CH4 prog How to get a Council House. Any thoughts?

[Shendor]

I can see both sides of the debate here - I don't think anyone will change their views, even with stats to back up each viewpoint. My issue with Tower Hamlets is that 80% of the Bangladeshi community are in social housing, rising to 93% of Somali community. I make no comment whether they are second generation born here or otherwise. It makes no difference. What worries me is the ghettoisation of large Islamic populations in London (and I'm lead to believe across large parts of Birmingham, Leicester, Bradford etc - although I haven't experienced this first hand so am relying on news stories). However, in London I have my own empirical evidence and what worries me is of all ethnic communities it is ALWAYS without exception the Islamic ones that have issues with integration, learning the host language, fitting in with the wider society. Islam is a religion which is tolerable when in the minority, but, as in Tower Hamlets it is almost the majority and we are already seeing, Sha'ria law courts, Halal only in schools, Muslim patrols telling women to cover up and insulting gays.

 

Of course the easy way to shut down this debate is to simply call me wacist, boo-hoo, bad man, nasty man. However, in the next twenty years at current birthrates in London, the issue will find you whether you choose to ignore it or not.

 

I have no issue with people in genuine need claiming benefits - after all, I DO SO MYSELF!! My worry is with a certain section of society that thinks itself above fitting in, and seeks to change the host community, whilst all other races, religions, cults, ethnicities just seem to fit in and muddle along.

[essexmat]

My only argument here is that the benefit system before the welfare reforms and even now is a shambles - it cannot be perfect but at the moment it is also not very good, that is evident. I have no problem with genuine need and fleeing from opression BUT why is it the majority of these people who I feel genuine pity and sympathy for by the way, make their way to the UK to seek asylum? It is because, after all the reforms and talking non stop we are still, as a nation, an easy touch compared to other countries - this needs to change, people are taking advantage of the system and stopping GENUINE UK citezens getting the help they need i.e. housing, healthcare etc. Anyone that says immigration is helpful to the country is in some aspects right, if their is a contributory factor. If no contributions have ever been made surely they are a drain and not a resource? It is a road that is fraught with danger, we cannot be seen to be 'cleansing' but on the other hand we cannot carry on the way we are at the moment. What are the answers and solutions? I really don't know, I don't think there is one and that is the problem.

[citizenkain]

hmm,there is a lot of muslims in tower hamlets that is true,I noticed on the tv show they kept away from that point,the problem with muslims is there is no living with them unless your a muslim! that could be a definite problem with muslim people as they get moved out from high muslim areas to low muslim areas,probably a good thing for society as a whole,talking about racism,the most racist people I have ever met have all been muslims,they don't like anyone that aint a muslim

[Shendor]

My only argument here is that the benefit system before the welfare reforms and even now is a shambles - it cannot be perfect but at the moment it is also not very good, that is evident. I have no problem with genuine need and fleeing from opression BUT why is it the majority of these people who I feel genuine pity and sympathy for by the way, make their way to the UK to seek asylum? It is because, after all the reforms and talking non stop we are still, as a nation, an easy touch compared to other countries - this needs to change, people are taking advantage of the system and stopping GENUINE UK citezens getting the help they need i.e. housing, healthcare etc. Anyone that says immigration is helpful to the country is in some aspects right, if their is a contributory factor. If no contributions have ever been made surely they are a drain and not a resource? It is a road that is fraught with danger, we cannot be seen to be 'cleansing' but on the other hand we cannot carry on the way we are at the moment. What are the answers and solutions? I really don't know, I don't think there is one and that is the problem.

 

The UN convention on Asylum states that those fleeing persecution should find the nearest safe haven country. Hmmmm, anyone been to Calais recently? How many countries must these economic migrants traverse before reaching the land of milk and honey (milking money?)

[Shendor]

hmm,there is a lot of muslims in tower hamlets that is true,I noticed on the tv show they kept away from that point,the problem with muslims is there is no living with them unless your a muslim! that could be a definite problem with muslim people as they get moved out from high muslim areas to low muslim areas,probably a good thing for society as a whole,talking about racism,the most racist people I have ever met have all been muslims,they don't like anyone that aint a muslim

 

To be honest, I think this is the real idea behind the benefit cap - social engineering. Those affected are primarily in London due to extortionate rents, and inner London is where these Islamic ghettos are established. By forcing them to move and disperse it is a back-hand way of stopping the trend. Of course the ConDems would never admit to this, but I'm not sure I wholly disagree long-term either. Although my genuine sympathy is with those who have to leave their support networks, schools etc. But whoever said it was a perfect world. And if you are getting 'something for nothing' then you can hardly complain. If you don't like it, then use your own initiative to make money instead. Too harsh?

