Unfair Dismissal, Race Discrimination, Preg/sex discrimination - ** SETTLED **

[panxa]

Hi all,

I really need some advise on my current Employment Case and what to do next. Im currently representing myself, I do not belong to a Union or any org that helps me other than ACAS. I cannot afford Legal Rep and I do not qualify for Legal Aid because my partners savings count as household income(savings are for our new mortgage deposit)

I will start by telling you the most relevant points from the beginning.

 

Im from a non EU country. I arrived in the UK when I was 16 years old and I have remained here for the last 12 years.

I currently live in Scotland.

 

The main concern of my story goes back to January 2012, when I had applied for a permanent residence card which I was entitled to after remaining under the same EEU family member residence card visa for 5 years continuous. At the time I was working full time and my daughter was only 5 years old. I also had already engaged in a long term relationship with my present partner for a few years.

When I was asked in 2012 by my employer to show them my passport status (standard checks by employers) I advised them that because my visa came to renewal point (expiry date 16 January 2012) and I was entitled to Permanent Residence under the EU regulations, I had sent my documents to the Home Office along with my application. My employer was happy with my answer and never asked my again for the time being.

In June 2012 I received a letter from Home Office saying that I had not right to stay in the UK and I had to make travel arrangements back to Chile with any dependents(my daughter was born in the UK and held Spanish residence and attends full time education, I could not possibly remove her from her environment when she had no connections to my home country!) Their grounds of refusal were astounding! Apparently I had to show HO a divorce certificate (I never married) from my ex EEU family member but I had showed HO that I was the main carer of a EEU child and my previous relationship broke down due to Violence (evidence provided)

I then made then a brand new application, this time with a help of a Immigration solicitor who assured us that my application was going to be successful, so we submitted it again. I was always open and honest to my employer as for what had been happening with my application at this stage even when they didn't ask for any further documentation, I continued working no issues.

 

In October 2012 I was moved to a new team within my department and so I had new colleagues to work with. Comments and bullying about my race/ where I Was from" was from started to become common practice for my new colleagues. They mocked my accent almost everyday and picked on certain words I said and they would repeat it among themselves and laugh, I was certainly not laughing and it made me feel ashamed of myself. Even one of the more senior colleagues made comments about my country and its people, asking me if "we" lived in tents and If I had ever seen clean water before I arrived in the UK, it made me feel very inferior and insulted by those comments and the constant mockery.

I raised a grievance with my new manager. He read my email I sent him about the situation and he acknowledged it, he then replied stating that there was a "dignity at work" policy but he didn't say or do anything else.

 

The mockery continued and I did confront my colleagues about it, but it just kept happening on a weekly basis.

 

Then, in December 2012 I found out I was pregnant! delightful news for our family (we wanted a baby so bad after I had a miscarriage in May that year)

 

In December same year, I had two one to one meetings with my manager to address the racially fueled comments and also to discuss a few absences from work due to pregnancy related illnesses I was suffering. I had to tell my manager I was pregnant.

My manager did nothing about the racial discrimination comments but instead decided to victimized me and mock me as well in one of those meetings, he said "but you speak funny"- He then asked me who was making such comments and laughing at me, but he then did nothing and excused himself saying that " he obviously was never there present in the team to witness"

 

During the course of December I fell ill with my pregnancy, I had some bleeding at 9 and then 12 weeks and I was panicking. I then developed Sciatica and PGP which left me grounded in bed for several days before I could start Physiotherapy, I could hardly move or walk without the help of crutches. I was signed off by doctor for a couple of weeks(xmas celebrations/new year)

 

When physio started I commenced a new year at work, January 2013, but I was still taking time off for my physio appointments and my weekly check ups because of my bleeding., I could see that my manager wasn't happy and he started asking me to work time off for appointments back.

 

Then, at the beginning of Feb 2013 I received the outcome of my latest Home Office application. Home Office refused to grant me Permanent Residence(grounds were again divorce certificate) and were asking for my removal from the UK. Our world came crashing down, especially when learning that the Home Office grounds of refusal were not valid and they had clearly made a mistake in law. We went ahead and appealed their decision, the appeal was accepted by Tier1 tribunal and my case was going to be allocated for a hearing date.

 

I, then innocently shared the devastating news with some of my colleagues and my manager heard. Immediately he asked me to provide the latest letter from HO to me because he wanted to look at it. I did. He then took a copy of it and disappeared with it in hands. Later that day he called into a meeting room to say I should provide any valid paper work to prove the right of work in the UK.

