

and even if they do, they always seem to side with the banks.

 

 

sorry for the repeat of BCOBS stuff I was on a small screen.

 

 

have you gotten your money out to another bank account now

to stop them taking things like these PENALTY charges and guard against offset?

 

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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I am trying to claim back - on both my credit cards and current accounts:

1) late payment fees, bounced direct debit and cheque fees, unarranged overdraft fees, etc. and

2) account subscription fees. For the late payment fees etc.

 

 

my argument is that since the bank refuses to explain to me why the charges are so high,

then they are unfair,

and they should refund them in full.

 

 

For the account subscription fees the argument is that I didn't use any of the benefits so I was missold the account.

 

Have you reclaimed any unlawful charges/penalty charges on the loan, or any insurances?

 

As for the natwest charges, just check your statements and see what they were charging you. Things like insurances can potentially be reclaimed. late fees can, etc.

 

I called Natwest and said that I thought all the penalty charges I received for going overdrawn were excessive and caused me financial hardship.

 

Then I did the same thing with my current credit card,

 

I will go for all the other credit cards I held in the past six years and for the fees for a Natwest Gold Account.

Also fees for bounced cheques and direct debits.

 

It's probably worth doing a separate complaint for each:

1) account fees,

2) credit card overdraft and late payment charges, and

3) overdraft charges and bounced direct debits on my current account.

Am I right?

 

Once these are resolved I will move my money to another bank and start a process for 'a payment holiday' on my current loan.

 

Are there good chances of success with all this?

I have been in financial hardship all through this time, and still am.

 

dx100uk: Do you mean the charges mentioned above by penalty charges or something else?

 

I didn't receive answers to my questions in the quotes yet...

 

Thank you.

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I think you need to read around a bit and get upto speed.

 

 

any penalty charges on credit cards can be reclaimed[late/over/letter]

 

 

they can also be reclaimed on bank account, but that's a bit more difficult

not sure about cheque fees and unarranged OD fees mind

 

 

and the 'subscription fees must be a sep claim.

 

 

a penalty fee is any fixed sum charge

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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I have read through the links you gave me and from what you say it sounds like we are on the same page. I have separate claims for credit cards and current accounts. also a separate claim for account subscription fees.

 

My main argument for all the charges/fees is unfairness, except for subscription fees which is that they were missold.

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yep good sounds right

 

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Share on other sites

So the 'Abjudicator' of the Financial Ombudsman just called me regarding my complaint

and said that the Ombudsman can never recommend for the banks to refund fees on credit cards.

 

 

He said that the fees are not unfair since the banks showed them in 2009 what the fees consisted of

and he also said that whether you are in financial difficulty or not doesn't make a difference.

 

 

He also somehow decided that the bank had treated me fairly without being interested in hearing my full story,

and despite the fact that the banks did not contact me to inform me of my options during the last years when I've been in lots of financial difficulty.

 

 

A very strange conversation.

 

 

He also surprisingly was not the Ombudsman although he works in the Financial Ombudsman's office.

And he said taking the case forward to the Ombudsman will not change anything.

I asked him to take the case forward anyway.

 

So if this is the case,

why is there so much information everywhere about reclaiming back fees?

 

 

Was this person on the phone giving me false information

 

 

or has no-one got fee refunds since 2009?

 

 

I'm so confused now.

Edited by Ucat
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fos will never side with you on any charges reclaiming.

 

 

didn't even know you'd gone to them.

 

 

 

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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as post 41

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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The Adjudicator was wrong to say that the banks do not have to repay credit card fees since 2009. It was for Bank charges on current accounts that the Supreme court found in favour of the banks. The OFT had already said that credit card fees were reclaimable !

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Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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