Accused of fare evasion - **SETTLED OUT OF COURT **

[Becky_kay]

Hi,

 

back in august I just broke up with my partner and was feeling very upset so

 

took a train from liverpool to St. Helens to go see my parents,

I bought a return ticket.

Whilst I was there I was upset so decided I would stay the night and travel home next day.

 

Next day I took the train home and nobody came to check tickets on the train,

I got to the barriers, to the side was a small stand where people could buy tickets.

 

I went straight through the gates with my return ticket and went to hand it to the officer checking instead,

as I was passing it over I noticed the return date was for the previous day.

 

I went over and explained to him I'd bought the return not realizing it was a same day one as I travel quite a bit

and usually a return is open for the month, apologised and said I'd have to buy a ticket.

The officer got very nasty and started saying he wanted my details as this was fare evasion.

 

I was quite shocked and tried to explain I work in compliance myself and would never do that,

it was quite clearly a mistake just by looking at the dates on my ticket,

I hadn't handed in a random old ticket or wasn't like I didn't have one.

plus I was extremely upset over my breakup and didn't even cross my mind,

it was the return part to a the journey and I hadnt relized it had ran out,

I hadn't checked it as hadn't had any reason to as far as I thought!

 

He was so rude and I stupidly said

"I'm probably on more money then you why would I try and avoid paying 3.90??"

More because I was so offended and confused why he was speaking to me like dirt and accusing me of this.

 

It would make no sense to pay more to buy a return knowing it would be of date if I was going to fare evade?!

Plus I was the one who pointed the mistake out to him and said I had to buy one?!

But anyway he took my details, confirmed them and off I went.

 

I got a letter in December askin me to give my version of events so I sent it in.

 

Now I have received a court summons accusing me of abusive language and attempt to fare Avade?!

 

He claims after givin my details I walked away and said "go **** yourself" which I honestly never!

 

Why would I give in my details, let him confirm them and then swear at him??

That would be stupid! I'm so upset.

 

I haven't purposely done anything wrong,

I already suffer with depression and anxiety and don't know what to do here.

 

I'm a single mum and if I get a criminal record I could lose my job as I'm a civil servant workin in compliance.

.I actually work to prevent fraud not go out there and commit it!!!

 

Could anyone give me advice on what to do please??

 

Surely they can see the CCTV and see I approach him and point it out and hear I never swore??

Wouldn't he have to provide proof of this??

[Becky_kay]

I jus wanted to make a few points quickly too. I understand my ticket wasn't in date but I honestly thought it was as I'd bought a return just the day before! It was a unused return ticket back so surely that tells them I wasn't trying to purposely avade. It would make no sense to pay more for a return if I was simply going to hand in a out of date ticket! I would of bought one before getting on (like I did in the first place) or bought one before headin to the barriers upon arriving had I thought my ticket wasn't valid! I was the one who pointed it out as I handed it over n realized n questioned why it was out of date wen I'd bought it the day before n said sorry il have to buy one I didn't relize it ran out the same day, as usually returns last for a month?! I hadn't even checked the date as I had no reason to because I knew I'd only bought it the day before! Also how can I prove I never swore at him? It would be stupid to swear at someone after giving them ur details surely the court will see that?! Iv never been in trouble in my life I'd never avoid paying a fare or abuse someone it's just not in my nature.

[king12345]

Did you put the ticket through the automatic gate or not?

If you didn't you can request a printout of the ticket proving that it had not been used the day before, so in other words you were not better off and the toc didn't lose a penny.

Also if they refuse to give you a printout, have you got evidence that you stayed in st helen for the night?

Hotel receipt, friend's statement, etc.

With regards to the swearing, I would write an official complaint to the toc about the inspector and his incorrect account of facts (don't call them lies).

The judges usually are inclined to believe all the rubbish they hear from inspectors, even if there's no evidence to support them.

A good judge would see through it, but...

It wasn't your lucky day, was it?

[Becky_kay]

The return I had bought was two seperate tickets - one going out and one coming back. So it was obvious I hadn't used it before as I took the train to St. Helens on the outward as ticket, and then used the inbound ticket on my return back to liverpool. I stayed at my parents house, I could get a statement from them no problem. I hadn't even intended on staying it was just because whilst there me and my mum wer having a talk about my breakup and I was upset so decided to stay as I didn't want to be alone, and I had a return ticket so I could just go back in the morning. I'm so upset this has happened I honestly never intended to Avade anything, I used a unused ticket I just didn't relize for that particular journey it expired the same day! I didn't gain anything and the company didn't lose so I don't understand why this nasty man is trying to ruin my life!

