Bailiff for business rates - turned up demanding 10,000 or he takes goods tomorrow - help please

[Surfer01]

Hi

I have returned to my works to a letter from a bailiff for business rates.

I am behind on a payment plan with local authority , now they have instructed bailiffs who are demand full rates for a year almost £10,000.

 

I have phoned the bailiff up asking for a payment plan - he point blank refused,

he said all money (£10k) or they attend tomorrow and remove goods, if that happens - I am out of business, its over for me - I explained this to him and said I would do monthly payments - surely that's better all round, he said they will force entry tomorrow to gain access as he has already made peaceful entry - when he delivered letter.

what can I do - ?

 

I though maybe a change company name or new company formation so rates from today onwards in a different company name :- the liability on the existing company would only Be April to Now - reducing debt to around £3,500

If I had the money I would have paid , we are struggling at the moment but can do £1000 month

maybe we could pay arrears £2000 ish to council

there are plenty of assets - just no cashflow.

 

If they are taken -I am screwed, they will go for scrap value and I will be out of business.

 

any help please ?

Can you confirm whether the business a limited company or sole trader?

Edited August 15, 2013 by Surfer01

[hallowitch]

What bailiff firm is this ?

how much of the £10k is business rates and how much is bailiff fees ?

[ploddertom]

"Rates are calculated over a 12 month period and by demanding payment in full , I am in effect paying in advance for services not yet provided,

I offered to pay the current arrears, 1 month in front and ongoing monthly payment installments but they will not accept part payment and a plan,"

 

Your rates are calculated on a yearly basis which is how you get the sum that is asked for. However they are due in full on 1 April each year & as a dispensation you are allowed to pay in instalments which is why when you fail to pay the whole sum then becomes payable on demand.

[Clunks]

Obviously we have some bailiffs or pro bailiff supporters on here .

its fine - we all have an opinion

 

It is obvious that you have not read the thread.

before you make a judgement or offer an opinion - read the thread

 

Be aware that my intention is not to avoid rates or the debt - i will pay, i just cant pay 10K rates in advance

 

i have offered to pay the current arrears in full and the remaining years liability as and when it falls due -

 

It is wise to remember that I have not occupied the building for full tax year

 

Rates are calculated over a 12 month period and by demanding payment in full , I am in effect paying in advance for services not yet provided,

I offered to pay the current arrears, 1 month in front and ongoing monthly payment installments but they will not accept part payment and a plan,

 

Why is it considered acceptable for the Bailiff to say

" Pay up the 10k immediately or I will force entry and remove your goods- i am not accepting a part payment - pay it all or loose your business"

 

Yes - this is really what was said and he even told me that " i am paying in advance for rates on a unit - i will no longer occupy because we will be shutting you down !"

 

When I said - Ive not been in the unit for a full year so I am paying upfront - He laughed at me

He said you could claim any overpayment back off the council - but because your business is closed you will not get it

 

instead of working with me to get paid, they take the stance that its better to force me out of business by insisting on payment upfront for rates -

 

 

So in answer to the previous threads regarding Evasion of business rates

(I strongly suspect these are from bailiffs)

 

THIS is not a con job to evade payment -

its a desperate attempt to save the business and jobs , it is a work around for a win win solution,

My objective is for the rates liability for the year to date (overdue) get paid - they are not in dispute and we can pay them on Monday.

and the rateable liability for the remainder ends up on a structured payment plan with monthly payments that are achievable.

 

I am only on here and in this situation because the stupid bailiff company working with the council find it easier to enforce and intimidate rather than co-operate and mediate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reply

 

I think it's obvious you have failed to realise I was replying to a post slightly further up and was talking about Business Rates avoidance. I, in no way, implied this was what you were doing. I gave my opinion on people hiding behind Limited Companies to avoid paying rates. Indeed i gave you my opinion further up the thread of what the Local Authority may request from you. And for the record I am not, and never have been, a Bailiff.

[timewarp3]

Hi Surfer01

 

it is a limited company,

 

Hallowitch

 

I do not have the breakdown on fees but suspect there is a good £1300+ added

I will request a breakdown on fees, but for now I have the unit on lockdown ..The bailiff is not getting in.