I obviously couldn't provide any evidence because the HO retained all my docs and they wouldn't give me any evidence with regards to my work status.( My manager was pushing me to ask HO to provide a direct email that very same day to HR confirming my work eligibility, yeah right! )

I phoned my Immigration solicitor asking for advise. He then wrote to my work and advised them I had all rights to continue working and that my appeal was going to be held shortly. My employer then said this info was only my solicitors opinion and they then continued demanding from me evidence of my right to work.

My manager, continued calling me into meetings for 3 days straight about 4 times a day!, threatening me with suspension/ dismissal. I was told not to tell any of my colleagues at work of this meetings even though I was throgh out suffering with stress/crying fits.

I cried my eyes out, I was so scared of losing my job and I was confused, I didn't know what else to do, I was no part of an union, my only support was my family. I tried contacting HR (who were never present in these meetings) in what to do and what were my rights, but they never came back to me. I felt harassed during my meeting with my manager and very scared, worried and no one to turn to.(within my colleagues)

It was all too much for me. My partner had to take me to my GP who refereed me to counselling (10 weeks waiting list) by my doctor was very concerned about my deteriorating health that she had to prescribe me with Diazepam!. I was only to take it when in deep stress.

 

Before I knew it I was suspended for the whole of March 2013 with full pay.

Through out the suspension we had weekly meetings with employer, this meetings were all very one sided : do you have documentation to prove your right to work?

I didnt know who else to ask for help, I then went to my local MP to see if she could contact HO directly and confirm my right of work, My MP was then told by the HO that employers have a service available to them called the Employee checking service"

I forwarded a letter from my MP confirming of this service to my employer, this letter stated that its an employer responsibility to establish the employee residential status, not the employee.

 

In April 11th 2013 I was dismissed. Grounds of dismissal: "you were unable to provide evidence of your right to work in the UK" "under the Immigration, Nationality and Asylum act 2006 you must prove your right to work"

I appealed the dismissal on grounds that I had an immigration appeal ongoing and further evidence would be available to me, but at the same time I made a full application to the employment tribunals for unfair dismissal, race discrimination and preg/sex discrimination in July 2013 before my 3 months were up.

 

When I had my appeal meetings with ex employer, there was a lot of finger pointing and "its your burden to prove you are not illegal immigrant" etc etc.Before the very first meeting of my appeal against dismissal, I wrote to my ex employer and I pointed out that I was going to make an unfair dismissal claim to the ET including race and sex/preg discrimination. The head of department then called me into a hearing and asked me full details of my allegations in order for her to carry out a full investigation. At the time I had copies of the very email of my grievance to my manager. Ms head of department took copies of this and asked If i possessed any further evidence of my allegations. I responded no.( I do but I will tell more about it later)

 

I was sick, it all got too much, I collapsed at home with panick attacks and uncontrollable crying fits.

 

In August 2013 I had our baby, he was healthy and great!

 

I lost my SMP thought, and future earnings, and to date my employment tribunal is still ongoing. My Immigration status has now been sorted and I have been granted residence based on my daughter entitlement to be in the UK (which I am also going to appeal) but because I am her main carer I need to work to provide for her.

 

I am claiming Unfair dismissal, race discrimination, preg/sex discrimination, the respondent denies this allegations on the ET3 form and also claims that unfair dismissal was to prevent future fines under I, N and Asylum act 2006. They also say that my race, sex/preg are time barred and therefore put of time, also say that I never raised grievances with my employer

 

My case was accepted. We already had a Prem hearing at the Tribunals and this went ok. We are now waiting on a final hearing date.

 

Im going to cut to the chase here. I want to ask about settling. We have a mediator from Acas, who has been very helpful and neutral, but also the respondent keeps messing around with in respect with lies and none clear information in order to have a fair settlement.

