Jump to content


  • Tweets

  • Posts

    • J&P Credit Solutions are specialists on debt recovery. Either way they seem to be swapping between the JandP and IDR whatever their exact definitions are.
    • Primary and secondary teachers are supporting pupils with their own money, buying food and warm clothing. Eight in 10 primary teachers in England spending own money to help pupils | Education | The Guardian WWW.THEGUARDIAN.COM Increasing numbers of children hungry and lack adequate clothing, with two-thirds of secondary teachers also supporting pupils  
    • I googled "prescribed disability" to see where it is defined for the purposes of S.92. I found HMRC's definition, which included deafness. I don't  think anyone is saying deaf people cant drive, though! digging deeper,  Is it that “prescribed disability” (for the purposes of S.88 and S.92) is defined at: The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1999 WWW.LEGISLATION.GOV.UK These Regulations consolidate with amendments the Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1996...   ….. and sleep apnoea / increased daytime sleepiness is NOT included there directly as a condition but only becomes prescribed under “liability to sudden attacks of disabling giddiness or fainting” (but falling asleep isn't fainting!), so it isn’t defined there as a “prescribed disability”  Yet, under S.92(2)(b) RTA 1988 “ any other disability likely to cause the driving of a vehicle by him in pursuance of a licence to be a source of danger to the public" So (IMHO) sleep apnea / daytime sleepiness MIGHT be a prescribed disability, but only if it causes likelihood of "driving being a source of danger to the public" : which is where meeting / not meeting the medical standard of fitness to drive comes into play?  
    • You can counter a Judges's question on why you didn't respond by pointing out that any company that charges you with stopping at a zebra crossing is likely to be of a criminal mentality and so unlikely to cancel the PCN plus you didn't want to give away any knowledge you had at that time that could allow them to counteract your claim if it went to Court. There are many ways in which you can see off their stupid claim-you will see them in other threads  where our members have been caught by Met at other airports as well as Bristol.  Time and again they take motorists to Court for "NO Stopping" apparently completely forgetting that the have lost doing that because no stopping is prohibitory and cannot form a contract. Yet they keep on issuing PCNs because so many people just pay up . Crazy . You can see what chuckleheads they are when you read their Claim form which is pursuing you as the driver or the keeper. they don't seem to understand that on airport land because of the Bye laws, the keeper is never liable.   
    • The video-sharing app told the BBC that a "very limited" number of accounts had been compromised.View the full article
  • Recommended Topics

  • Our picks

    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
      • 1 reply
    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 161 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
        • Like
  • Recommended Topics

Should a CCA be provided under SAR? - discussion


caro
style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 3547 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

I contacted the ICO some time ago to clear this up.

I got through to one of their people.

 

He told me that the request included any personal data, and that this would include any documents which contained such information.

When I asked about the requirements of the CCA he was somewhat bemused, they would not even consider the requirements of another act, the request is made under the DPA and that is all that they are concerned with.

 

Personally I have make many SAR requests and have always recieved a copy of the agrement when available.

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Replies 149
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

An agreement is not considered "personal data".

 

Really, and does this just apply to regulated agreements, what about an agreement to take a ride on a bus, what about an agreement which had not been executed, what about an agreement when one or both of the parties disputed that there was an agreement.

 

Personal data is personal data, I think you will find.

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites

Check out shamrockers Claimants skeleton,para 15 for another reason not to comply with s78

 

file:///C:/Users/Dan/Downloads/aktiv-kapital-skeleton.pdf

 

Posted Today

WON lloyds walked away after second hearing £10,000 2014

 

WON Mbna after 3rd hearing £5,000, 2014

 

WON Barclaycard 1st hearing £2015, 4,500

Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand that the data doesn't have to be provided in a particular format so long as it's understandable. As such the actual agreement may not be provided - though the data held within it could be provided albeit in a different format.

Link to post
Share on other sites

When I made a SAR and one hadn't been provided I ask them if there is one available or is is the case they've only checked relevant filinig systems.

 

They've come back and reluctantly admitted they don't have one at all.

 

I contacted the ICO some time ago to clear this up.

I got through to one of their people.