 

Ploddertom

 

I understand your statement on the debt being due on the 1st of April - and that as a dispensation we are allowed to pay monthly.

I would not be in this position if I and followed this business model,

I wish I could charge my customers in advance for work and services I have not yet provided !! - it would be brilliant - no more worries

 

But alas - we cannot:sad:

However if I occupied the unit for 6 months, then I would only owe 50% of the rates & if I left after 4 months I would only owe 33% etc.

Its the concept of the council using the prepayment in full option instructing bailiffs ( Akin to loan sharks) to go in heavy handed.

This is an appalling practice

 

My point is that there is no help or leeway on offer - they would prefer to put me out of business.

 

more worryingly for me though , is the collection techniques involved and my personal experience in this case ,indicates that the council

are actively supporting the Licenced Crooks in intimidating businesses and forcing business to close and people out jobs.

 

How does forcing a company out of business , resulting in the loss of jobs for 8 persons benefit the economy or society in general ?

(staying at home watching Jeremy Kyle, waiting for our dole money so we can go shopping, slipping behind with our mortgages, etc , etc )

 

Surely it makes better commercial sense to keep people employed and a business running - that way we contribute to the economy

and not drain it , people in employment, Businesses paying taxes etc is a better alternative to empty buildings and people claiming benefits.

 

I am disappointed that the council operate like this and also at the low level of protection we have from bailiffs and this course of intimidation

Edited August 15, 2013 by timewarp3

[Clunks]

Problem is you have had ample opportunity to pay via instalments and as you have not done so, things have escalated to the Bailiffs and only payment in full will be acceptable.

 

Regarding the fees being over £1300, please can you provide a breakdown so we can see exactly what has been charged?

 

Which Council and which Bailiff firm is this?

[timewarp3]

Problem is you have had ample opportunity to pay via instalments and as you have not done so, things have escalated to the Bailiffs and only payment in full will be acceptable.

 

Regarding the fees being over £1300, please can you provide a breakdown so we can see exactly what has been charged?

 

Which Council and which Bailiff firm is this?

 

 

Fees not broken down - just the std pre-typed bull**** letter "pay up £10k+ within 48hrs or we come and take your goods -" hand written envelope (unsealed)

handwritten name and phone number - contact me urgently ****

As it is well documented that many Bailiff co's invent fee's and charges we can safely assume their is some creative

accounting within - i will request a breakdown shortly - for now I am not entering into discussion with these bandits unless its to agree on an affordaple payment plan,

I want to remove the immediate pressure - then I will tackle the fees etc .

 

 

We know we are behind in payments ?

although we are late in payment ( 2 months) due to a bad debt making a huge hole in our cashflow -- our local council were writing to our old registered office and not the actual premises

they sent original rates bill to our current premises but appear to have sent reminders and liability order to our old registered office ( we moved reg office more than 12 months ago)

yet the bailiff had the correct address .

when we phoned and explained this - they were dismissive and said they cannot now cancel bailiffs as they have been instructed.

This is absolute Boll##ks - the bailiffs are working for them and they can call it back.

Remember - i am not avoiding payment - i have offered to pay a couple of grand off arrears and a £1500 a month to the bailiffs to discharge this - they have point blank refused to take any payment plan .. this is a brilliant business ethick .. NOT !!

I will be on the councils case today to see/talk to director of finance / restructure a payment plan - im not taking this lightly.

I have shut shop for the time being and placed security in my unit - no one is getting in until this is sorted.

Edited August 16, 2013 by timewarp3

[Surfer01]

Remember - i am not avoiding payment - i have offered to pay a couple of grand off arrears and a £1500 a month to the bailiffs to discharge this - they have point blank refused to take any payment plan .. this is a brilliant business ethick .. NOT !!

I will be on the councils case today to see/talk to director of finance / restructure a payment plan - im not taking this lightly.

I have shut shop for the time being and placed security in my unit - no one is getting in until this is sorted.

Did you put this in writing to the council?

