London King William St/Arthur St, going north. - Driving into bus lane penalty

[Tanto]

I was driving into London and entered a bus lane and received a penalty. I have checked the area using google maps and street view and would like to know if I can contest it.

 

It happened at the end of London Bridge, going north.

 

There are two lanes going north. At the point of trouble, both lanes have white road arrows indicating "straight ahead". However the left lane then veers left and the straight ahead portion becomes a bus lane.

 

In my case I was misled by the straight arrow thinking it is safe to go straight, and then entered the bus lane and it was too late to brake. There are no other indications that the road ahead is for busses only, the only signs are placed past the entry into the bus lane.

 

I attach two photos so you can see the situation.

 

Can I contest this ticket in any way?

 

Many thanks.

[Michael Browne]

What's the location given on the PCN. It's actually King William St, not London Bridge.

[Tanto]

Yes, you go over London Bridge, drive a bit further on and there it is. On the PCM it says "King William St/Arthur St".

[Newbie21]

Without seeing the PCN, I’m assuming that it was Contravention 34j - Being in a bus lane?

 

If it is this contravention then I was under the impression for it to be a valid CCTV PCN:

 

• This contravention occurs when a non-exempt vehicle is recorded parked, waiting or travelling more than 20m (i.e.3 car lengths) in a bus lane during it’s operational hours.
   
• Images must clearly show the vehicle in contravention waiting, parked or travelling more than 20 meters (i.e. 3 car lengths) in the bus lane.
• Close up of registration plate
• Vehicle travelling in bus lane (or waiting)
• First time vehicle seen travelling/entering (or waiting) in bus lane
• Last time vehicle seen travelling/waiting

 

And

• 
  
• prior to, and after enforcement, record the bus lane signs that the vehicle would have passed proving that the driver at the time the vehicle failed to comply

 

therefore the CCTV camera should be facing the direction that your car was travelling ie your rear registration plate in at least one image/CCTV frame.

 

SOURCE: successful similar PCN appeal case

  

=== 

 

Have you seen the DVD evidence ? You can request it to be sent via post or view at their offices

 

Does the PCN images show the bus lane signage passed?

 

Here’s a case whose Bus Lane appeal was upheld in Jun 2012

 

To view:

 

Go to

http://www.patasregistersofappeals.org.uk/StatReg/

 

Under Parking Adjudicators image, click Search

 

In Case Reference box, insert

2120224343

(this is the successful appeal case number)

 

Scroll down and click Search button

 

You’ll then be able to read the reasons why PATAS agreed with the Bus Lane 34j appeal

 

 NOTE:

I’m not a lawyer etc etc so can’t say whether you’ll win an appeal too.

 

The info I’ve given here is guidance for your appeal, should you wish to take the appeal route and this is all assumption as I haven’t seen your PCN or evidence against you

 

Zoe

 

 

[Tanto]

Hi I am sure there is video evidence of me driving on the bus lane. They have sent me two pictures one with the car's number plates and another on the bus lane just about where it ends.

 

However the blue "bus only" signs are well within the start of the bus lane - is there a requirement that there be advanced signs for bus lanes, eg 30 meters before the actual start of the bus lane?

[Newbie21]

Requesting the video evidence is just for you to see what their camera saw and if you decide to go to PATAS that'll be the council evidence presented

 

Some councils charge to send a video copy via the post

 

If video clearly shows your vehicle driving in an operational bus lane for some distance (in error or not), well you're in a bus lane and have to come up with good reasons why shouldn't pay the fee.

 

The only acceptable reasons are found here at the PATAS website:

http://www.patas.gov.uk/tmaadjudicators/grounds_buslanes.htm

 

You appear to want to appeal using reason 2: There was no breach of the bus lane order/regulation

 

There are other past threads on this forum with CCTV PCN appeals cases that may assist you with your appeal content wording

 

I am in no position to advise you on what to say and can only point you back to my previous post where I outlined, what I found out, what constitutes a valid CCTV PCN.  

 

Did you read the successful appeal case I gave the link to in my previous post?

As I said may or may not work for you. I pointed you there to get a general idea on what goes into a successful appeal 

 

Quote

However the blue "bus only" signs are well within the start of the bus lane - is there a requirement that there be advanced signs for bus lanes, eg 30 meters before the actual start of the bus lane?