[BazzaS]

The return I had bought was two seperate tickets - one going out and one coming back. So it was obvious I hadn't used it before as I took the train to St. Helens on the outward as ticket, and then used the inbound ticket on my return back to liverpool. I stayed at my parents house, I could get a statement from them no problem. I hadn't even intended on staying it was just because whilst there me and my mum wer having a talk about my breakup and I was upset so decided to stay as I didn't want to be alone, and I had a return ticket so I could just go back in the morning. I'm so upset this has happened I honestly never intended to Avade anything, I used a unused ticket I just didn't relize for that particular journey it expired the same day! I didn't gain anything and the company didn't lose so I don't understand why this nasty man is trying to ruin my life!

 

Was it a day return or available for use anytime (or e.g. within a month, or 3 months). If it was a day return dated for the previous day then it wasn't a valid ticket so (if you are applying a test of they "lost" or you "gained" : the TOC "lost" a fare of a single for the return leg the next day, and you gained not having to pay for that return leg as your day return ticket wasn't valid that next day.

 

A cheap day return is less than a period return, which was an option open to you if you weren't SURE when you would be returning.

 

If they decide to proceed under Bylaw 18 they don't have to show you intended to avoid a fare (which would be a different prosecution under S5.3 RRA 1889) but merely that you were asked to show a VALID ticket and didn't.

 

That "nasty man" is paid to check tickets. Pointing out to him "I'm probably on more money then you why would I try and avoid paying 3.90??", may well have hardened his attitude to report you.

 

Tread carefully : you may well feel morally justified, he may well have been less than pleasant, but taking anything less than an apologetic and remorseful stance might lead to you being in front of the Magistrates and being asked to answer one question and one question only : "when asked to show a ticket did you show a valid ticket?" (and showing a ticket that expired the day before would be mitigation once guilty, rather than 'not guilty').

 

Edited to add : I note you have already replied to their letter. How was the tone of your reply?

Factual? Apologetic? Surprised they were considering prosecution?

 

What alleged offence (/ offences) does the summons state they are proceeding under? Bylaw 18? S5.3 RRA 1889?

And what alleged offence for the alleged abusive comment?

[Becky_kay]

I jus asked for a return ticket, it wasn't mentioned day return or anything like that. I travel a lot with work and whenever I have a return it's always open within the month, that's why I questioned it with the officer as soon as it was noticed and apologised and said I'd buy one now. With the offence saying "intended to travel without paying fare"

I honestly never INTENDED to do anything, I completely understand my ticket wasn't valid..but I never realized this! Like I say why would I buy a return with the intent of travelling back the next day with a invalid ticket? Surely I would of saved myself the extra money and bought a single. I would never decieve anyone it's just not in my nature at all.

[Becky_kay]

And upon speaking to the officer at the time he said that journey only did day returns . It didn't do open returns due to it only been a short trip. So this was not a "option made to me" when purchasing my ticket. It wasn't asked when I would be returning nor was it said it would only be open for that day.

[BazzaS]

And upon speaking to the officer at the time he said that journey only did day returns . It didn't do open returns due to it only been a short trip. So this was not a "option made to me" when purchasing my ticket. It wasn't asked when I would be returning nor was it said it would only be open for that day.

 

Checking the national rail website, the off-peak day return is £4.60 from Liverpool to St. Helens, and there is indeed no period return, one has to buy 2 x £4.00 singles.

 

They'll say "it is your responsibility to ensure you hold a valid ticket", so you have my sympathy, but my sympathy won't be enough to prevent them successfully prosecuting you.

 

As for " Like I say why would I buy a return with the intent of travelling back the next day with a invalid ticket? Surely I would of saved myself the extra money and bought a single. I would never decieve anyone it's just not in my nature at all." : I have no reason to doubt you, but putting yourself in their shoes - they must hear this both from people who have made an innocent mistake but also the serial offenders who have just been caught for the first time : how do you expect them to differentiate?

Also, do you think your comment about earning more (with benefit of hindsight) might make them sway towards one or the other belief?.