[hallowitch]

the only difference between the enforcement of council tax and NDR is tools of trade are not protected goods everything else is the same including bailiff fees

 

 

to levy goods the bailiff MUST leave a notice of seizure/distress at the time of the levy (This is a legal requirement )

 

 

 

 

the goods listed as levied must be easily identifiable

 

example

a bailiff leving goods in shop lists

 

this list should be no good as it does not identify the goods levied

 

shampoo 30 btls

soap powder 35 pkts

 

this list easily identifies the goods

30 btls John Frieda shampoo 1ltr

30 boxes daz soap powder 25 washes

 

 

have a look at appendix 2

and see the form 7 you should have been left this when the bailiff entered your business premises if he had levied goods

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1988/2050/contents/made

 

with no levy your bailiff fees can legally be no more than £42.50

 

A levy fee on a 10k debt is approx.£158

 

after a levy has been made and you don't pay in full or you default on a payment agreement you will be charged an attendance to remove fee (this fee is reasonable costs ) this fee cant be charged the same day the levy is made on your goods

 

again you don't say what bailiff firm you are dealing with however if the bailiff firm is Equita or Ross & Roberts you may find that Capita are your councils back office provider to administrate and enforce council tax (when you phone your council you could be speaking to a capita employee ) Capita own 2 firms of bailiffs Equita and ross & Roberts

 

this could be why you are getting no help from your council and you have been well and truly shafted with the fees the bailiff is charging

[timewarp3]

well in that case he has no levy

he has not been in except to drop letter off to ask me for contact - so only one bull**** letter asking me to call him

no list,

lads in unit are under instruction to dismember said bailiff if he tries to enter ( we can hide the body parts in our skip )

and charge the bailiff company for disposal - see how thy like our tacktics and fees

 

Yes I have written to the council explaining our offer and proposal.

I also have a local business group applying pressure to the council and if no Joy - I will enter a column in our local paper explaining how

helpful our local council is and advise any potential businesses or developers to seek an alternative location.

why would anyone wish to introduce money and services into a borough that does not identify with and support employment and growth.

 

Im not worried about fees at moment - i can get these back if needed.

im more interested in reducing my dealings and exposure to these cowboy collectors.

 

 

 

the only difference between the enforcement of council tax and NDR is tools of trade are not protected goods everything else is the same including bailiff fees

 

 

to levy goods the bailiff MUST leave a notice of seizure/distress at the time of the levy (This is a legal requirement )

 

 

 

 

the goods listed as levied must be easily identifiable

 

example

a bailiff leving goods in shop lists

 

this list should be no good as it does not identify the goods levied

 

shampoo 30 btls

soap powder 35 pkts

 

this list easily identifies the goods

30 btls John Frieda shampoo 1ltr

30 boxes daz soap powder 25 washes

 

 

have a look at appendix 2

and see the form 7 you should have been left this when the bailiff entered your business premises if he had levied goods

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1988/2050/contents/made

 

with no levy your bailiff fees can legally be no more than £42.50

 

A levy fee on a 10k debt is approx.£158

 

after a levy has been made and you don't pay in full or you default on a payment agreement you will be charged an attendance to remove fee (this fee is reasonable costs ) this fee cant be charged the same day the levy is made on your goods

 

again you don't say what bailiff firm you are dealing with however if the bailiff firm is Equita or Ross & Roberts you may find that Capita are your councils back office provider to administrate and enforce council tax (when you phone your council you could be speaking to a capita employee ) Capita own 2 firms of bailiffs Equita and ross & Roberts

 

this could be why you are getting no help from your council and you have been well and truly shafted with the fees the bailiff is charging

[hallowitch]

have you looked to see if the bailiff is certificated to the bailiff firm

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?377382-Certificated-Bailiff-Register-Updated

[timewarp3]

crooked mob are charging 339.50 on this

no levy

no wp

no brains !!!!