When I didn't have my Immigration status through yet and my ex employer wanted to settle (they wanted me to withdraw all claims) they started their offer with £500, currently they offered a "without prejudice" £5000 (on a commercial basis), but that is because they now saw my immigration status has now been confirmed that I always had the right to work. I submitted this infor to the Judge who then accepted this as evidence.(he had previously sisted the case awaiting on my immigration status)

 

My grounds are here:

1) I was unfairly dismissed because, when you have an open and ongoing application/ appeal with the HO your rights continue as they were attached to your previous visa, ie right to work and create business,

Also unfair because, its not for me to prove the dismissal was unfair, it is for my ex employer to rove that that they fairly dismiss me. They could of Investigated my immigration status a bit more and instead decided to assume I had no right to reside in the UK

2) I raised a grievance into the race discrimination which my employer decided to ignore at any attempt I made to raise it, therefor the grievance was never carried out and still open and ongoing, therefore it is not time barred- taking the circumstances of how things happened (to support this, I had made a detailed explanation of my claims to add to my ET1 and already submitted it to ET. (oh gosh! my fingers hurt)

 

Based on all the info above (please ask questions if you need) how much should I be settling for?

 

what calculations should I be using to see how much my case is worth?? what are my success rates? How an I go Pro-bono ( you need to understand we have a family and losing my job has been a financial nightmare!-not to mention the mentally/physically draining battle) I am on anti -depressants.

 

Please help, any advise is appreciated, and please dont be judgmental towards me , I have never cheated, my visas have always been up to date and I have always worked and paid my NI and taxes into the UK.- I think I have suffered enough already.

 

Before hand,

 

Thank you very much.

 

Ps: I do have further evidence but this is retained by my partner who works for my ex employer, he currently has all my conversations with him via an IM system at work, in where I told him about the racial comments while they were happening! ie all mocking, name calling, names of the people involved etec. Can I use this evidence if the Respondent fails to provide me with it (they have dragged their feet with their internal investigation outcome, I have now asked for an order which the judge says he will consider if the Respondent fails to update me on the outcome of the Investigation)?

[Emmzzi]

This is an epic read.

 

Can you summarise the main points please?

[panxa]

This is an epic read.

 

Can you summarise the main points please?

 

Lol, sorry for the lenght.

Main points:

1)Raised a Grievance back in Oct 2012 on race discrimination grounds and was ignored.

2)Fell pregnant December 2012! and then was ill and absent as a result of then pregnancy related illnesses.

3) My second application for permanent residence in UK was declined and my employer the dismissed me on grounds that I was unable to provide evidence of my right to work in the UK in order to comply with the immigration, nationality and asylum act 2006.

 

I believe I was dismissed because I complained about race discrimination and then fell pregnant and was taking time off for sickness and appointments and not because of my ongoing immigration matter.

 

How much is my case worth in order to create a settling figure in my head?

 

How much should I be settling for?

 

What are my chances of success?(.none of my claim elements have been struck off)

 

Thank you:)

[steampowered]

Did you have the right to work in the UK when you were dismissed? This is the part I don't follow. It will be central to your claim whether or not you had the right to work in the UK during the period while your appeal was being decided, or whether you were legally required to leave the UK as soon as the Home Office rejected your application (but had the right to return when it was successfully appealed).

[Emmzzi]

I agree with steam powered, important question. Have you also checked the advice here for employers?

https://www.gov.uk/check-an-employees-right-to-work-documents

[panxa]

Did you have the right to work in the UK when you were dismissed? This is the part I don't follow. It will be central to your claim whether or not you had the right to work in the UK during the period while your appeal was being decided, or whether you were legally required to leave the UK as soon as the Home Office rejected your application (but had the right to return when it was successfully appealed).

 

The HO refused to issue me with a certificate of application, and when my ex employer asked the employee checking service offered by HO they failed to confirmed either or my right of work. The main point is not weather I was or not entitled to remain in UK( HO made mistake in law whilst looking at application) is about whether the employer had investigated enough into my case. Under the UkBA rules it states: that's whilst an application or appeal is being decided your rights continue as stated on previous visa as long as an application was made before the expiry date. So based on that, what are my rates of success and how much is my case worth as I'm being ask to consider settling.

 

Thank you

[smokejumper]

Your case is a bit sketchy in my opinion.

 

Did you not bring all this up in the discipline procedure?

 

£5000 they offered is only min it would cost them to defend, this does not mean they think you have a good case.

 

I know its a brief account of the alleged racism, but I don't think asking about the tents and water is racist, just asking questions without thought, also not very tactful. You needed to tell them you were offended and then they should have apologised, promised to be more careful and that it wasn't intended to be racist.

 

In my experience with the ET process, you need to have an absolute cast iron case and evidence to the point that a 5 year old would agree with you.

 

Did you appeal to the internal discipline?

 

It also looks like they did try to investigate your status and probably acted fairly on the info they had. I don't think you can hold them liable for the HO cock up.