 

You may have replied to my previous post before I edited it to add :

 

I note you have already replied to their letter. How was the tone of your reply?

Factual? Apologetic? Surprised they were considering prosecution?

 

What alleged offence (/ offences) does the summons state they are proceeding under? Bylaw 18? S5.3 RRA 1889?

And what alleged offence for the alleged abusive comment?

[Becky_kay]

Yeah I completely understand I shouldn't of said that and I apologised in my letter, it wasn't meant in the way it came across it was just trying to state why would I want to Avade 3.90! It was the way he was speaking to me aswell when I'd explained it was a mistake, I was just shocked at what was going on and what I was bein accused of after explaining the reason why? When I was asking him why my ticket wasn't in date and should I buy a new one I was completely taken back when he started accusin me of fare dodging!

 

The first charge says "did travel on a railway without previously paid the fare of 3.90 with the intent to avoid payment thereof. And says it's regulation of the railways act 1889 as amended section 84 of the transport act 1962 and section 18 of the British railways act 1997.

 

The second one is byelaw no.6(1) saying I used threatening,abusive,obscene or offensive language. Which I NEVER! Surely they can see the CCTV cameras and witness it was me who approached the officer tryna explain what I'd done, and see that in no way did it get to the point I would walk away and swear? These conversations should be made legal to record when taking details. It's appalling people can lie like this and potentially ruin lives!

[Becky_kay]

The main point I tried to make in the letter was if I knew I was going to stay over and a return wouldn't of been valid..why would I of purchased a return? I would of either a) bought two singles and been honest. Or b) if I had planned to avoid paying my fare I would of saved the extra money and bought one ticket. It seems they don't look at each case Individual tho. I accept my ticket was invalid but I refuse to please guilty to "intent not to pay fare" as I did not intend it!! It seems very harsh I will have a criminal record for this and potentially lose my job!!

[BazzaS]

The main point I tried to make in the letter was if I knew I was going to stay over and a return wouldn't of been valid..why would I of purchased a return? I would of either a) bought two singles and been honest. Or b) if I had planned to avoid paying my fare I would of saved the extra money and bought one ticket. It seems they don't look at each case Individual tho. I accept my ticket was invalid but I refuse to please guilty to "intent not to pay fare" as I did not intend it!! It seems very harsh I will have a criminal record for this and potentially lose my job!!

 

Depending, you may well be able to defend against a 5.3 "travelling without previously paid their fare AND with intent".

They have to prove your intent.

 

You say you made a mistake and you realised at the gate.

Did you approach the member of staff saying "I've just realised my ticket is out of date"? Or are they likely to claim they stopped you and if they hadn't of stopped you you'd have left without paying that day's fare?

 

Either way, if they choose to go for a Bylaw 18 prosecution instead of the 5.3 RRA 1889, you'd struggle to defend the alternate charge.

[Becky_kay]

Yeah i was walking through I got the ticket out of my bag looked at it to see it was the return one and that's wen I saw the date, I thought it was their mistake so went over to him n told him showing him the other part to show what date I bought it, that's when he said they don't do open returns n it was invalid so I apologised and said il have to buy one sorry I didn't relize.

[Becky_kay]

Do you think they would have CCTV from that day I could request?

[BazzaS]

Do you think they would have CCTV from that day I could request?

 

You could do a SAR under the data protection act.

Would it be helpful though? If it showed you walking to the gate line with a ticket and speaking with a member of staff do you think that would allow a court to distinguish:

A) if you said what they allege or not (if there is no soundtrack) and

B) if you were saying you had an invalid ticket or if they. "Caught you with an invalid ticket"

 

I'm not sure that CCTV would necessarily show the difference ......

[Becky_kay]

I suppose so. It's just so infuriating I can't prove I didn't swear and I'm litterly going to get a criminal record for a genuine mistake, the same record someone who openly admits they were dare avading would Get

[firstclassx]

Regards to Byelaw 6, it doesn't really matter whether you swore or not- you were still abusive when you exclaimed you were on more money than him, you deliberately intended to offend/belittle him. In addition, in my experience, such comments are made in conjunction with other similar remarks such as "jobsworth" etc, so I think you need to carefully consider your position as to what else you may have said.