 

He told me that the request included any personal data, and that this would include any documents which contained such information.

When I asked about the requirements of the CCA he was somewhat bemused, they would not even consider the requirements of another act, the request is made under the DPA and that is all that they are concerned with.

 

Personally I have make many SAR requests and have always recieved a copy of the agrement when available.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know if this is already on here but anyway

 

http://ico.org.uk/for_organisations/data_protection/the_guide/~/media/documents/library/Data_Protection/Detailed_specialist_guides/PERSONAL_DATA_FLOWCHART_V1_WITH_PREFACE001.ashx

 

‘Personal data’ is defined in Article 2 of the Directive by reference to

whether information relates to an identified or identifiable

individual.

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites

What not? Its information specifically relating to an individual that can be identified. If a contract signed by 2 parties isn't personal data, then what is?

This was discussed fully some considerable time ago the scenario is not new.

One of the reasons I remember is that the agreement leaves the creditors hand when it is passed to the data subject at the inception of the account.

 

 

For more information you will need to look through the CAG archives.

Any Letters I Draft are N0T approved by CAG and no personal liability is accepted.

Please Consider making a donation to keep this site running!

Nemo Mortalium Omnibus Horis Sapit: Animo et Fide:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Notably above there are no exclusions for the type of document, this is irrelevant, the criteria is that it contains personal data. the only conflicting matter which may have an effect on production, is the associated inclusion of restricted information, ie information involving another source which the data controller feels should not be reproduced in an unredacted form.

This would not be a factor in an agrement.

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes your right, for example instead if providing direct copies of statements, they provide the data in the statements.

 

But as I've said microfiched data should be supplied, Barclay's tried to argue otherwise and the ICO told they they were wrong. Therefore if you ask for everything on microfiche they should comply. I did this with one bank and they provided me with a microfiche of a statement which contradicted the info in the made up, sorry recon CCA.

 

I understand that the data doesn't have to be provided in a particular format so long as it's understandable. As such the actual agreement may not be provided - though the data held within it could be provided albeit in a different format.
  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Rather a weak argument. Its still personal data and therefore if they've retained the data it should be disclosed.

 

 

This was discussed fully some considerable time ago the scenario is not new.

 

 

 

One of the reasons I remember is that the agreement leaves the creditors hand when it is passed to the data subject at the inception of the account.

 

 

For more information you will need to look through the CAG archives.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Rather a weak argument. Its still personal data and therefore if they've retained the data it should be disclosed.

 

Indeed, and being one of the ones who discussed it I can tell you that the ourtcome was ot what the Brigg would have you believe.

 

The simple fact is that we are talking about different things, the DPA requirement is not concerned about the form of the document, rather what it contains, it can be a bus ticket or a contract, if it contains identifiable personal data it must be disclosed.

  • Haha 1

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites

.... Its still personal data and therefore if they've retained the data it should be disclosed.

 

 

ditto. if an app'n form, or an actual agreement, exists and contains identifiable data (which it wld do ordinarily, as defined, eg name/address), then it is data subject to a dsar according to the ICO guide/flow chart on what is such data (which says for eg that statements wld be subject to dsar cause for eg they have a name/address on it). and so, shld be produced if in a 'relevant filing system' (which it wld be ordinarily).

 

its ironic. a cca request doesn't have to produce an actual copy of an application (which some rely on as the agreement), a recon wld suffice to satisfy such a request. but, a dsar 'should' produce such a copy. as you say caro, sometimes a dsar produces a copy form, which hasnt been forthcoming re a cca request.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Some organisation do as a matter of course supply agreements with the SARs, but many others stick by the " no obligation" statement.

 

 

As there is no specific requirement with in the DPA compelling the supply of the agreement it's not a case of being allowed to withhold them rather the lack of any compulsion to do so.

 

There would be a compulsion if it was classed as personal data.

 

I wonder why some DO provide the agreement if they don't have to.

 

BTW andy I do understand what you mean, but not how it's not personal, but if it appears an application is.

Edited by caro
The Consumer Action Group is a free help site.

Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

Link to post
Share on other sites

There would be a compulsion if it was classed as personal data.

