Tricked? Into signing "Controlled Goods Agreement"

[DragonFly1967]

This is going to be, I fear, a bit of a long winded post, so apologies for that right from the start.

 

Yesterday (23rd June), my property was visited by an "enforcement agent" (I'm going to say bailiff from now on, as it's quicker to type) from Bristow & Sutor.

 

I wasn't home, but my partner was (the debt (council tax) is in both our names).

 

It is important to note that I am NOT trying to get out of paying the council tax for a second, I know that has to be paid, but I do need advice on this controlled goods agreement.

 

Anyway...

 

The bailiff knocked on the door and my partner answered it. He (the bailiff) then went on to explain why he was there. He told her that he was there to make an arrangement to pay, which was fine, we owe it, so we've got to pay it, I don't have any real problem with that (apart from their fees ) but she was pressured/intimidated into signing it.

 

All of the paperwork for this 'agreement to pay' was filled in by the bailiff, and my partner was told to sign it. Thinking that she was only signing an agreement to a payment plan, she signed it (we've had words ) but in fairness to her, the bailiff was suggesting that he had all sorts of powers to force entry etc etc, she was told that the sheaf of papers that the bailiff was filling in was all to do with the changes in the law in April.

 

As I said, she was more or less intimidated into signing this paperwork on the doorstep. He then left her with copies of the paperwork.

 

An important point to note at this point is that at no time did the bailiff set foot inside the door

 

When I got home, I looked through the paperwork that she'd signed, and it's a "Controlled Goods Agreement" (Walking Possession as was).

 

This 'agreement' states that the bailiff has "taken control of our goods" and unless the payment plan is kept to (which we can't afford to pay, but the bailiff refused to negotiate) they'll be back to seize our goods which they've apparently taken control of.

 

A couple of points I've noted from the 1st part of the paperwork is that it is filled in incorrectly (albeit minor errors).

 

1). The bailiff has spelt my partners name incorrectly.

2). The "Enforcement Stage Fee" doesn't add up. As I understand it, that should be £235 plus 7.5% of any amount of the debt over £1,500. This actually means that the 'enforcement stage fee' is 20.575p higher than it should be. Yes, I know, it's only 20 and a bit pence, but it means that it's not factual.

 

 

But now, the more important things.

 

In the 2nd part of the paperwork, the bailiff claims that he has entered the property (he hasn't) and then issued a "Notice After Entry" and claims to have taken control of our goods.

 

However, on the next sheet, the bailiff has ticked the box marked "I have taken control of the following" and then listed...

 

"As previous inventory"

 

Now, I've lived here 18 years, and unless the bailiff has snuck in disguised as the guy who fixes washing machines, no bailiff has EVER been inside the front door, so by my reckoning there cannot be a "previous inventory" and perhaps it would be more truthful to have written "as previously invented".

 

So, the main point of this post is to ask your advice. Are we under threat of these goons coming back to try and force entry (although that sounds like a silly question now I've typed it).

 

Is this document valid, or can I take it up to the bathroom to use as we see fit would be a better question.

 

My partner is now terrified that they'll come back while I'm at work, and I don't know what to tell her.

 

Help!

[brassnecked]

If there are no goods listed accurately and properly identifying them it looks dodgy to me, Has a bailiff ever listed your goods before? and in any case a prior levy cannot be applied to a new debt.

 

As this is Bristols & Stupor, no muppetry is beyond what they will try.

[DragonFly1967]

If there are no goods listed accurately and properly identifying them it looks dodgy to me, Has a bailiff ever listed your goods before? and in any case a prior levy cannot be applied to a new debt.

 

As this is Bristols & Stupor, no muppetry is beyond what they will try.

 

No, there has never been a bailiff inside my property. In fact, I've only ever been visited by 1 bailiff before, and that was about a previous tenants debt.

[brassnecked]

No, there has never been a bailiff inside my property. In fact, I've only ever been visited by 1 bailiff before, and that was about a previous tenants debt.

The new regs are very clear, a proper inventory with accurate descriptions MUST be completed and signed by both parties, did he even come in or was this all done on the doorstep?

[DragonFly1967]

The new regs are very clear, a proper inventory with accurate descriptions MUST be completed and signed by both parties, did he even come in or was this all done on the doorstep?