 

Evidently you got that information from somewhere therefore suggest only the website/person can answer that question

 

Saying that The Department for Transport 'Know Your Traffic Signs (Official Edition)' pages 32 and 33 show you the current recognized bus lane signage

 

As stated, search this forum and read other members successes or failures with PCN appeals, then decide what you're going to do

 

Don't delay in getting payment or appeal going though or can end up costing you more

 

Zoe

[Tanto]

I have read the case above and the judge said "There are insufficient other warning signs of the restrictions " - which is precisely what I used in my appeal. Considering that driving behind a bus (which I was as shown on the photo) can obscure the "bus only" signs which were positioned after the beginning of the bus lane.

 

Here is my appeal:

1) There are insufficient other warning signs of the restrictions – there are no signs placed before the start of the restrictions.

2) The signs of the restrictions that do exist are placed after the start of the restrictions, and when driving behind a bus you will not likely see them.

3) There are road arrows in close proximity preceding the restrictions, which indicate “forward” therefore are contradicting and misleading, since “forward” is abruptly and without notice contradicted by the restrictions.

 

If it fails, well I will pay the fine, but it is worth a shot as I truly believe the signage is bad. As you have noticed I have avoided using the term "bus lane" because it was not clear if this was a "bus lane" or a "bus gate"...

[Newbie21]

Go for it and give us an update on how you got on (helps other members/readers)

 

I referenced that case, and as you saw even though it's not the bus lane in your PCN, it is a similar bus lane success case.

 

They may give you a rebuttal which is usual

 

If this happens, it's then you can decide whether to pursue further, after weighing up the odds of winning, or pay prior to the increased payment demand deadline

 

 

 

 

[Tanto]

I think I have 14 days in which to make an appear or to pay the half price, else I will have to pay the full price. By the time they reply to me I presume the deadline will be over.

[Newbie21]

Nope!

 

Appealing effectively places your case on hold until you receive a reply

 

You can see posts in this forum on the CCTV PCN procedure in more detail or the actual Council's website

 

Unsure whether it was a Southwark or CityOfLondon council where the alledged contravention took place, so here's CityOfLondon website and here's Southwark website

 

Search those webpages for the relevant bit of payment deadline info you seek

 

For even more info, check the TfL's website too

 

Another viewpoint (if got time and energy) is querying the legality of the CCTV PCN wording

 

Search this forum and similar for more on this The gist is you could argue on the PCN's content ie is the words 'will' and 'may' used incorrectly making the PCN contradictory | whether the camera was authorised to capture your moving vehicle (as seen in the news recently Some cameras captured vehicles illegally) | was it issued under the correct Act etc etc therefore negating the PCN?

 

You can also telephone them and clarify points you may be unsure eg what is your new deadline date? The Council reps that I've spoken to have being mainly helpful

 

Don't throw in the towel just yet!

[timames77]

Hi there, Ive done exactly the same as you, I was behing a bus and didnt realise I was in this bus lane until it was to late, there was no sign beforhand indicating I could go straight ahead. I have appealed and it has been rejected, I can appeal again and it goes to an indepenent adjudicator but Im worried that if its rejected again I will have to cough up the full £130. What was the out come of your appeal? ThanksTim

[timames77]

Hi Tanto, so did you apeal and win or did you end up paying the fine?

[Tanto]

No, I paid £60 or £65 pounds. Hence the rant

 

I think it is well worth fighting it. Unless they have added more signs, there is absolutely no indication until the very last monent when you are actually driving on the lane. Even if you are quick to react, you'd have to brake and try to join the outside lane, probably risking an accident and generally causing more harm than actually driving on this pathetic little bus lane (it is about 60 yards long?)

[timames77]

Ok thank you iI think i will go and take photos there still arent signs beforhand. I weill let you know how i get on. Many thanks for the advise

[frexo]

Can i appeal against a pcn for being in a bus lane that i have paid please ?

[frexo]

Can i appeal against a pcn for being in a bus lane that i have paid please ?

the pcn authority was Notts county Council

[Ken Naden]

Similarly I can remember an instant many years back when I inadvertently drove into a bus lane in error to avoid oncoming traffic especially local buses encroaching on my site of the local road due to parked car on either side of the road and I ended up with a ticket from a overhead road side camera Although I simply paid the fine and did not protest I still thought I had been unfairly treated. Although in your case you followed road signs, this might be another argument for you if it applies.