 

However Have you tried writing and explaining to see if they would reinstate you, or ask acas to put it to them ie: I'll take the £5000 and my old job back. Acas don't want it to go to an ET.

Edited February 25, 2014 by smokejumper
speelin

[panxa]

I agree with steam powered, important question. Have you also checked the advice here for employers?

 

Hi Emmzi,

 

I just replied to steempowered.

Also, I did check and read all the the UKBA guide to employers for preventing illegal workers.

 

At the commencement of my employment I presented my ex employer with the right residence card, my status was not an leave to remain status. This guide also makes reference to the employee checking service of the UKBA to employers, which my ex employer failed to used prior to my suspension, not until my MP personally wrote to them advising them of this service. " its an employer's obligation to use this service, not an employee"

 

May I also remind anyone that, my employment tribunal is not going to establish weather I was entitled to or not to work in the UK (although, I repeat, my rights continued as previous visa while appeal was in due course, information provided by UKBA website, Home Office has rules, and their rules are not law and obviously my immigration case was an exceptional case and they failed to comply with their own rules when looking at my application) its to decide fair or unfair dismissal, please see burchell vs bhs case.

 

So, I am going back to my original question, if anyone can shed some light into how much is my case worth in order to settle?

and what shall I do if the Respondent doesnt want to provide me with thir internal investigation into my Race discrimination element? (already asked for an order which Judge said he will consider)

 

Thanks again.

[panxa]

Your case is a bit sketchy in my opinion.

 

Did you not bring all this up in the discipline procedure?

 

£5000 they offered is only min it would cost them to defend, this does not mean they think you have a good case.

 

I know its a brief account of the alleged racism, but I don't think asking about the tents and water is racist, just asking questions without thought, also not very tactful. You needed to tell them you were offended and then they should have apologised, promised to be more careful and that it wasn't intended to be racist.

 

In my experience with the ET process, you need to have an absolute cast iron case and evidence to the point that a 5 year old would agree with you.

 

Did you appeal to the internal discipline?

 

It also looks like they did try to investigate your status and probably acted fairly on the info they had. I don't think you can hold them liable for the HO cock up.

 

However Have you tried writing and explaining to see if they would reinstate you, or ask acas to put it to them ie: I'll take the £5000 and my old job back. Acas don't want it to go to an ET.

 

Hi Smokejumper,

 

-I never had a disciplinary (or unless you call the initial meetings disciplinary, HR was never present)- I had not written warning either or anything, just verbal questioning. I did however reminded the respondent whilst on appeal against my dismissal that I had raised a grievance in the past and it was not carried out/ignored. Then, the respondent decided to investigate (I was already dismissed)

- Race discrimination: Define discrimination?? the tents and water comments are just one example-I can be a bit more specific : Every single day my colleagues would pick a word that to them, I pronunciated it *funny*(yes, I did ask them in one occasion that these hurt me) they would then mock me for it, say I speak funny, other occasions they would ask me to say specific words in order to provide them with entertainment. If this was being asked to someone from India, Pakistan, Italy, Iran, etc would it not be racist/offensive. why would you treat someone less favorable because of where they come from? Also, yes I do have very tangible evidence, emails, witness statements, etc. and hence why the respondent does not want to release this info to tribunals (they have openly admitted to ACAS they dont want to disclose this Info)

One of the emails I am asking is from my manager:

Why dont you shut the F up? how does your partner put up with you.(if you read more you will see I was signed off work for a few days between Xmas and new years celebrations, so raising grievance against my manager the was physically impossible)

 

-Unfortunately, after all this ordeal, I have little desire to go back and face my colleagues, managers and so on, I feel physically sick going back to the very building were I nearly had a miscarriage. So Reinstatement is not something i would consider.( I have evidence from doctors to confirm bleeding, stress, panic attacks due to work ordeal- this info has already been given to Tribunals)

 

We are talking about a big International Financial company- you would think that if they hold licences to employ foreign nationals, they would know Immigration procedures a bit more proactively, or at least seek the right legal advise from the very first point of doubt.

 

£5000 is little bit more than it would cost the respondent to defend their case in a 3 to 4 day hearing? how much do lawyers charge on that basis?

 

If the respondent is so confident that based on info they had from HO(which i again repeat, was ambiguous and misleading) they had the right to dismiss me and hence protected of discrimination based on preg and victimizing, then why do they want me to withdraw? i dont get it. (or does every single case needs to be withdraw)

 

cheers!