 

All done on the doorstep. With 3 dogs behind the door wanting to "play" with the stranger, my partner said he didn't even ask to come in.

[brassnecked]

All done on the doorstep. With 3 dogs behind the door wanting to "play" with the stranger, my partner said he didn't even ask to come in.

 

Ever likely, other Caggers willl be along to advise also soon I think, but could you post up a pdf of a scan of the document as left with your details covered? That would help to target best advice, if there is no proper inventory, it is as worthless as the Global levy of old imho.

[DragonFly1967]

Ever likely, other Caggers willl be along to advise also soon I think, but could you post up a pdf of a scan of the document as left with your details covered? That would help to target best advice, if there is no proper inventory, it is as worthless as the Global levy of old imho.

 

Here are the documents that she was handed.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]51741[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]51739[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]51740[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]51738[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]51742[/ATTACH]

[brassnecked]

Thanks Dragonfly1967, I feel the Control Order is null and void, no description of or list of anything, what is meant by previous inventory?

 

I will pm tomtubby to look in on this one ASAP as non compliant paperwork is being collated to see how EAs are implementing TCGA.

[DragonFly1967]

Thanks for your help brassnecked

[brassnecked]

Thanks for your help brassnecked

 

No problem, further help will be on the way when other Caggers look in no doubt

 

Posting up the docs allows early advice to be more focused on your issue I am not happy with the inventory, and the actions of B & S so I have PMd tomtubby and ploddertom to look in on this we can see if they have pulled any more stunts like this since April 6th:wink:

[i hate bailiffs]

 

There is no right of entry for council tax

No entry by force

No kidnap of the dog

No arrest

 

Please remember bailiffs lie

There only special power is they lie

[lookinforinfo]

In order for the Controlled Agreement to be valid it must comply with the stipulations below. I have entered in red the particularly relevant part for you. As you said-you can take it to your loo and use it there for all the use it is.

 

Did you not receive a letter from the bailiffs at least 7 days ago advising you that they would come if you did not make an arrangement with them and adding that the letter had

been charged to you at £75 and if they came out, a further 3235 would be added to the fees?

 

 

15. (1) This regulation applies where a controlled goods agreement is entered into under paragraph 13(1)(d) of Schedule 12.

 

(2) The agreement must be in writing and signed by the enforcement agent and—

 

(a)the debtor;

(b)the person authorised by the debtor in accordance with regulation 14(1)(b); or

©the person in apparent authority in accordance with regulation 14(1)©.

(3) The agreement must contain the following information—

 

(a)the name and address of the debtor;

(b)the reference number or numbers and the date of the agreement;

©the names of the persons entering into the agreement;

(d)a contact telephone number and address at which, and the days on which and the hours between which the enforcement agent or the enforcement agent’s office may be contacted;

(e)a list of the goods of which control has been taken with a description to enable the debtor to identify the goods correctly, including, where applicable—

(i)the manufacturer, model and serial number of the goods;

(ii)in the case of a vehicle, the manufacturer, model, colour and registration mark of the vehicle; and

(iii)the material, colour and usage, and (where appropriate) any other identifying characteristic of the goods; and

(f)the terms of the arrangement entered into between the enforcement agent and the debtor for the repayment, by the debtor, of the sum outstanding.

(4) At the time of entering into the agreement, the enforcement agent must give a copy of the signed agreement to the person who signed it under paragraph (2).

 

(5) Where the enforcement agent enters into the agreement with a person authorised by the debtor in accordance with regulation 14(1)(b) or with a person in apparent authority in accordance with regulation 14(1)©, the enforcement agent must also provide the debtor with a copy of the signed agreement by—

 

(a)leaving it in a conspicuous place on the relevant or specified premises, where the enforcement agent has taken control of the goods on such premises; or

(b)delivering it to any relevant premises, in a sealed envelope addressed to the debtor, where the enforcement agent has taken control of the goods on a highway.

(6) Where the enforcement agent leaves a copy of the agreement in a conspicuous place on the relevant or specified premises under paragraph (5)(a) and the enforcement agent knows that a person other than the debtor is on the premises or that there are other occupiers, the copy must be left in a sealed envelope addressed to the debtor.