 

The prosecutor may paint a picture to the court that your actions (possibly in breach of Byelaw 6), go some way to proving "intent" to avoid the fare and may try and use that assertion to support the Section 5(3) offence.

 

I have a very strong feeling that you have written to Northern Rail prior to receiving a summons. If this is the case, if you haven't been apologetic or sincere, this will be the reason you are being prosecuted as Northern usually allow most first time offenders to pay their £80 penalty.

[Becky_kay]

Yeah like I stated I had wrote to them giving my version of events. I apologised for the money comment and told them my side of what happened. I never called him a jobs worth or anything in conjunction, nothing else is mentioned in his statement.

[firstclassx]

Yeah like I stated I had wrote to them giving my version of events. I apologised for the money comment and told them my side of what happened. I never called him a jobs worth or anything in conjunction, nothing else is mentioned in his statement.

 

All I can suggest is your letter may not have been entirely apologetic, or not read as sincere. Did you offer to pay their administrative costs dealing with the incident? Did you explain what effect a criminal record would have on your life?

 

If you complained about the way you felt you were treated etc, this is not the correct way to deal with such letters. As much as they say to give your side of events, they should be seen as an opportunity for you to accept liability and unreservedly apologise, not offer excuses!

 

I don't think it's looking good for you to be honest.

 

Let me show you what a Prosecutor could do with your first post (I'm not having a go here BTW, just showing you how easily it could potentially be interpreted or painted differently) :

 

I went over and explained to him I'd bought the return not realizing it was a same day one as I travel quite a bit

and usually a return is open for the month, apologised and said I'd have to buy a ticket.

The officer got very nasty and started saying he wanted my details as this was fare evasion.

 

Why would he get nasty at this stage? He has no reason to be so, indeed, he will have dealt with many, many similar incidents in his career. Perhaps your version of "nasty" is that you didn't agree with what he was saying or proposed to do and because you were not getting your own way, you decided to become abusive or awkward.

 

I went straight through the gates with my return ticket and went to hand it to the officer checking instead,

as I was passing it over I noticed the return date was for the previous day.

I went over and explained to him I'd bought the return not realizing it was a same day one as I travel quite a bit

and usually a return is open for the month, apologised and said I'd have to buy a ticket.

 

You start by saying you went straight through the gates, how did you manage this? One moment, you are literally about to hand the ticket over to him at the barrier line, only noticing at the very last second it is out of date, but the next you are going over to him to explain - this could be a contradiction. Did the man at the barrier send you over to somebody else/the ticket desk?

 

An alternative theory is that you walked through the gates, presented an out of date ticket, and somebody apprehended you either at the gate or on the opposite side and asked you to step back in for an interview. (Indeed, this is how it is normally operated at Liverpool Lime Street).

 

My final observation is the £3.90. How has this fare been reached? St. Helens Central to Liverpool Stns is £4.00 Single. Did this incident happen in December?

[Becky_kay]

The letter states I avoided the fare of 3.90 the incident happened in August.

 

I did exactly as I explained, at lime street nobody was checking tickets at the barriers, just through the barriers where revenue officers..these are who I approached to explain. I only checked the date at this point because id got the ticket out of my bag and had to look to see which was the correct ticket for the return part of the journey, I noticed and went straight over to question the date n explained then apologised and said I'd buy a new one wen he told me a open return cnt be issued for that journey only same day. I hadn't checked previously because with me buying it the day before i hadn't needed to? Also not using this as a excuse but I was under medication for my anxiety and depression, recently came off that then gone through a horrific break up..last thing on my mind was the date on my ticket I was in a

awfull way, every return I usualy buy to Manchester,blackpool,Leeds etc is open for the month, didn't occur to me this one wudnt be.

[firstclassx]

The letter states I avoided the fare of 3.90 the incident happened in August.

 

I did exactly as I explained, at lime street nobody was checking tickets at the barriers, just through the barriers where revenue officers..these are who I approached to explain. I only checked the date at this point because id got the ticket out of my bag and had to look to see which was the correct ticket for the return part of the journey, I noticed and went straight over to question the date n explained then apologised and said I'd buy a new one wen he told me a open return cnt be issued for that journey only same day. I hadn't checked previously because with me buying it the day before i hadn't needed to? Also not using this as a excuse but I was under medication for my anxiety and depression, recently came off that then gone through a horrific break up..last thing on my mind was the date on my ticket I was in a

awfull way, every return I usualy buy to Manchester,blackpool,Leeds etc is open for the month, didn't occur to me this one wudnt be.

