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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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Lloyds/SCM Claimform - old Loan **sorted out by way of consent order **


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Hi again,

i've recieved all my replies. Basically CPR 31.14 (very late) request consists of a 'copy of the loan agreement', no DN, no FD.

I've recieved a reply to CPR 18 request which confirmed my suspicions. They do not know the date of the loan agreement. I'd also asked them if they held a copy of the loan agreement (i asked this as i had not had a response to my CPR 31.14 request). They confirmed they had sent a copy of the loan agreement under section 78 and there is no requirement for them to send the original.

I never asked under S78 (it came as my cpr 31.14 request) ,i'm aware there's a slight mistake there anyway.

 

There was a slight crossover with the timing of me recieving the late 31.14 request and me asking part 18 questions.

 

Further to the part 18 request they want to hurry me along with submitting my Income and expenditure they want to know which way they are going and if they need to ask the court to allocate a hearing.

 

I have filled in a income/ex form with CCCS (step change), i do have another outstanding debt of a credit card. Total debt 10k. The outcome of the CCCS form is that i need to go on a DMP, i can do that with them as its free. I'm guessing i'm to far down the line now though ? My payments to creditors (2) would total £80 a month.

I'll send it off to them anyway.

 

Anyone got any guesses as to what will happen next? I've filled in the DQ and the mediation form that i will accept mediation. I get the feeling that the sols want to rush through some sort of consent/order or what ever.

 

Anyone else been in a similar position,any advice at all ?

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they replied to your requests, thats good.

as yours is an internet application post 07, an accurate recon would prob suffice? double check though.

allocate a hearing for what?

assuming they have also requested mediation, then there will be the courts mediation service. opportunity then to come to a mutual arrangement if desired. even if that is unsuccessful, can still negotiate. you don't have to send them your full IE details at this stage if you don't want to. could negotiate on what you can afford per mth as per the cited IE.

at this stage a monthly payment arrangement would usually be by way of a consent/tomlin type order?

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I'm happy to give them my IE and lay my cards on the table. Problem i see (or maybe i'm making it up in my own head) is that i still have another creditor (who has not taken me to court yet), so i'd assume payments have to be spread fairly ? As such, i don't have a "proposal", i'd prefer them to make one based on my IE. We may stalemate on this, so thats where the Mediation will come in hopefully. I'll put all this in the letter (if they don't read it here first !! :lol: )

 

The agreement is a very bad reconstruct, and thats putting it mildly. Firstly if i scanned it as is there is no way you would identify me or my address, the boxes for figures as so distorted compared to the figures within it that it just looks really wrong. There are timed and dated marks (top left hand corner) of i presume when it was faxed (2010) and yet the latest terms and conditions have been overlaid. or appear to be. They state Lloyds banking group, whereas i know they used to say Lloyds TSB Plc. And apart from that you can tell its all been hoofed together.

 

I'll get the letters off to them and see where we go.

 

They'll still have to address the issue of the counter claim though. WOuld it be more helpful if i was to detail more what my counterclaim is about in here for some advice?

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Agreed, if you let us know what you intend to counterclaim for that would be good :)

 

You are correct, if you have other creditors, your disposable income should be shared pro rata between those creditors. It looks to me as though this creditor taking you to court is attempting to prioritise their claim over your others.

 

Do you own your home ? They might be attempting to obtain a charging order.

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PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Sorry if i never made it clear, i have already counterclaimed.I done that when i filed off my defence. They have not addressed this yet. I have claimed for a modest sum in compensation for breach of statutory duty under BCOBS.

 

It relates to them taking a loan payment from my current account (administered by the same claimant), in breach of the loan terms and conditions and putting me into an unauthorised overdraft for it . Then piling on charges ontop of charges whilst i was ,and told them, i was in financial difficulty. (Out of interest i'd never had an unauthorised overdraft in my life).

 

It took them 10 months to finally refund the charges, the account was closed and i was still left a bill of £400 plus, which doesn't add up to any letters or figures provided by them.Nor the statements i have left, they never sent any after they closed the account even when charges where added on. They washed their hands of it and told me to contact the FOS.

 

How long have they got to respond to counterclaim, it was recieved by the Court on the 6th November ? And i know they have recieved my defence which was served on the Court on the same date 6th November.

 

I do own my own home, so it maybe a charging order they're after?

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They will have the same amount of time as you did to respond to their claim.. which is 28 days.

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Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

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Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

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BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

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Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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They have 14 days to respond (AoS is not applicable to PT20s) ...normally a response should be made with the claimants response to the defence.(within the standard 28 days) if they fail to respond the claim is stayed.

Liability then rests with the defendant Part 20 claimant to lift the stay and proceed with the counter claim....its then up to the claimant to attack the application and respond or suffer default judgment for the defendant part 20 claimant.

 

Regards

 

Andy

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Practice Direction 7C point 1.4 (3A) eliminates the requirement to attach the documents to the Particulars of Claim when they are issued by MCOL CCBC.So there is no requirement to present any documentation pre claim.