 

(7) Paragraph (3)(e) is complied with if—

 

(a)the enforcement agent provides the debtor with a list of goods of which control has been taken under regulation 30(2)(f)(i) or regulation 33(1)(e) at the same time as entering into the controlled goods agreement; and

(b)the goods of which control has been taken are the same as those referred to in the list mentioned in sub-paragraph (a).

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[DragonFly1967]

In order for the Controlled Agreement to be valid it must comply with the stipulations below. I have entered in red the particularly relevant part for you. As you said-you can take it to your loo and use it there for all the use it is.

 

Did you not receive a letter from the bailiffs at least 7 days ago advising you that they would come if you did not make an arrangement with them and adding that the letter had

been charged to you at £75 and if they came out, a further 3235 would be added to the fees?

 

Thanks for all of that lookinforinfo, you're a star!

 

 

Nope, no letter before hand, as far as I'm concerned the guy has just turned up out of the blue.

 

What's worrying my other half now, and me as well if I'm honest, is that the bailiff is now is possession of a signed Controlled Goods Agreement that says that he has been into the house (even though he hasn't), isn't it going to be our word against his?

 

I'm quite happy to resist him, but my missus wouldn't be able to if they decided to try and force their way in using that document as leverage, and I dare say that the police would take one look at that document and agree with the bailiff. I'm bloody angry to be honest that my other half has been duped, but I suppose it should be expected of pond life.

[ploddertom]

My opinion of the paperwork you have been handed is that Andrex have more chance of offering something. Be interesting to know where they got a Compliance Fee of £235 from, then of course there is the previous inventory - this may make a good Secret Seven or Famous Five case. You need to challenge this with them, you should also contact your local Councillor(s) and ask them to intervene.

[brassnecked]

You could use the part highlighted by Lookedinforinfo, in red to show the councillor where their Agent Bristols & hooters have ridden a coach and horses through the TGCA 2007, and that they as a council are wholly liable for any act done by their agents B & S on their behalf, and that further as the paperwork they have given you is non compliant, chances are they have pulled the same stunt with another debtor.

 

As to the list, possibly a car will mirasculously appear on a sheet they forgot to leave with you.

 

If you have a car keep it well away for now.

[lookinforinfo]

Complain quickly in writing-email backed up by letter to the Council quoting it is a Stage One complaint.

 

1] you never received the Notice of Enforcement -a clear breach of the taking control of goods Act 2013

2] the EA turned up out of the blue with no prior notice-another breach of the Act as you have a Statutory right to receive a minimum of 7 clear days notice

3] the bailiff lied 3 times to your partner

a] that he had entered the property when he hadn't [probably scared of the three dogs]

b] that she was signing an agreement to pay when she actually signed a Controlled Goods Agreement though it did not conform to the Act as not a single item of property was

included nor identified

c] falsely stated he had powers of forced entry which he does not have without a Court order

all three of the above are in breach of the National Standards on Guidelines on Bailiff behaviour in respect of the taking of goods Act 2013

20. Enforcement agents must not be deceitful by misrepresenting their powers,

qualifications, capacities, experience or abilities, including, but not restricted to;

 Falsely implying or stating that action can or will be taken when legally it

cannot be taken by that agent

 

 Falsely implying or stating that a particular course of action will ensue before

it is possible to know whether such action would be permissible

 

 Falsely implying or stating that action has been taken when it has not

 Falsely implying or stating that a debtor refusing entry to a property is classed

as an offence

 

Copy the email to your local councillor, the Local Government Ombudsman and the bailiff company. If possible try and arrange a payment plan with the Council-one that you can afford and ask that in the light of the serious complaint against the bailiff, you have copied in the LGO, and ask that until the matter is resolved that the bailiffs are put on hold.

[brassnecked]

Great advice from lookedinforinfo, it highlights exactly what you need to include in the Formal Complaint Stage One, the elected councillors often are hazy as to exactly what their officers and agents are up to day to day.

[DragonFly1967]

Thanks for the great advice everyone, I'll need to look up a few details, like who the hell my local councillors are, and where to contact the LGO, but I'm sure Google will have all those answers

 

I'll report back with any updates

[brassnecked]

.