[citizenkain]

it is social engineering of a kind,maybe if all these folk got out of the loop they seem to be stuck in maybe they will change their lives,maybe it would be easier getting a job etc in a different area?

[sadone]

I do my own research that's how I know this to be fact,I certainly don't read right wing propaganda mags,I live in the real world.

 

So do I, which is why I know fact from fiction.

 

Too harsh?

 

Yes. Try applying that to MP's who do play the system far more then any other social group.

[Shendor]

 

Yes. Try applying that to MP's who do play the system far more then any other social group.

 

Two wrongs don't make a right though, surely?

[sadone]

No, but one group are meant to serve this country and they should be setting an example. Instead they are the biggest offenders, far outstripping anything done by anyone else.

[Shendor]

No, but one group are meant to serve this country and they should be setting an example. Instead they are the biggest offenders, far outstripping anything done by anyone else.

 

I can't disagree with you there

[estellyn]

Regarding Muslims wanting to live in their own communities and resisting 'integration'. The way I think about it is how would I feel if I lived in a country where lots of people were fearful, or hated, or were prejudiced or bigoted against people like me. Where I might be subject to verbal or physical abuse because of what I chose to wear or the religion I practiced. Well, taking these things into consideration, I think I would want to live somewhere I felt safe, among my own community to start with. Then I think I would find that the way I and people like me were treated and the way people like me were viewed and portrayed in the media would discourage me from wanting to 'integrate'. I would be telling my children to stay away from those that I felt might hurt them and discouraging them from making friends with people not like us. And the continual assault on my culture and religion would make me want to become more protective of it, not less. I might be constantly wary and distrustful of people not like me.

 

 

Ignorance breeds contempt, on both sides of this issue. I lived in Bury Park in Luton for a while, and yes I was treated with suspicion, as an outsider, but I could see how this view had come about and could sympathise. Sadly, contempt on both sides also breeds more hard lined views and violence (on both sides).

 

 

I really don't think it is feasible to break up communities like this by trying to move people out. I do believe, personally, that faith schools are not a good idea (even though I went to a fantastic faith school, they are not all like the school I went to). I think understanding of different cultures, religions and ways of life comes with being together and learning about each other and that schools and workplaces are an excellent place for that to happen. Of course where you have large communities of one culture or religion, it makes cultural and religious diversity in schools problematic.

 

 

Personally, I have found living and working in a cultural diverse society enriching. I take time to learn from the different people around me about their cultures and religion, and have found those around me to be very open to discussing their way of life and beliefs. Should housing policy try and force this type of interaction - I don't think you can force people to interact, but then the ghettoization of places like Bury Park in Luton and then the forming of groups such as the EDL really needs to be avoided.

 

 

I don't have all the answers - these are really difficult problems. But I think a good place to start is with ourselves, and try to at least start to tackle our own personal 'ignorance'.

[Shendor]

Regarding Muslims wanting to live in their own communities and resisting 'integration'. The way I think about it is how would I feel if I lived in a country where lots of people were fearful, or hated, or were prejudiced or bigoted against people like me. Where I might be subject to verbal or physical abuse because of what I chose to wear or the religion I practised. Well, taking these things into consideration, I think I would want to live somewhere I felt safe, among my own community to start with. Then I think I would find that the way I and people like me were treated and the way people like me were viewed and portrayed in the media would discourage me from wanting to 'integrate'. I would be telling my children to stay away from those that I felt might hurt them and discouraging them from making friends with people not like us. And the continual assault on my culture and religion would make me want to become more protective of it, not less. I might be constantly wary and distrustful of people not like me.

 

 

Ignorance breeds contempt, on both sides of this issue. I lived in Bury Park in Luton for a while, and yes I was treated with suspicion, as an outsider, but I could see how this view had come about and could sympathise. Sadly, contempt on both sides also breeds more hard lined views and violence (on both sides).