 

Look at CPR 1 Overriding Objective :-

 

http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part01

 

Then consider that this debt has not been assigned to a third party (albeit you have made payments which may have not been accounted for).

 

The agreement is relatively new 2010 so I would state that 99% they will have the correct paperwork.

 

Creditors are not required to retain a hard copy of the Default Notice...just proof that one was served from their internal systems.

 

Have you ever requested a copy of the loan agreement by way of a section 77 request?

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

Hi Andy, many thanks for all your advice. As it goes the claimant has neither a copy of my credit agreement(they don't evem know what date it was) , a copy of a DN notice, or a Final demand. I could scan you a copy of what they produced as a CCA and without any redaction you wouldn't identify me. It looks like i'm the 0.01% that you didn't account for.

If i'd of stuck to the info in the sticky i'd of asked for the claim to be struck out if they didn't comply. Based on you saying they may send a barrister to resist such an action i never followed through with my request. Bad move on my part.

 

I've submitted a defence, one i now know i needn't have done. Even on the flip side, even if they had all the docs then they wouldnt of sent a barrister (in my opinion) they'd of just complied or been struck out. Well what if they did indeed have them? Then they'd of complied.

 

Luckily for me my defence leaves a lot of doors open to me and there are still other avenues open to me for them to produce the particulars of claim. I think your advice Andy was bad. It goes against the advice in the sticky too.And seeing as you are respected here as a legal guru and you advise different it leaves posters in a quandry, (or at least me).

 

I ignored the sticky advice over yours as the sticky is old and your advice was current.

 

Leaving aside what i feel. The forum should should do something about a situation wherby there is a sticky for advice then the 'advisors' proffer different advice. And make no mistake, you are proffered as a legal guru.

 

I write this reluctantly as i do appreciate you give your time freely and without obligation, but also i write it as some one taking your advice and i heeded the reference to you being some sort of expert. And its left me with a problem.

 

Also i guess that as any thread have loads of views i find it hard to believe that many people reading them have not had similar experiences, and there is no answer as to ........example...what might happen?

100+ views and not a response? Maybe everyone who has been to court and read has no info to share? So who's reading the posts?

I've tried to ask my questions as..what are my options, so to get a wider view .

 

Notwithstanding what i've said i'll keep this thread updated, even if its an example of what not to do. Yeah i'm feeling miffed. If its not enough to deal with people chasing your arse the last thing you need is independants having a nip at it too.

 

As an aside i'm over 50, i'd had my bank account for well over 20years without a problem, probably over 30 years to be honest. Yes i got a loan, yes i got into difficulties. Yes i contacted everyone and told them. Somehow Lloyds shut down on me totally. I opened another bank account and to date have had no problem. Where might the problem lie on balance of probabilities ?

Maybe i've just lost my marbles and decided to mess about with the only bank account i held in my whole life and have now started a new one as i'm fickle?

 

Ok i'm ecxasberrated by the whole thing, and worried.

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Hi Andy, many thanks for all your advice. As it goes the claimant has neither a copy of my credit agreement(they don't evem know what date it was) , a copy of a DN notice, or a Final demand. I could scan you a copy of what they produced as a CCA and without any redaction you wouldn't identify me. It looks like i'm the 0.01% that you didn't account for.

If i'd of stuck to the info in the sticky i'd of asked for the claim to be struck out if they didn't comply. Based on you saying they may send a barrister to resist such an action i never followed through with my request. Bad move on my part.

 

I've submitted a defence, one i now know i needn't have done. Even on the flip side, even if they had all the docs then they wouldnt of sent a barrister (in my opinion) they'd of just complied or been struck out. Well what if they did indeed have them? Then they'd of complied.

 

Luckily for me my defence leaves a lot of doors open to me and there are still other avenues open to me for them to produce the particulars of claim. I think your advice Andy was bad. It goes against the advice in the sticky too.And seeing as you are respected here as a legal guru and you advise different it leaves posters in a quandry, (or at least me).

 

I ignored the sticky advice over yours as the sticky is old and your advice was current.

 

Leaving aside what i feel. The forum should should do something about a situation wherby there is a sticky for advice then the 'advisors' proffer different advice. And make no mistake, you are proffered as a legal guru.

 

I write this reluctantly as i do appreciate you give your time freely and without obligation, but also i write it as some one taking your advice and i heeded the reference to you being some sort of expert. And its left me with a problem.

 

Also i guess that as any thread have loads of views i find it hard to believe that many people reading them have not had similar experiences, and there is no answer as to ........example...what might happen?

100+ views and not a response? Maybe everyone who has been to court and read has no info to share? So who's reading the posts?

I've tried to ask my questions as..what are my options, so to get a wider view .

 

Notwithstanding what i've said i'll keep this thread updated, even if its an example of what not to do. Yeah i'm feeling miffed. If its not enough to deal with people chasing your arse the last thing you need is independants having a nip at it too.