 

rates debt is £8800

 

 

the only difference between the enforcement of council tax and NDR is tools of trade are not protected goods everything else is the same including bailiff fees

 

 

to levy goods the bailiff MUST leave a notice of seizure/distress at the time of the levy (This is a legal requirement )

 

 

 

 

the goods listed as levied must be easily identifiable

 

example

a bailiff leving goods in shop lists

 

this list should be no good as it does not identify the goods levied

 

shampoo 30 btls

soap powder 35 pkts

 

this list easily identifies the goods

30 btls John Frieda shampoo 1ltr

30 boxes daz soap powder 25 washes

 

 

have a look at appendix 2

and see the form 7 you should have been left this when the bailiff entered your business premises if he had levied goods

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1988/2050/contents/made

 

with no levy your bailiff fees can legally be no more than £42.50

 

A levy fee on a 10k debt is approx.£158

 

after a levy has been made and you don't pay in full or you default on a payment agreement you will be charged an attendance to remove fee (this fee is reasonable costs ) this fee cant be charged the same day the levy is made on your goods

 

again you don't say what bailiff firm you are dealing with however if the bailiff firm is Equita or Ross & Roberts you may find that Capita are your councils back office provider to administrate and enforce council tax (when you phone your council you could be speaking to a capita employee ) Capita own 2 firms of bailiffs Equita and ross & Roberts

 

this could be why you are getting no help from your council and you have been well and truly shafted with the fees the bailiff is charging

[hallowitch]

grrrrr I just wrote a long post and lost the lot

 

 

they sent original rates bill to our current premises

 

but appear to have sent reminders and liability order to our old registered office ( we moved reg office more than 12 months ago)

 

yet the bailiff had the correct address .

when we phoned and explained this - they were dismissive and said they cannot now cancel bailiffs as they have been instruct

 

 

am I correct in thinking your old registered office was also your business premises and your new registered office is also your business premises

[Thegreenpimpernel]

Hello Timewarp.

Please ignore the condescending claptrap. (credit to those offering genuine help)

 

If anyone wants to debate the issues mentioned, I'm right here to give a reality check.

 

Timewarp has other things to worry about.

 

1) Yes you can change legal entity. As of the date of change there is a new bill for "New Corp LTD" Arrears stay with "Old Corp LTD"

2) you need to sell your stock and assets to NewCorp. Create a detailed invoice. This is the most important step!

3) I assume you are VAT registered with a rates bill that big? There are VAT implications. Details later.....

4)If the sale of assets puts OldCorp into profit, there will be Corp Tax implications !

5) with no levy, your final bailif bill will be less than £50. The rest is a fictional 'Van / Attendance Fee', it will disapear when challenged.

6) no need to change trading name. If you are currently "Hairstyles LTD" you can be "NewCorp LTD" Trading as "Hairstyles".

7)moral issues? None. You've offered to play fair.

 

Source: Been there, done it. Paid bills. Survived.

 

Cheers

[sgtbush]

however, to do this you need to liquidate the old company,, detailed invoice is fine but the goods sold to the new company must have proof that they paid a fair market price for the goods AND a notable money transaction is made between the companys via the liquidator. if this does not happen and the council get wind of this, they can argue that you, being the director of the company are trying to evade paying by hiding assets, which is a criminal offence.

so you get yourself into a lot of doodoo, as a lot of bailiff firms trawl the forums, as well as fraud investigators for the courts and council.

seen as your case is for a fair amount of money, then to them, its not hard to know what case you are..

 

i strongly advise against this line of conduct......... reallt i do !

[Surfer01]

Hello Timewarp.

Please ignore the condescending claptrap. (credit to those offering genuine help)

 

If anyone wants to debate the issues mentioned, I'm right here to give a reality check.

 

Timewarp has other things to worry about.

 

1) Yes you can change legal entity. As of the date of change there is a new bill for "New Corp LTD" Arrears stay with "Old Corp LTD"

2) you need to sell your stock and assets to NewCorp. Create a detailed invoice. This is the most important step!

3) I assume you are VAT registered with a rates bill that big? There are VAT implications. Details later.....

4)If the sale of assets puts OldCorp into profit, there will be Corp Tax implications !

5) with no levy, your final bailif bill will be less than £50. The rest is a fictional 'Van / Attendance Fee', it will disapear when challenged.