 

 

I really don't think it is feasible to break up communities like this by trying to move people out. I do believe, personally, that faith schools are not a good idea (even though I went to a fantastic faith school, they are not all like the school I went to). I think understanding of different cultures, religions and ways of life comes with being together and learning about each other and that schools and workplaces are an excellent place for that to happen. Of course where you have large communities of one culture or religion, it makes cultural and religious diversity in schools problematic.

 

 

Personally, I have found living and working in a cultural diverse society enriching. I take time to learn from the different people around me about their cultures and religion, and have found those around me to be very open to discussing their way of life and beliefs. Should housing policy try and force this type of interaction - I don't think you can force people to interact, but then the ghettoization of places like Bury Park in Luton and then the forming of groups such as the EDL really needs to be avoided.

 

 

I don't have all the answers - these are really difficult problems. But I think a good place to start is with ourselves, and try to at least start to tackle our own personal 'ignorance'.

 

 

Well done Estellyn - a heartfelt, if a little naive, post.

 

I'm not talking about 'Muslims' as a block group. I'm talking about Sunni Muslims. I live in Tower Hamlets where without exception all the Shia/Shi'te Muslims from Iran and Turkey are getting on just fine. But there is a hardcore Sunni/ Wa'habi majority who have it in their culture to proselytize and change any society they find themselves in, and if they can't weed us out, they'll breed us out. It truly is a medieval blood cult. Most Muslims I know where I live who are Sh'ia find it really problematic too. A case in point being that a huge majority of the girls on the street wearing niqab and burkhas are third generation to the UK - their parents and grandparents tell them that they fought oppressive horror to get the right to uncover their faces, so why go back to it now?

 

I have no answers either. But I worry about this whole 'fake-liberal acceptance of everything for fear of being seen as intolerant' trip that you are on. It comes from the right place for sure, but wait till Saudi funded Islam is in the majority in London - see how far your platitudes get you then. lol.

[estellyn]

Well done Esteylln - a heartfelt, if a little naive, post.

 

I'm not talking about 'Muslims' as a block group. I'm talking about Sunni Muslims. I live in Tower Hamlets where without exception all the Shia/Shi'te Muslims from Iran and Turkey are getting on just fine. But there is a hardcore Sunni/ Wa'habi majority who have it in their culture to proselytize and change any society they find themselves in, and if they can't weed us out, they'll breed us out. It truly is a medieval blood cult. Most Muslims I know where I live who are Sh'ia find it really problematic too. A case in point being that a huge majority of the girls on the street wearing niqab and burkhas are third generation to the UK - their parents and grandparents tell them that they fought oppressive horror to get the right to uncover their faces, so why go back to it now?

 

I have no answers either. But I worry about this whole 'fake-liberal acceptance of everything for fear of being seen as intolerant' trip that you are on. It comes from the right place for sure, but wait till Saudi funded Islam is in the majority in London - see how far your platitudes get you then. lol.

 

 

I'm certainly not on any 'fake liberal acceptance trip'. All I do is put myself in another person's position and think 'how would I feel in that situation'. Just because I can understand the conclusions a person has come to, does not mean I agree with them - just means I understand how they got to that place - I understand how a right wing Tory gets to the views they have, doesn't mean I don't loathe their views. I hardly presented any platitudes - in fact I stated that I didn't know the answers for the difficult questions. And if you knew me, you'd realise I'm anything but naïve.

 

 

And perspective is everything - where I live it is the Sunni who are seen to be integrating and the Shia who are not. Many of the Muslim women I know, who didn't before, started wearing hijab or niqab because of the hostilities towards their religion both here and abroad - a way of affirming their faith and a protest against western society. Regardless of what their grandparents went through, they see their faith 'threatened' and some become more hard lined because of this. It is difficult for the younger generation who have never been there and lived it, to realise the horrors of being a woman living somewhere like Iran, they are too far removed in this country from the oppression faced by their grandparents, and it is naïve to think that some words from their grandparents will carry more weight than what they see and experience around them now.

 

 

A 'fake liberal acceptance trip' would indeed be damaging. Neither of us have any answers, but first we need to identify the issues and the causes before people wiser than me can attempt to come up with solutions

[Shendor]

And perspective is everything - where I live it is the Sunni who are seen to be integrating and the Shia who are not.