 

You're either missing something major out, or Northern's case is doomed to fail.

 

Can you confirm the following timeline:

 

August 2013 - You travelled and are stopped, cautioned and interviewed about your invalid ticket.

December 2013 - You receive a letter from Northern Rail asking for your version of events, to which you replied.

March/April 2014 - You receive a court summons

 

4 months is a very long time between being stopped and receiving a letter from Northern Rail. Are you absolutely sure it was August? Are you certain you have not been stopped on another occasion? Have you previously received a summons and either ignored it or the case been adjourned?

 

(However, now, by your own admission, you walked through the open barriers, despite you seeing a ticket desk on the "unpaid" side, before realising that an Inspector was waiting and only then explaining your problem? I can see why Northern are looking at the "intent". Had that Inspector not have been present, you would have carried on walking out of the station).

 

Anyway, the timeline is very important, so if you could confirm the sequence of events, it would be helpful.

 

(I also note you have made an identical post on a rail enthusiast forum. I would recommend that you carefully consider any responses you receive on that other forum, it is heavily biased against the train companies IMO).

[Becky_kay]

Yeah the timeline is right! It's came as a shock when I got it all. The dates are on the letter too. Aug 27th the ticket was for, aug 28th I got stopped. December 21st wrote out to me, I got the letter the 24th finally got through to them beginnin of jan as they wer closed Xmas period, they received my letter 4 days later and I finally get a summons on Friday!

 

I never went to buy a ticket because i already thought I had one you see, I could see the revenue officers on the other side of the barriers checking so was going to show them my ticket, as I was walking through towards them n got the ticket out my bag for inspection I noticed it and went straight over n questioned it and explained.

 

I haven't missed a single detail out, everything iv wrote is what's happened, this is why it's taken me by surprise to much. I genuinly never intended to Avade anything. I wouldn't do that! I accept my ticket wasn't valid but surely I'm not the only one who has made a mistake, I pointed it out and offered to buy a new one straight away when told the reason why it wasn't valid. I'm not some sort of criminal who wanted to [problem] the company out of 3.90?!

[firstclassx]

Yeah the timeline is right! It's came as a shock when I got it all. The dates are on the letter too. Aug 27th the ticket was for, aug 28th I got stopped. December 21st wrote out to me, I got the letter the 24th finally got through to them beginnin of jan as they wer closed Xmas period, they received my letter 4 days later and I finally get a summons on Friday!

 

I never went to buy a ticket because i already thought I had one you see, I could see the revenue officers on the other side of the barriers checking so was going to show them my ticket, as I was walking through towards them n got the ticket out my bag for inspection I noticed it and went straight over n questioned it and explained.

 

I haven't missed a single detail out, everything iv wrote is what's happened, this is why it's taken me by surprise to much. I genuinly never intended to Avade anything. I wouldn't do that! I accept my ticket wasn't valid but surely I'm not the only one who has made a mistake, I pointed it out and offered to buy a new one straight away when told the reason why it wasn't valid. I'm not some sort of criminal who wanted to [problem] the company out of 3.90?!

 

Ring the court up ASAP, i.e. tomorrow (Monday) and ask them when Northern Rail "laid the information" in relation to the offence(s) listed on the summons. If they "laid the information" before the court any later than Feb 27th 2014, Northern Rail cannot prosecute you.

[Becky_kay]

Also looking at the documents here, the inspector says in his statement the correct journey "liverpool lime street to sthelens JUNCTION" then on the charge papers what will be read to me in court it says "liverpool lime street to sthelens CENTRAL". Which is incorrect, as the inspectors statement and my ticket state! So there's a mistake on their behalf too, surely if checking details was so important n not makin mistakes then this wasn't displayed very well in their documents. I just want to prove to them I am not a criminal and made a genuine mistake to which I do apologise for, I had no intentions of not paying I would of gladly paid once explained to me why my ticket wasn't valid! He spoke to me like I was some sort of low life criminal trying to avoid paying all of 3.90!

It's ludicrous!

[Becky_kay]

Il ring them tomorrow and find out!

[Becky_kay]

Ah I jus looked at the sumons n they were stamped 28th jan?