[smokejumper]

Well first off, sounds like the discipline process was not carried out correctly.

 

How ever they may have dismissed you due to their concerns over your status, so that would not have been a discipline case.

 

Now you go into depth with your allegations, I apologise and agree it is racism and bullying, going well beyond light hearted office banter.

 

Are you representing your self or do you have counsel .

 

Four day hearing, I was quoted £22000.

[smokejumper]

Just had another quick look, has the respondent said anything about the time limit, although you mention the grievance is still outstanding, I believe the clock starts from the discriminating event.

[panxa]

Just had another quick look, has the respondent said anything about the time limit, although you mention the grievance is still outstanding, I believe the clock starts from the discriminating event.

 

Thank you smokejumper,

 

if they had reasons to believe i had no right to work, where is their evidence to confirm I didnt have such right"? I will challenge always that i never lost such right and having documenst to show the latter is irrelevant: *Possession of a registration certificate as referred to in Article 8, of a document certifying permanent residence, of a certificate attesting submission of an application for a family member residence card, of a residence card or of a permanent residence card, may under no circumstances be made a precondition for the exercise of a right or the completion of an administrative formality, as entitlement to rights may be attested by any other means of proof*

 

And you are right in asking, the respondent did say in their ET3 form that I should be time barred, however, lets look at the factors of why such delay ie Manager ignored my grivance, fell pregnant, fell ill, more time off, then Immigration appeal...The judge has not struck out any of the elements of this claim after receiving ET3.

 

£22000 is a lot! 5k doesnt even cover it then. Imagine if respondent is due to pay any awards as well.

 

I was on annual salary of £17.443, My baby is now 6 months and so I lostmy right to claim SMP- a big lose for a family. The least I would like is the amount of SMP I would of had if I had continue employment and injury to feelings.

 

I think I would be ready to settle without taking into consideration Race and Preg/Sex but I dont want to be better off...what amount is reasonable(they keep pushing me through Acas for me to say an amount) They also keep putting deadlines in their offers( I think they are irrelevant)

when should I stop negotiating? Right now, the Respondent, after much dragging their feet, has told the Tribunal that "they have concluded their internal investigation with Reg to my Grivance"(now they call it grivance-they first denied there was any grievance raised) Based on that, the tribunal wrote today stating that both parties "have 14 days, from the date of the letter to the claimant from the respondent with the outcome of her grievance, to advise the tribunal their position"

 

Now, I dont know, when the respondent would like to write to me and give me the outcome of my grivance. They said it has been concluded, what is reasonable timing to receive such response before I ask the judge to use my order?

 

Sorry there is a lot in my case, and i have certainly had a lot of time to study a bit into it(im not expert) but I have been a victim, I have never been disciplined before or dismissed, I feel hard done by and I have every right to feel like it I think.

 

Ta again!

[panxa]

Thank you smokejumper,

 

if they had reasons to believe i had no right to work, where is their evidence to confirm I didnt have such right"? I will challenge always that i never lost such right and having documenst to show the latter is irrelevant: *Possession of a registration certificate as referred to in Article 8, of a document certifying permanent residence, of a certificate attesting submission of an application for a family member residence card, of a residence card or of a permanent residence card, may under no circumstances be made a precondition for the exercise of a right or the completion of an administrative formality, as entitlement to rights may be attested by any other means of proof*

 

And you are right in asking, the respondent did say in their ET3 form that I should be time barred, however, lets look at the factors of why such delay ie Manager ignored my grivance, fell pregnant, fell ill, more time off, then Immigration appeal...The judge has not struck out any of the elements of this claim after receiving ET3.

 

£22000 is a lot! 5k doesnt even cover it then. Imagine if respondent is due to pay any awards as well.

 

I was on annual salary of £17.443, My baby is now 6 months and so I lostmy right to claim SMP- a big lose for a family. The least I would like is the amount of SMP I would of had if I had continue employment and injury to feelings.

 

I think I would be ready to settle without taking into consideration Race and Preg/Sex but I dont want to be better off...what amount is reasonable(they keep pushing me through Acas for me to say an amount) They also keep putting deadlines in their offers( I think they are irrelevant)

when should I stop negotiating? Right now, the Respondent, after much dragging their feet, has told the Tribunal that "they have concluded their internal investigation with Reg to my Grivance"(now they call it grivance-they first denied there was any grievance raised) Based on that, the tribunal wrote today stating that both parties "have 14 days, from the date of the letter to the claimant from the respondent with the outcome of her grievance, to advise the tribunal their position"

 

Now, I dont know, when the respondent would like to write to me and give me the outcome of my grivance. They said it has been concluded, what is reasonable timing to receive such response before I ask the judge to use my order?