 

I don't mean to sound rude, but you've just proved you don't really know what you're talking about. Most Shi'a Muslims don't even wear the hijab let alone the niqab or burqa. It's an affectation of Sunni only, and comes from the need for men to control their women. I'm sure you mean well, but you really need to understand what you're talking about before just blindly defending anything that challenges your liberal sensibilities.

[estellyn]

I don't mean to sound rude, but you've just proved you don't really know what you're talking about. Most Shi'a Muslims don't even wear the hijab let alone the niqab or burqa. It's an affectation of Sunni only, and comes from the need for men to control their women. I'm sure you mean well, but you really need to understand what you're talking about before just blindly defending anything that challenges your liberal sensibilities.

 

 

You do sound rude and also offensive and condescending. You speak about being grateful people are not shutting your right wing comments down as a racist, but are quick to dismiss a person as a liberal; sounds rather hypocritical. You also sound as if you have a axe to grind on the religion issue.

 

 

I don't profess to be an expert - unlike you who claim to be an expert on every town in the UK and it's demographics.

 

 

My husband's aunt lives in Iran and is a Shia Muslim and has experienced huge issues because of the subjugation of women she experienced there. Control of women is cultural, and not solely religious and crosses many borders. I worked with a Jehovah's Witness from Bangladesh who wore a headscarf. I regularly discussed religion with a (male) Sunni co worker who was a really nice, gentle guy - his wife wore western clothing. My understanding (limited though it is) is that there are different sub sects even within the major sects of Islam, and that an individual's Imam can have a big influence.

 

 

Or to be plain, I prefer, personally to look at the individual I meet, rather than making big judgements about 'groups'.

[citizenkain]

personally I don't think there is any place for any religion in the 21st century,all religion seems to be a giant step backwards,surely as these people that have immigrated here to the uk get a decent education they will see religion for what it is,fairy tales, and probably there will be more harmony in our society,there does seem to be a lot of religious teachers coming to this country bringing their point of view from where they come from and filling the heads of the young here with it,maybe that should be discouraged .

[estellyn]

personally I don't think there is any place for any religion in the 21st century,all religion seems to be a giant step backwards,surely as these people that have immigrated here to the uk get a decent education they will see religion for what it is,fairy tales, and probably there will be more harmony in our society,there does seem to be a lot of religious teachers coming to this country bringing their point of view from where they come from and filling the heads of the young here with it,maybe that should be discouraged .

 

 

Although the world might be better, I think people tend to always find something to fight about. I think it will be a long time before we've all evolved to live peacefully. I don't think you can prevent people having religious beliefs - some people need a way to explain the world around them and get scared and unfilled if they think it's all just evolution and chance with no guiding 'presence'. Even if I don't believe, I don't feel it's for me to try and take away the comfort their religion brings to them. But yes, my husband also calls it 'fairy tales'.

[Shendor]

You do sound rude and also offensive and condescending. You speak about being grateful people are not shutting your right wing comments down as a racist, but are quick to dismiss a person as a liberal; sounds rather hypocritical. You also sound as if you have a axe to grind on the religion issue.

 

 

I don't profess to be an expert - unlike you who claim to be an expert on every town in the UK and it's demographics.

 

 

 

Or to be plain, I prefer, personally to look at the individual I meet, rather than making big judgements about 'groups'.

 

 

Yawn. Sorry if I threatened you. Yes I'm sure everything you say is wonderful.... Carry on...

[estellyn]

Yawn. Sorry if I threatened you. Yes I'm sure everything you say is wonderful.... Carry on...

 

 

methinks I fed a troll....

[Shendor]

methinks I fed a troll....

 

If it makes you more comfortable to believe that rather than analyse reality, then fair enough. x

[estellyn]

If it makes you more comfortable to believe that rather than analyse reality, then fair enough. x

 

 

You live in your reality, I'll live in mine, and let's leave it at that.

[Shendor]

You live in your reality, I'll live in mine, and let's leave it at that.

 

Sorry you couldn't.

 

It's a big confusing question. No easy sound bites, hey? x

[sadone]

methinks I fed a troll....

 

Yeah methinks you're right. Best not engage with them anymore.

[Shendor]

Yeah methinks you're right. Best not engage with them anymore.

 

Sorry you feel that way. Yeah let's get all Mumsnet about it and shut down anyone who has an opinion that makes us think.

 

Let's all stay comfortable and grateful for the wonderful responses...

 

Sorry if I offended anyone or made them think.

[antone]

I think we'll call it a day here.