 

As an aside i'm over 50, i'd had my bank account for well over 20years without a problem, probably over 30 years to be honest. Yes i got a loan, yes i got into difficulties. Yes i contacted everyone and told them. Somehow Lloyds shut down on me totally. I opened another bank account and to date have had no problem. Where might the problem lie on balance of probabilities ?

Maybe i've just lost my marbles and decided to mess about with the only bank account i held in my whole life and have now started a new one as i'm fickle?

 

Ok i'm ecxasberrated by the whole thing, and worried.

 

 

 

Even if you had asked the claim to be struck out there is no guarantee it would have been. I think you're being harsh.

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So are you saying Andy has giving bad advice or the sticky is wrong?

 

Thats what i'm after clarity on. They can't both be right?

If Andy says its a risk to follow through a CPR request with an action to stay/strike out whatever then the sticky advice should be updated to reflect that.

Whats the point in someone reading that sticky them to find out later that there's a risk and really you've wasted your time.

In my own case i should of stuck it out as they have nothing, and i've defended.

I'm sick of reading and worrying, i feel about to give up or get a brief !!

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Oh, the other thing...its said here...."they don't have to produce a copy of the DN". Again whats the point of asking for it then?

 

 

It isn't a case of them "not having to produce a copy" of the DN. They simply wont have kept a copy. They are template letters in which variable information is input. Probably done remotely by a computer programme. They should however, be able to produce their communication log/diary of events - which shows that a template has been produced on such and such a day.

 

It is actually in your favour if they are unable to produce an exact copy of what they say they sent you, inasmuch as they will not be able to say with absolute certainty that the details such as the arrears value, the remedy date, or even the inclusion of statutory wording.. was correct.

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Ok, well the AQ has been sent off. I sent a N268 to sols for them to prove the docs at trial, even though they answered in the negative for the DN and FD. I didn't want to get to the stage later on and find i missed a chance to ask them to prove. Also asked them to prove the agreement that they are unsure what date it was made on.

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Even if you had asked the claim to be struck out there is no guarantee it would have been. I think you're being harsh.

 

Yes maybe i sound harsh, i don't mean to be. I just find it hard to believe , or rather understand, that so many people when i read all the other threads, have been in the same or similar situations. No one seems to post up even an experience...don't do that i tried that, don't do this or this'll happen..... its really left to a few guys who know the procedures. I'm aware people are cautious about telling you what to do, no one seems to offer options/outcomes? Maybe its more realistic just to ask for the claim to be stayed until they comply, no one seems to want to discuss?

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Guest Angel235

I think they will rely on the docs they have provided and if you disagree then it will go to trial where the judge will decide if they do or not

 

As you have sent the dq now it will go to a hearing unless you agree to settle?

 

Well that's what I think will happen I'm no legal expert!!??

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Yes maybe i sound harsh, i don't mean to be. I just find it hard to believe , or rather understand, that so many people when i read all the other threads, have been in the same or similar situations. No one seems to post up even an experience...don't do that i tried that, don't do this or this'll happen..... its really left to a few guys who know the procedures. I'm aware people are cautious about telling you what to do, no one seems to offer options/outcomes? Maybe its more realistic just to ask for the claim to be stayed until they comply, no one seems to want to discuss?

 

I know, right? It's almost as though practising law required expertise, skills and experience that only a few people actually possess. At the end of the day you must have known that you were not going to get the best legal advice from a public forum run by volunteers who are not supervised by lawyers. You are and always were at liberty to actually pay for legal advice elsewhere.

 

This does raise an interesting and, frankly, at what point are some people on the forum practising law without being insured, regulated or accountable for their mistakes?

Edited by Andyorch
Personal reference removed
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Guest Angel235

Also do you feel brace enough to stand up in court in front of a judge and barrister and fight your corner because the site team will not be there to guide you

 

And all this case law people reel off when asked in court to explain do you think you could?

 

It's very easy I guess for people to say do this wrote that recite that but it all comes down to ,' do YOU (US) understand it?

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I think they will rely on the docs they have provided and if you disagree then it will go to trial where the judge will decide if they do or not

 

As you have sent the dq now it will go to a hearing unless you agree to settle?

 

Well that's what I think will happen I'm no legal expert!!??

 

Well i've opted for the mediation service as well, i'd prefer to sort it rather than going to a trial. Mediation will address my counterclaim too ? Theres over £500 gone adrift from my current account ?

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Also do you feel brace enough to stand up in court in front of a judge and barrister and fight your corner because the site team will not be there to guide you

 

And all this case law people reel off when asked in court to explain do you think you could?

 

It's very easy I guess for people to say do this wrote that recite that but it all comes down to ,' do YOU (US) understand it?

 

I've had success doing it at a Magistrates for motoring charges with success so i don't feel too daunted by it. I'm ok with the research i've done, its just if they take me off on a tangent i might be lost.

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