 

Sorry there is a lot in my case, and i have certainly had a lot of time to study a bit into it(im not expert) but I have been a victim, I have never been disciplined before or dismissed, I feel hard done by and I have every right to feel like it I think.

 

Ta again!

 

" I dont want to be better off" . I meant I dont want to be in a worse/lose income position -

[panxa]

Well first off, sounds like the discipline process was not carried out correctly.

 

How ever they may have dismissed you due to their concerns over your status, so that would not have been a discipline case.

 

Now you go into depth with your allegations, I apologise and agree it is racism and bullying, going well beyond light hearted office banter.

 

Are you representing your self or do you have counsel .

Four day hearing, I was quoted £22000.

 

 

I am representing myself, only advise so far has been CAB, all decisions have been based on my research and some advise.

 

I dont qualify for legal aid and I cant afford legal rep.(I have 2 children, no spare cash)

[smokejumper]

Well you can look at it as if you were made redundant and work out what they would have given you then or calculate your loss in money that you would have got with the smp, whichever is greater (imo).

 

Injury to feeling, would have to have good medical documentation and prove the bleeding etc. was due to stress put under, you may need an expert witness, they would probably want you to see there expert witness to disprove it

 

A few people would disagree, but don't put too much hope in the ACAS, I personally don't like them, they will be wanting to stop this going to an ET and although no bias, tend to try and talk you into a settlement, the employer may not have really been interested, thats why acas want a figure from you to try and get it started, I tell them to stop calling me unless they have a solid figure.

 

ET is a lot of hard work also there will be CMD and PHR's where the respondent will try to contest the et's jurisdiction, there are a few tactics to get it kept even though out of time. the fact that the ET3 has gone through the system is not meaning you have a strong case.

 

How can they have concluded the grievance with out you being involved?

 

I can't be bothered with all the maths, so I would pick a figure say £40000 and see what happens, if they come back with 20, try 30 let them think they gained something.

 

any how, wait for more advise, you might like other ideas better.

[Emmzzi]

1. They contacted the home office to clarify your status

2. They did not get a clear message that you could work legally

 

Employers can get thousands of pounds in fines for employing under those circumstances.

 

Your position is weak and I would not push for much more on the dismissal; You may wish to check the wording does not preclude a discrimination claim.

[steampowered]

Have I understood correctly that you had the right to work int he UK while your appeal was ongoing? Despite your statements to the contrary I do think that is absolutely fundamental to your claim.

 

I think you need to manage your expectations a bit on compensation. Given that you were only employed since 2012 and you earned 17k, 5000 actually sounds like a very high first offer. I am surprised they went in so high.

 

Have a read of http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/work_w/work_problems_at_work_e/et_employment_tribunals_from_29_july_2013_e/et_valuing_a_claim_e/

[panxa]

I worked for them from 2009.

 

They haven't concluded grievance but concluded internal investigation, thank you for heads up on that.

 

I always retained right of residence and work and continue to do so.

My point is the employer did not carry a thorough investigation.

I was dismissed by manager, I never saw HR through out the entire process.

We already had CMD and my additional details of ET1 were accepted. Et3 has not been amended since then , although attemps have been made.

 

Please read okuoimose vs city facilities.

There are other cases too, this being kinda similar.

 

My employer might of asked HO, but at what stage? And was it concrete info. Just like you said steempower, you have to have cast iron evidence.

 

5k might b high but I have done nothing wrong and I have strong reasons to believe race grievance and pregnancy had to do with dismissal.

The department I worked for is not longer part of the org I was employed by, and dice this department manager was the one dealing with "grievance" and dismissal, I doubt HR has all info they need.

You can't base an ET3 on denying all point and say you had reasons to believe, that's discriminatory.

 

If I don't get a reasonable sum, I will do ET for honor.

 

Thanks for all the help guys.

[steampowered]

You sound very bullish about this. That is a good thing but you do need to be a little bit careful. I don't say this meaning to be negative, but you do need to avoid the temptation to jump to conclusions. Everything point you present to Tribunal needs to be carefully reasoned and justified by basic law.