 

I wonder why some DO provide the agreement if they don't have to.

 

BTW andy I do understand what you mean, but not how it's not personal, but if it appears an application is.

 

 

Nowhere in the document posted here does is it stated specifically or even vaguely that a Consumer Credit Agreement is Personal Data.

 

 

I does I think follow that CCA 1974 provides for supply of regulated documents WITHOUT A SIGNATURE clearly places such document outside the realm of personal data.

 

 

I have in the past made CCA request on behalf of others and have always been supplied with the document (s) requested.

Any Letters I Draft are N0T approved by CAG and no personal liability is accepted.

Please Consider making a donation to keep this site running!

Nemo Mortalium Omnibus Horis Sapit: Animo et Fide:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Nowhere in the document posted here does is it stated specifically or even vaguely that a Consumer Credit Agreement is Personal Data.

 

 

...

 

 

doesnt need to state specifically this document or that doc. if a doc has a name/address on it then it is identifiable, and therefore data as defined. the mention of statements is just a given eg in explanation.

Link to post
Share on other sites

doesnt need to state specifically this document or that doc. if a doc has a name/address on it then it is identifiable, and therefore data as defined. the mention of statements is just an eg in explanation.

Read the rest of my post Ford.

Agreements as such are not personal data I can make requests for such documents without having to justify my ID No Signature required for a CCA request???

Any Letters I Draft are N0T approved by CAG and no personal liability is accepted.

Please Consider making a donation to keep this site running!

Nemo Mortalium Omnibus Horis Sapit: Animo et Fide:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Read the rest of my post Ford.

Agreements as such are not personal data I can make requests for such documents without having to justify my ID No Signature required for a CCA request???

 

 

read mine, and the ico guide/flow chart :)

lack of a sig re a cca request doesnt make it not personal data as defined by the ico re a dsar.

a copy statement can come from a cca request (i've had one), but yet the ico regard statements as data!

if just a recon of terms/conditions, then is unlikely to be 'data'.

Link to post
Share on other sites

read mine, and the ico guide/flow chart :)

lack of a sig re a cca request doesnt make it not personal data.

a copy statement can come from a cca request (i've had one), but yet the ico regard statements as data!

It is a requirement to send only a current statement of the "account" not historical data.

This changes nothing imo.

Any Letters I Draft are N0T approved by CAG and no personal liability is accepted.

Please Consider making a donation to keep this site running!

Nemo Mortalium Omnibus Horis Sapit: Animo et Fide:

Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a requirement to send only a current statement of the "account" not historical data.

...

 

yes, thats what was sent (copy final statement signed) in respect of.

Link to post
Share on other sites

There would be a compulsion if it was classed as personal data.

 

I wonder why some DO provide the agreement if they don't have to.

 

BTW andy I do understand what you mean, but not how it's not personal, but if it appears an application is.

 

Yes the mention of whether the document is an agreement or a statement is a read herring. The only thing which is relevant is that the document contains personal data in relation to the data subject, if it does it must be disclosed. An agreement must of necessity contain the information about the DS so therefore...

 

There is o restrictions mentioned anywhere in the act which preclude agreements or indeed any other kind of document, unless sensitive material of course.

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing is also that if a copy is requested under a SAR and none is available, they will not send a set of T and Cs, which may add to the confusion, because of course the T and cs do not contain personal data, this may lead I suppose to the mistaken belief that an sar cannot produce an agreement.

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites

Nowhere in the document posted here does is it stated specifically or even vaguely that a Consumer Credit Agreement is Personal Data.

With respect this argument makes no sense. If a creditor wrights down particulars of a denbtor on a pice of paper and files it, it is personal data and is therefore required for disclosure, however if that piece of paper is an agreement it doesn't ?

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites

Of the 3 related instances I've found cause to complain to the ICO it decided the businesses had not complied with s7 of the dpa when failing to include agreements.

 

However; each were ongoing disputes to which the businesses had made reference to the agreements in prior correspondence so would presumably have been within its control and easily accessible.

 

Logically, the application contains personal data, the agreement which underpins the future credit token etc is not necessarily so unless individually negotiated.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...