6) no need to change trading name. If you are currently "Hairstyles LTD" you can be "NewCorp LTD" Trading as "Hairstyles".

7)moral issues? None. You've offered to play fair.

 

Source: Been there, done it. Paid bills. Survived.

 

Cheers

If the bailiff has a proper levy on the goods, it will not work.

[Thegreenpimpernel]

Sgtbush.

 

I beg to differ on every point you've made:

 

There's no need whatsoever to liquidate any company. I have three, for genuine trading purposes. They can, and do sell goods and assets to each other at my discretion.

Besides, If you treid to dissolve it could be oppossed / halted by a creditor. (though in reality I doubt it in this case!)

 

There is also no need for evidence of payment. You are talking like its a 'reversible transaction' in a bankruptcy hearing. This is proof of ownership to a bailiff.

 

Bearing in mind we are getting hypothetical here: Its a 'fair amount of money'????? Old corp would owe less than half the bill. (

 

EDIT: The creditor ( the council ) has to pay the winding up petition fees (~£1800) upfront. Then hope to get it's 'share' of any assets AFTER the liquidator has feasted on them.

Usual result: nothing, therefore additional loss of £1800. Consequently most Councils and creditors just walk away and cut their losses. (but not HMRC!)

Edited August 18, 2013 by Thegreenpimpernel

[renegadeimp]

Sounds like some silly fotl or amateur lawyer crap to me.

[Thegreenpimpernel]

For your (hypothetical) information:

 

In reality OP has money available. He can actually use that money to perform an 'real' payment to OldCorp ( for the assets). Old corp can use said money to pay another creditor, I.e. a supplier credit acount. (there is no priority of debt in this scenario)

 

In this scenario he has disposed of assets to pay a debt!

 

In that scenario, OP can actualy apply to dissolve OldCorp. Then honestly and truthfully declare the outstanding debt (£5000 NDR) and lack of assets to companies house. Then walk away....

 

Just saying......

Edited August 18, 2013 by Thegreenpimpernel

[Thegreenpimpernel]

Surfer

 

Agreed, but I don't think they have?

Edited August 18, 2013 by Thegreenpimpernel

[timewarp3]

Surfer

 

Agreed, but I don't think they have?

 

yes - correct. The horrible Bailiff has no levy -

hiding behind the usual barrage of lies, mis information , and the bully tactic bull**** threats .

 

if these clowns had not been the dishonest greedy fee inflating (SWEARWORD) that they are , i would have willingly entered into a repayment plan with them.

As it is we have done exactly what we said.

(Our line of Attack/Defence is exactly on a Par with TheGreenPimpernels)

we sold assets to fund the debt .. Simple solution

Funds from this sale - pay the bailiff co (actually the council)

commercial transaction is valid

All plant and equipment in premises belong to another company - balance sheet reflects this.

Assets sale cost = rates amount bailiff demand -so a valid entry in the accounts system,

New co rents assets to old co --- assets are now safe ---- ALL COMPANIES SHOULD DO THIS - you place assets out of reach and in a place of safety.

 

Our local business forum and councillors helped us out here, they applied pressure to the Rates people, local regeneration people and anyone who would listen, in this case our council have accepted a monthly repayment proposal but insist it is paid to bailiff co. so we pay £2.5k a month for a couple of months

now its just a case of contesting fees .

 

we will change tenancy name and hence billing liabiity next month so a new NDR bill will go out to another Newco

Credit of NDR to old co - for remainder of year -

Payments are then up to date --- old liability then discharged so Bailiffs out of equation.

Then its just a case of keeping my cashflow fluid enough to stay on top of liabilities.

 

Thanks to all non bailiff supporters for your valuable and welcomed help.

To all the bailiffs and their supporters , Go and harass someone else !!

Edited August 18, 2013 by timewarp3

[i hate bailiffs]

council have accepted a monthly repayment proposal but insist it is paid to bailiff co. so we pay £2.5k a month for a couple of months

now its just a case of contesting fees . !!

 

Pay the money direct to the council they can not refuse payment

 

By paying the bailiffs they will make up a reason to charge a van attendance fee £150-£200

They will take there bite before paying the council