 

While there is case law in your favour (such as http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2007/1127.html) you do need to have a very careful read of the judgment at http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKEAT/2011/0524_10_2203.html. If the ET finds that the employer had a reasonable belief that you did not have the right to work in the UK then the dismissal would be justified. Pay special attention to the burden of proof in that case - the employer in that case had checked with UKBA and not got a clear answer, hence the dismissal was upheld even though the claimant did have the right to work. When building your case you need to have a special focus on what steps the employer could and should have taken, which they did not take, in order to verify your immigration status.

 

Your case is essentially an unfair dismissal case and there are two types of unfair dismissal: (1) substantive unfair dismissal, (2) procedural unfair dismissal. Much of your posts have focussed around the employer not following a proper procedure. This is not ideal, because of the concept of Polkey reductions. This essentially says that in cases where the employer did not follow a proper procedure, but if they had followed a proper procedure the same result would have been reached or it made no real difference, then your damages should be reduced since you would have been dismissed anyway. You need to be ready to deal with this argument. Your starting point should be that the dismissal was unfair because it was not reasonably justified (substantive) AND they did not follow any sort of proper procedure (procedural), and point to precisely what procedural steps they should have taken which they ddi not take.

 

People can and do base ET3s around simply denying everything in the ET1 I'm afraid. Its not best practice but it is allowed.

 

I am still struggling to see the discrimination aspect here I'm afraid. I'm not sure being poked fun of about how you pronounce words is enough to found a serious claim and is also very difficult to prove. The discrimination allegations may be kept for tactical reasons but perhaps bear in this in mind when considering settlement figures.

 

If you get to Tribunal you will need to prepare a schedule of loss detailing what you are claiming. I would have a go at calculating the unfair dismissal award and unfair dismissal compensatory award you are hoping for, based on the link I posted earlier, and perhaps try to settle for that. The calculation is a bit difficult if you are talking about having to claim government benefits at a lower rate than the SMP you would have otherwise received, but you will have to do it so might as well do it now.

 

 

Don't go to ET just for honor. If the employer offers you substantially more than you are actually awarded by the Tribunal, they will argue that continuing with the case was unreasonable and will use that as a basis for asking the Tribunal to order that you pay their legal costs.

[smokejumper]

I did say your claim was a bit sketchy meaning they had cause to dismiss you due to being unsure of your status ( probability )

 

However due to not having all the facts as happens with a forum, I had assumed when you said

 

"Also, yes I do have very tangible evidence, emails, witness statements, etc. and hence why the respondent does not want to release this info to tribunals (they have openly admitted to ACAS they dont want to disclose this Info)"

 

That this would include racist evidence other than the water and tent question.

 

I didn't realise you were on benefits, so you need to do your sums and find out how much your actual loss is, you also need to demonstrate you are actively looking for work.

 

My idea of compensation was based on a strong race discrimination claim, have you been subjected to more racism than the leg pulling and tent/water issue, documented and provable.

[Emmzzi]

I'd say there might be something in a harassment claim on basis of race if there is enough evidence. Possibly creating an oppressive environment. OP, can you summarise the evidence you have please?

[Emmzzi]

If I don't get a reasonable sum, I will do ET for honor.

 

 

ETs don't really exist to punish the "bad guys". Go to your local court and watch some before you make your decision.

[madari]

Hi P

 

 

Sorry to read about your predicament, I have read briefly your issues of concern and it is NOT LOOKING GOOD !!

 

 

First of all forget settlement that is not going to happen.DO NOT TRUST ACAS , how ever sweet sounding they may come across, it is not easy to represent yourself especially in a discrimination case which last for more than a day.

 

Have you issued The discrimination questionnaire rr65??

Tell us which town the main tribunal is going to be held at?[roughly]

How big is the company that you worked for?

 

The above are all relevant questions prior to giving proper advice.

[smokejumper]

Totally agree with Madari, But I was under the impression the questionnaire had been discontinued

 

 

"First of all forget settlement that is not going to happen.DO NOT TRUST ACAS , how ever sweet sounding they may come across, it is not easy to represent yourself especially in a discrimination case which last for more than a day."

[madari]

Hi SJ ,

You are somewhat right in that the questionnaire RR65 was discontinued and was replaced under the 2010 equality act [1 OCT 2010] by a `standard questionnaire` that can be used in all discrimination cases.

 

 

As I mentioned above I only briefly read P`s issues so not sure when the acts of complaint occurred.[before 2010 or after]

 

 

Good luck P