Thanks for the great advice everyone, I'll need to look up a few details, like who the hell my local councillors are, and where to contact the LGO, but I'm sure Google will have all those answers

 

I'll report back with any updates

Try the council website, or enter your postcodeon http://www.writetothem.com that will list your councillors and MP

[DragonFly1967]

.

Try the council website, or enter your postcode on (url removed (not enough posts)) that will list your councillors and MP

 

Google said that Thanks brassnecked. Is there anyone that I can run a copy of this letter past, to make sure I've not made any mistakes or missed anything important? Ideally in private.

[tomtubby]

Can you find out the precise amount of the Liability Order from the council.

 

It would seem from the document that the bailiff is under the impression that a 'previous' levy had been undertaken. If so, I would suggest that you send a text message to the bailiff (or email the company) to ask WHAT goods have previously been levied upon and the date on which any levy had supposedly been made. I notice that there is a 'Compliance' fee which is more than the £75 fee introduced on 6th April. I am not too concerned with this right now as it would 'seem' that this account may well be one where some form of enforcement had been undertaken BEFORE 6th April and if so, would be covered by the 'Transitional' fee regime. Without knowing more it is best to wait for further information before commenting.

 

PS: I am not at all impressed at the way in which these forms have been completed.

 

Do you have a car and would it have been possible for the vehicle to have been levied upon at an earlier stage without your knowledge.

[ploddertom]

 

PS: I am not at all impressed at the way in which these forms have been completed.

 

 

Classic example of pure laziness on behalf of the agent concerned, probably backed up by his employer as well instead of learning from it.

[DragonFly1967]

Can you find out the precise amount of the Liability Order from the council.

 

It would seem from the document that the bailiff is under the impression that a 'previous' levy had been undertaken. If so, I would suggest that you send a text message to the bailiff (or email the company) to ask WHAT goods have previously been levied upon and the date on which any levy had supposedly been made. I notice that there is a 'Compliance' fee which is more than the £75 fee introduced on 6th April. I am not too concerned with this right now as it would 'seem' that this account may well be one where some form of enforcement had been undertaken BEFORE 6th April and if so, would be covered by the 'Transitional' fee regime. Without knowing more it is best to wait for further information before commenting.

 

PS: I am not at all impressed at the way in which these forms have been completed.

 

Do you have a car and would it have been possible for the vehicle to have been levied upon at an earlier stage without your knowledge.

 

I'm guessing that the precise amount of our liability is the £1550.59 as written on the form. We did try to get more information from the Council yesterday, but they were, to be frank, most unhelpful, saying that as the matter had been passed to bailiffs, that we'd have to deal with them and they were unwilling to talk to us about it.

 

I am under the impression that there are 3 liability orders for various amounts, which would explain the £225 "Compliance Stage Fee" (3x£75 Greedy but legal), even though we've not received any "Compliance Stage" letters or any other kind of notice.

 

We do have a car, yes, but to be honest, it wouldn't be worth seizing, it's almost as old and worn out as I am. It's not parked on the drive

 

 

I suppose they could've levied on it at an earlier stage (anything is possible) but if they did, no one has told me.

[lookinforinfo]

It is possible that the Council have outsourced much of their operation to a third party [eg Collectica] who will also own a bailiff company hence the probable reason for their unwillingness to help. That is an advantage of initiating a stage one complaint as it will have to go to the senior officials in the Council rather than the outsourced company as they

will often be unaware that things are going pearshaped.

 

Tomtubby is right of course that you must get the actual figure that you owe the Council-bailiffs lie.

 

From what I remember they are able to charge £75 for each LO but cannot charge any more than one Enforcement fee [£235 plus 7.5% for any amount over £1500].

Even if they have levied on your car, for it to be a lawful levy they should have left you with an itemised account.

[brassnecked]

So much doesn't add up here it may well be a case of writing to the council for an itemised correct list of

 

How many Liability Orders they hold for you

When was each one obtained

How much is on each order

When were they passed to B & S for enforcement

 

Then the fees added can be assessed by comparing this with the B & S figures.

 

The paperwork to be frank, (isn't he some government drug advisor) is non compliant with the requirements of both transitional and new so that may well be useful later.